We All Know Ron Paul Kicks Ass

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Ron Reagan sounding like Ron Paul:

Its even funnier than that, V. Here, Nominal Prospect–who certainly is not old enough to remember Reagan–is posting a film clip about which he understands nothing, to support his candidate. Instead, he offers evidence for his unschooled foolishness.

You, V, may remember that this speech was in Ronny’s General Electric to Barry Goldwater transition (1964), when he supported the conservative laundry list of lower taxes, balanced budgets, small government, etc.

And in 24 years, after his election, Ronny supported foreign interventions (Grenada, Lebanon, Nicaragua, etc. etc.), increased, massive defense spending; and he also lowered some taxes and in so doing, increased the national debt to new records. And the government grew nevertheless. He abandoned all that “Paul-like” crap because, love him or hate him, he had practical goals and they were prioritized: defense, defense, defense, and then, and only then, tax relief and smaller government.

So any attempt by the Paulnuts to enrobe Paul in Ronny’s bloody cloak is a farce, and underscores their youth and ignorance.

(You and Sloth and Mikeyali excepted, of course; not all idealists are fools, I warrant. But some fools mistake crap for ideals.)[/quote]

You’re assuming that I don’t know about the Reagan admins interventionist, big-budget defense policies. Why wouldn’t you stop to confirm before making such an assumption?

Unfortunately, you have failed in your noble effort to “educate” me with your post. Every thing you wrote about, I was well aware of. I read about Reagan’s policies several years ago. I know what his rhetoric was when he campaigned, what he did in office, and how he is perceived by conservatives today. The thing is, it is difficult to reconcile those 3 things. He is a major icon to the right despite the fact that he didn’t fully live up to his own rhetoric.

You’re taking me to be dumber than I am and, in so doing, misunderstanding why I post such videos. I’ll tell you the reason: It’s not to provoke a discussion of Reagan’s “true conservative” credentials. I post it with the full knowledge of his outstanding flaws - especially taken from a libertarian perspective - but nevertheless, the fact remains that he IS seen as “Mr. Conservative” by a great majority of the right.

Ron Paul isn’t going to get anywhere by arguing that he’s “more conservative than Ronald Reagan”, regardless of how true the statement may be. So, the invocation of Reagan imagery is an effort in pragmatism on the part of Paul’s campaign. Understand now?

You have to make compromises when running a political campaign. Every thinking person is well aware of this. I know that Ron Paul is a strict Libertarian Constitutionalist with laissez-faire economic views. When he adopts a moderate position on some issue, such as reducing benefits for the poor, it doesn’t cause me to question his devotion to those beliefs. I understand what he’s doing and why he’s doing it.

If you can’t be pragmatic in politics, you can’t win. And I want Ron Paul to win, because I know that he’s a good man who will do the right things in office. The last thing I want is for him to go down as some sort of martyr who only receives a fraction of the vote due to his uncompromising positions.

He’s already consistent enough with his beliefs - if he can adopt a slightly more moderate stance on the tougher issues, so as to make his platform an easier sell, then I’m all for it. That’s why you see him talking about gradually rolling back the domestic welfare state, even though his libertarian principles would have it abolished outright.

Do you imagine that I’m incapable of reading books? No doubt, I could list a slew of people, places, and events that you would know nothing about - having never experienced them, old as you may be. Forget about age - it won’t save you in this debate. I’m fully prepared to defend my point of view, as I have successfully done many times before.

Playing the “age card” is, really, a piss-poor way of getting your point across in an online forum. For one thing, you do realize that I could come up with a grand list of old farts who take the exact same position as I do on any given issue? How would you respond then, if I merely stood aside and let these venerable surrogates do the talking for me?

I reckon you’d then be compelled to produce a real argument. Perhaps you should do that now, and save me the trouble of digging up old farts to quote. But I’ll do it if you leave me with no other option.

Chomsky on Paul:

He is way off the mark in his claims.

But at least he is smart enough to be consistent with his own stated beliefs, unlike the legions of leftists who are supporting RP solely due to his stance on the war.

Chomsky has no illusions about what Paul would do to the welfare state.

Well, I can’t speak for all the old farts out there who support Ron Paul (although there are a lot, many of them, at least those in my acquaintance, retired or active-duty military), but here is what my old pal Bill Bonner has to say about the matter.

You may remember that Bill is the author of “The Meaning of America,” which I dust off and post from time to time. Not surprisingly, I agree with Bill. Again.


What I Think

Our old friend, Ron Paul, candidate for the Republican Party nomination for President, makes the news from time to time. He’s proving that you can use the Internet to rally followers…to inform people…and to raise money. Bravo…and smooth sailing!

“We’re going to send Ron some money,” we announced to daughter Sophia last night.

“Why would you want to do that, Dad? You’re just wasting your money. Ron Paul is fine. I like him. Or, at least most of what I’ve heard about him. But he can’t win. What’s the point?”

“Winning is over-rated,” we replied. "You know what Gen. Washington said during the Revolution. ‘We can’t guarantee victory, but we can deserve it.’ Well, you can never guarantee anything. As it says in the Bible, ‘the race goeth not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong.’ I guess people meant by that that there is a fair amount of luck involved in everything.

But there’s something else. If you can’t know how things will turn out, what can you do? All you can do is to do the right thing. And I’ll give you another saying, since I’m getting warmed up: ‘Fiat justicia pereat mundus.’ I don’t know if the Latin is correct. But the sentiment certainly is: you follow the law even if the world should perish. I think the idea is the same for all of these things.

All you can do in any situation is the right thing…not necessarily the smart thing. You can’t know what the smart thing is, because you can’t know what tomorrow will bring. But you can pretty much figure out the right thing. So, you do the right thing. You don’t necessarily get what you want. Things don’t necessarily go your way.

But at least you will deserve success. And deserving success is more important than actually getting it. Doing the right thing is more important than doing the thing that turns out to be ‘smart,’ in other words.

“Well, what does this have to do with Ron Paul?”

"He’s the only candidate to come along --practically in my entire lifetime-- who is worth voting for. He doesn’t believe in robbing people with taxes so some people can pursue their own crackpot world improvement project. And he doesn’t believe in going to war unless the country is attacked…and there is a declaration of war by Congress…which is what the constitution requires.

“All I’m saying is that you can vote for Ron Paul…and send him money…with a clear conscience. You haven’t been able to do that for a long time. Better take advantage of it.”


I certainly will. Who knows when I’ll get the opportunity again?

While I will happily vote my conscience (Paul) I still believe that (1) Americans love big government as long as they get to vote (2) it would take an event of biblical proportions to get Americans to give up all their ‘goodies’ like Medicare, SS, corporate welfare, and so forth.

In summary: you can’t have an egoistic (Paul) government with an altruistic population.

Most people think it is right that the rich pay more in taxes, for the simple reason that rich people have more. Most people think it is perfectly moral to FORCE others to help them (look at Katrina). Our population embraces altruism and until they believe otherwise, until they see the evil of altruism, someone like Dr. Paul can’t win.

Hey, Headhunter. We were just talking about old farts.

Seriously, though (and this is just a slight hijack), I would be interested in hearing what sort of event you imagine would induce the majority of Americans to give up their goodies. Katrina’s proportions were pretty biblical, after all.

Would a war do it? In the second World War, Americans were urged to conserve valuable resources that could be used for the war effort. Gasoline and sugar were rationed. In this “war,” we have been urged to consume. To refinance our mortgages. To buy American-made SUVs. Maybe an all-out war on the US homeland would do it, but that hasn’t happened since 1865.

Can we have true liberty in a nation of consumers (and bureaucrats) who fervently believe they are entitled to a soft living at taxpayer expense?

For that matter, do we deserve to have it?

Well, the kids have opened their presents after Santa (aka me) put 'em under the tree at 3 AM.

My point is that our moral compass is based upon a philosophy that is at odds with the spirit of our Constitution. Dr. Paul wants a people who don’t really believe in our Constitution to follow it. Good luck with that.

I suspect that we will have some sort of economic collapse, based upon the total debasement of our currency. There comes a point where ‘Monopoly Money’ no longer functions as a viable currency.

This is bad because people tend to follow what they know when confronted by chaos. They fall back on their training, so to speak. What have they been trained to accept? Government by brute force. They will finally go all the way and establish a world in which I can no longer permit myself to live.

“The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip ought to learn the difference on his own hide — as, I think, he will.” — Atlas Shrugged

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Ron Reagan sounding like Ron Paul:
…a long throat-clearing culminates in nothing…
blah, blah, blah…
…you have failed in your noble effort to “educate” me …
…more rot…
You’re taking me to be dumber than I am…
…a fruitless search for approval ensues…

Ron Paul isn’t going to get anywhere by arguing that he’s “more conservative than Ronald Reagan”, regardless of how true the statement may be. So, the invocation of Reagan imagery is an effort in pragmatism on the part of Paul’s campaign. Understand now?

You have to make compromises when running a political campaign…

If you can’t be pragmatic in politics, you can’t win. And I want Ron Paul to win, because I know that he’s a good man who will do the right things in office. The last thing I want is for him to go down as some sort of martyr who only receives a fraction of the vote due to his uncompromising positions.

…more errant nonsense.

[/quote]

Nominal Prospect, I will not engage in a debate with you, not just because it is futile to separate a child from his teddy-bear of charmed ideas, but because the debate you need to have is with the Other Paulista, LifticusMaximus:

So which is it? His uncompromising “ideals,” or a compromise of what I judge to be utter nonsense. Discuss it with Lifty, not me: it is not hard to imagine True Believers in such a death-defying fight-to-the finish, but I would be amused enough to watch.

To the Paulnuts: What does Paul truly believe–what would he not abandon for the sake of his election? Or is it a Children’s Crusade?

Now, to the other posters, those who profess impatience with government: exactly what do they expect practically to come of this failed coin-dealing obstetrician–Paul–his money, his “ideas” and his candidacy?

The Ron Paul/Reagan comparison just baffles me.

Reagan, a well-known governor from a state that forced him to hone is his skills to appeal to voters beyond a red-meat eating base, was able to sustain an ideological movement while building an enormous coalition throughout his election and administration.

That coalition was impressive - and absolutely necessary if he was going to get any of his ideas put into practical application. Security hawks, fiscal conservatives, supply-siders, blue collar Democrats, traditionalists and baseline conservatives all got in the Reagan tent.

What “coalition” has Paul formed? Going forward, what chances does he have of creating a center-right coalition, which is the only way to get any of his libertarian reforms enacted, even a little bit?

By contrast, Paul’s “coalition” seems to be doing the exact opposite - he and his Paulnuts take great pains to leave out the mainstream, “middle” voter and eschew any type of coalition that Reagan would have worked toward.

Radicalism doesn’t sell - and while Reagan had “Morning in America”, Paul can’t muster much better than “Kookoo for Cocoa Puffs”.

Further, Reagan was the “Great Communicator” - part of his abilities to gain voters’ confidence and cross ideological lines was his strength in communicating to regular voters. Reagan melded charm and substance. Paul, on the other hand, enjoys no such advantage - instead of filling up a room with megawatt personality and crisp rhetoric, Paul struggles to sound important to everyone except his True Believer followers…precisely the folks he needs to form his coalition.

He sounds paranoid about big-government, rather than clever and confident about beating it, as Reagan did. Instead of talking about foreign policy from a position of strength, duty, and gravitas, as Reagan did, Paul informs us that standing guard against totalitarianism is really just the invitation and cause of all the bad things that have ever happened to Americans as a form of karmic punishment - and that narrative goes back to any American war ever in a silly, painfully naive version of an uninformed attempt at a “take that, Establishment!” Poli Sci term paper.

(By the way, if anyone wanted to add yet another hole in Paul’s barely floating craft, some astute journalist should ask him his opinion on the Civil War - the screeching tire sound effect would reverberate from Berkeley to Manhattan.)

Reagan was far from perfect - but he had what it took to be an American president, that is, a president that represented a great many kinds and types of voters across a broad section of America. Paul, frankly, is exactly the opposite - he generates radical intensity among a select group of True Believers and can’t manage more than a chuckle from the rest of America (interestingly, one contributes to the other).

Saying Paul is similar to Reagan is like saying Joey Harrington is similar to Tom Brady - both are white guys who play quarterback, but nothing else is even close.

My biggest problem with Paul? Far from taking America a step closer to “smaller government”, he has taken the smaller-government idea and packaged it as paranoid, unserious, academic, and the province of anti-government yahoos living in the hills. What does that do? Makes left-wing liberalism look like the sane alternative to regular voters. Yikes - and no thanks.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[/quote]

Nice speech, TB.

Who are you voting for?

[quote]lixy wrote:

Nice speech, TB.

Who are you voting for?[/quote]

Difficult to say - if you were familiar with American politics, you’d know we have to wade through a couple of primaries and caucuses to finally see who is left standing.

If I were a one man caucus, I’d be backing Fred Thompson in the GOP. On the Democratic side, I’d push for Bill Richardson.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Difficult to say - if you were familiar with American politics, you’d know we have to wade through a couple of primaries and caucuses to finally see who is left standing.

If I were a one man caucus, I’d be backing Fred Thompson in the GOP. On the Democratic side, I’d push for Bill Richardson. [/quote]

Straw-polls wise, Thompson is indeed the most viable candidate for the GOP (if you exclude Paul – Thompson has 24 wins while Paul has 25). Richardson seems like a lost cause, which is a shame considering he could be 10 times more constructive to the US a Clinton.

I find it extremely hard to believe the American people will elect a pro-war Republican immediately after the two-terms of Bush. I’m not that cynical just yet. But then again, I didn’t think he had a chance at getting a second term either, so…

Seriously though, I’m willing to bet that if Ron Paul doesn’t win, it’ll be a Democrat. If I’m wrong, I’ll quit posting on the PWI board.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

And in 24 years, after his election, Ronny supported foreign interventions (Grenada, Lebanon, Nicaragua, etc. etc.), increased, massive defense spending; and he also lowered some taxes and in so doing, increased the national debt to new records. And the government grew nevertheless. He abandoned all that “Paul-like” crap because, love him or hate him, he had practical goals and they were prioritized: defense, defense, defense, and then, and only then, tax relief and smaller government.


[/quote]

I voted for Reagan. Nice summary.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Straw-polls wise, Thompson is indeed the most viable candidate for the GOP (if you exclude Paul – Thompson has 24 wins while Paul has 25). Richardson seems like a lost cause, which is a shame considering he could be 10 times more constructive to the US a Clinton.[/quote]

Newsflash - Paul is not a viable candidate.

That is because you have an abysmal misunderstanding of American voters and their relationship to Bush. You have no lens other than one of Bush Derangement Syndrome - which most of America, even the ones less enamored with Bush of late, simply don’t share.

You’ve been explained this many, many times - but you remain unencumbered by explanations.

Moreover, you also misunderstand election cycles. Bush isn’t running in 2008 (“wait…I was sure he would declare himself emperor…that is what the ‘independent media’ assured me!!!”), nor are the candidates particularly close to him. You have this illusion that the 2006 Congressional elections represented something they didn’t - simply not the facts on the ground, but I am not that surprised.

The GOP candidate may lose in 2008, no question - but not for the hyperventilating reasons you suggest.

Just plain silly.

Paul won’t win, and suggesting that there is a chance demonstrates you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Further, you seem to indicate that Paul is the only GOP candidate that would have a chance to beat a Democrat. Absurd on its face, the exact opposite is true - he is the least likely to beat a Democrat in a general election.

And, in fact, if we entertain the illusion that Paul were the GOP candidate, nothing would push the US toward a long-lasting Democratic reign than would a Paul nomination, as mainstream voters would punish the GOP for God knows how long for presenting such a feckless, fringe, and ridiculous candidate for a general election.

Hard to take you seriously, Lixy, with this level of commentary.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

Further, you seem to indicate that Paul is the only GOP candidate that would have a chance to beat a Democrat. Absurd on its face, the exact opposite is true - he is the least likely to beat a Democrat in a general election.

And, in fact, if we entertain the illusion that Paul were the GOP candidate, nothing would push the US toward a long-lasting Democratic reign than would a Paul nomination, as mainstream voters would punish the GOP for God knows how long for presenting such a feckless, fringe, and ridiculous candidate for a general election.
[/quote]

Example: Goldwater vs Johnson, and the ensuing Democratic (Congressional) hegemony.

Actually, I think thunderbolt23 just won my votes.

I agree. Only moderate-liberal Republicans can lead the pary, anymore. But, I’m not trying to win this election for the Republican party.

Starting to back off of the story?

"Editors’ Note: The post below, which appeared on The Medium on Monday, contained several errors. Stormfront, which describes itself as a “white nationalist” Internet community, did not give money to Ron Paul’s presidential campaign; according to Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Paul’s campaign, it was Don Black, the founder of Stormfront, who donated $500 to Paul. The post also repeated a string of assertions by Bill White, the commander of the American National Socialist Workers Party, including the allegation that Paul meets regularly with members of the Stormfront set, American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review and others at a restaurant in Arlington, Va. Paul never attended these dinners, according to Benton, who also says that Paul has never knowingly met Bill White. Norman Singleton, a congressional aide in Paul’s office, says that he met Bill White at a dinner gathering of conservatives several years ago, after which Singleton expressed his indignation at the views espoused by White to the organizer of the dinner. “The post should not have been published with these unverified assertions and without any response from Paul.” [Me: Gee, you think? You think you might have tried to verify something yourselves?]
http://themedium.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/24/the-ron-paul-vid-lash/?ex=1199163600&en=7b25470d94ea3b8b&ei=5070&emc=eta1/

More about the meetings between Ron Paul and Neo Nazis at Tara Thai Restaurant in Arlington.

Here is the claim by Bill White.

“Both Congressman Paul and his aides regularly meet with members of the Stormfront set, American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic [sic] Review, and others at the Tara Thai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia, usually on Wednesdays. This is part of a dinner that was originally organized by Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis and Joe Sobran, and has since been mostly taken over by the Council of Conservative Citizens.”

Little Green Footballs, an originator of this claim, has posted FEC documentation showing that Paul has been to Tara Thai. One problem. The documents show only one visit on a Wednesday, while these “regular” meetings were suppossed to have taken place “usually on Wednesdays.” One Wednesday…

Here is a link to itemized images from the FEC report. I can not speak to the nature of the site, as it’s the first time I’ve seen it…

Now, if anyone has a problem with the site above, the following is a direct link to Ron Paul’s itemized and imaged FEC filings.
http://images.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?C00432914

Furthermore, Bill White may have the wrong restraurant as to where the White Supremacists meet. Remember Bill White says Tara Thai was the meeting place.

[i]Secondly, the man who organized the dinner meetings “Commander” White refers to, Peter Gemma, has this to say:

“I ran those dinners. Ron Paul was never there. If Bill White ever came to the meetings, he didn’t use his real name, he doesn’t even get the name of the restaurant correctly.”[/i]
Ron Paul vs. the Dirty Tricksters - Antiwar.com Original?

Hmm, so Bill White doesn’t get the name right. So, which restaurant did the White Supremacists meet at?

On a Ron Paul forum, this fellow did some searching around on White Supremacy sites to try to validate, or debunk, this story. He found this on a thread in one of their forums. I won’t link the Neo-nazi site directly, but he does provide a link if you care to read through some hate-filled forums.

“There may be some confusion here between two restaurants in Arlington with similar names. I know for a fact that at different times in the past, both David Irving/AMREN and the National Alliance held several meetings at SALA THAI restaurant in Arlington. I don’t know whether AMREN or other alleged “racist” organizations hold “regular” meetings at TARA THAI.”

So, he claims the White Supremacists met at a Restaurant called Sala Thai. Is there a Sala Thai in Arlington? Yep.
http://www.salathaidc.com/main.html

By the way, why would Ron Paul or his aides go to Tara Thai (not Sala Thai) 7 times? Well, because it’s on the same block as Ron Paul’s campaign HQs in Arlington…
Here’s the link providing FEC documentation as proof.