Vitamin A and Testosterone

Diet and Nutrition
1

Has anybody seen this article? I’m interested in opinions.

westonaprice.org/men/vitaminabodybuilding.html

"Abundant animal research indicates the importance of vitamin A to the production of testosterone. Vitamin A crosses the blood-testis barrier in its alcohol form as retinol, where it is stored in the Sertoli cells and converted as needed to its more biologically active form, retinoic acid. Experiments with rats show that greater concentrations of vitamin A in the testes increase basal testosterone secretion, as well as transferrin, which is responsible for the transport of iron; and a variety of growth factors including IGF-binding protein 4 (which transports IGF), androgen-binding protein (which transports androgens), transforming growth factor-beta (which causes cell growth but suppresses cancer) and steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (which is responsible for the transport of cholesterol into the mitochondria for its conversion to steroids).

Vitamin A also decreases estrogen production in the male testes. Rats that are deficient in vitamin A experience decreased testosterone until the accessory sex organs atrophy, indicating that vitamin A not only aids in, but is essential to, testosterone production."

A couple weeks ago I was trying to perfect my own pumpkin protein shake and I was going through a lot of raw pumpkin, which contains beta carotene, a precursor to vitamin A. Oddly enough, at the same time, my T-levels were skyrocketing. I had a blood test and my T was about 1350 when it normally sits around 600. When I stopped eating the pumpkin, my levels retreated to normal.

I found this article after the pumpkin shake experiment, so I think it might have been the vitamin A. Anybody else have good experiences with vitamin A or pumpkin?

2

One thing to remember is, enough beta carotene will turn you orange. I was quite orange back in the days when Met-Rx was quite good stuff and probably the best you could get at the time (it had a lot of beta-carotene and I was going through 6 packs a day) and relatively recently was slightly orange from sweet potatoes.

The condition is harmless or even beneficial. If beneficial, the effect would be from UV and/or antioxidant protection of the skin. It’s been shown that high beta-carotene content in the skin – don’t know how high, probably short of being orange – is equivalent to wearing SPF 4 sunscreen in terms of protecting from sun damage.

As for Vitamin A itself, this should not be supplemented. Better to have the body produce its own Vitamin A from beta-carotene.

3

Isn’t Vitamin A used in high doses to treat acne?

Or, that ultra high doses affect the sebaceous glands and permanently shrink them, which of course would affect acne conditions; I am not entirely sure.

I think I remember reading that doses of 50,000 IU per day have been used to treat acne. I also took Accutane years ago and I believe that an ultra high dose of Vitamin A was part of the formula. I can’t recall.

Worked, though.

4

Accutane is derived from vitamin A. Vitamin A can be effective for acne, but from what I’ve read, isotretinoin (Accutane) is actually a lot less toxic than vitamin A when used at similarly effective doses. I did try 50,000 IU, and it worked pretty well, but I was getting nauseas after the doses, and decided it was probably a bad idea to be on it in the long term.

I don’t remember my gym performance while I was taking 50k IU of A, but I definitely wouldn’t be surprised if my T levels were increased. There are a ton of studies around supporting that article. Actually, after being reminded by this post, I may start taking cod liver oil again.

5

I dont get it, how does Vitamin A effect Test levels THAT much, to double them in the above poster.

And Cod liver oil, i must be on a go slow today.

6

[quote]300andabove wrote:
I dont get it, how does Vitamin A effect Test levels THAT much, to double them in the above poster.

And Cod liver oil, i must be on a go slow today.

[/quote]

Cod Liver Oil has a high amount of Vitamin A. I think somewhere along the lines of 4500 IU per tablespoon or something?

7

Maybe I should be clearer on, Vitamin A, as such, should not be supplemented.

Many vitamins are perfectly fine at even hundreds of times the sort of dose that would be normally derived from food sources.

Vitamin A is not one of these.

The gap between the amount that is healthful and the amount that is harmful is narrow.

Supplementing with beta-carotene, not Vitamin A itself, guarantees not going into the harmful zone.

Vitamin A itself is the only vitamin that I know of showing negative correlation between supplementation and lifespan. At least one study has shown that people who supplement with Vitamin A itself have shorter lifespans on average than those that do not.

Some small degree of supplementation is not likely to do that, but some supplementing with it go overboard with it, which actually is extremely easy to do with this vitamin.

There is just no reason to not instead use beta-carotene, or if getting plenty of foods rich in beta-carotene, to leave the whole issue alone, as it’s perfectly fine as it is already.

As a practical example getting back to the original post, yorik’s good result was due not to taking Vitamin A itself, but from dietary beta-carotene.

Pumpkin, for example, or sweet potatoes, or a beta-carotene supplement are far smarter choices than Vitamin A (retinol) supplements.

8

are pumpkins seeds or pumpkins seed oil a good way to get beta-carotene?

9

No to the pumpkin seeds (from the USDA Nutrient Database) and I would think not from the oil. The beta-carotene is in the orange-colored flesh of the pumpkin.

No orange color, no beta-carotene. I have never seen pumpkin seed oil myself, but doubt that it is strongly if at all orange, judging from pumpkin seeds themselves. And especially as the seeds contain little beta-carotene, the oil would not either, I don’t think.

By the way, pumpkin added to a shake adds remarkably few calories but makes it seem like considerably more food. E.g., 100 grams adds only 26 calories but a lot of phytonutrients and most definitely a lot of beta-carotene.

10

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Maybe I should be clearer on, Vitamin A, as such, should not be supplemented.

Many vitamins are perfectly fine at even hundreds of times the sort of dose that would be normally derived from food sources.

Vitamin A is not one of these.

The gap between the amount that is healthful and the amount that is harmful is narrow.

Supplementing with beta-carotene, not Vitamin A itself, guarantees not going into the harmful zone.

Vitamin A itself is the only vitamin that I know of showing negative correlation between supplementation and lifespan. At least one study has shown that people who supplement with Vitamin A itself have shorter lifespans on average than those that do not.

Some small degree of supplementation is not likely to do that, but some supplementing with it go overboard with it, which actually is extremely easy to do with this vitamin.

There is just no reason to not instead use beta-carotene, or if getting plenty of foods rich in beta-carotene, to leave the whole issue alone, as it’s perfectly fine as it is already.

As a practical example getting back to the original post, yorik’s good result was due not to taking Vitamin A itself, but from dietary beta-carotene.

Pumpkin, for example, or sweet potatoes, or a beta-carotene supplement are far smarter choices than Vitamin A (retinol) supplements.[/quote]

Any other resources for vitamins you recommend Bill? Or vitamins you have this view on (supplementation leading to excessive intake being potentially harmful?)

I want to add a general comment to the discussion so far. Small increases in testosterone tend to have very little to no impact on gains or performance, and have even been linked to some negative affects on health. Now, I’m definitely not saying that you shouldn’t look to improve your hormones in a beneficial way, just that a treatment or supplement potentially increasing t-levels by a small amount shouldn’t be a big factor in your diet.

For example, it is frequently mentioned that glutamine pre-bed can potentially cause small growth hormone release- but so does starvation. And there have also been studies that show that the ratio of carb to protein intake in the diet can effect testosterone, with the extreme example showing a high carb, low protein diet increasing t-levels beyond that of a higher protein diet. Does that mean that starving or eating lots of bread and low protein are good for lean body mass gains or performance? HELL no! It’s an important distinction to make.

I think we are lucky to have people like Bill Roberts posting, because it’s so easy to interpret this type of stuff the wrong way, and some anecdotal evidence combined with the number of people reading the threads could cause some individuals to draw the wrong conclusions (just look at that recent psmf 14yo thread) -as the actual info Bill posted about Vitamin A suggests.

The more you learn, the more it seems to point back to the basics and common sense.

11

The only vitamins that in practice some people are going to take more than they should are so far as I know Vitamin A itself (retinol) and unbalanced forms of Vitamin E. That is to say, too much d-alpha tocopherol without corresponding for example gamma tocopherol can actually be detrimental.

And there’s some reasonable argument as to whether megadoses of Vitamin C might be long term a poor idea. At the present time the safest seems to be to figure that ongoing multi-gram/day usage may well be more than optimal. Most don’t do that anyway, but some do.

On sources of information: hard to say, I don’t rely on any one thing or have anything that I particularly go to, but thinking back Atkins’ Vita-Nutrient book (or similar title) was a pretty good one for general reading. Atkins was quite a smart guy besides just his low-carb diet.

12

thanks.

I’ve seen conflicting info on the C and E too. Some indication that excessive intake of antioxidants can be harmful but nothing definite either way

13

The thing with the E is that the studies showing problems with supplemental E intake are in fact showing only problems with supplementing with only alpha-tocopherol, which is not the right thing to do in the first place, and can actually be counterproductive by displacing dietary gamma-tocopherol.

But the study then gets taken by people as supposedly showing that “Vitamin E” (as a blanket, non-specific statement) is bad past some quite small amount, rather than “taking only alpha-tocopherol and doing so in high quantities appears to increase certain risks,” which is how the studies should be interpreted.

14

I should have been more clear about the beta carotene. In fact, based on what Bill said, I looked in the health food store and I could not find a vitamin A supplement; only beta carotene.

It’s certainly possible that I was deficient in vitamin A at the time, and might have led to the beta carotene having an effect. I intend to run another experiment with the pumpkin and see what happens.

My can of Libby’s 100% Pure Pumpkin says a single serving has 300% of the RDA of vitamin A, 80% as beta carotene. I was getting at least 2 servings a day over 2-3 days.

Still didn’t get the recipe perfect though.

15

Actually, it wasn’t that you weren’t clear: it was later posts that diverged into Vitamin A itself (retinol) and in at least one case referring to a dangerously high dose of it.

16

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Actually, it wasn’t that you weren’t clear: it was later posts that diverged into Vitamin A itself (retinol) and in at least one case referring to a dangerously high dose of it.[/quote]

Hi Bill. I always enjoy reading your expert opinion, especially when what I learned turns out to be wrong (different thread.)

I found some additional info and differing opinions on toxicity. When you recommend to not supplement with A, are you referring to the synthetic supplements mentioned below?

Apparently the conversion from beta carotene to Vitamin A can be as little as 10:1, (10 units of carotene to 1 unit of A.) Maybe this why people turn orange? Do you think high levels of A from food sources are also unsafe?

More from the Weston Price website:

"We have pointed out that concerns about vitamin A toxicity are exaggerated. While some forms of synthetic vitamin A found in supplements can be toxic at only moderately high doses (1), (emphasis mine) fat-soluble vitamin A naturally found in foods like cod liver oil, liver, and butterfat is safe at up to ten times the doses of water-soluble, solidified, and emulsified vitamin A found in some supplements that produce toxicity. Additionally, the vitamin D found in cod liver oil and butterfat from pasture-raised animals protects against vitamin A toxicity, and allows one to consume a much higher amount of vitamin A before it becomes toxic.(1-3)

…

[i]1. Myhre, et al., “Water-miscible, emulsified, and solid forms of retinol supplements are more toxic than oil-based preparations,” Am J Clin Nutr, 78 (2003) 1152-9.

  1. Aburto, et al., “The influence of Vitamin A on the Utilization and Amelioration of Toxicity of Cholecalciferol, 25-Hydroxycholecalciferol, and 1,25-Dihydroxycholecalciferol in Young Broiler Chickens,” Poultry Science, 77 (1998) 570-577.

  2. Metz, et al., “The Interaction of Dietary Vitamin A and Vitamin D Related to Skeletal Development in the Turkey Poult,” J. Nutr. 115 (1985) 929-935.[/i]"

…

I don’t know what you think of the Weston Price website, and I certainly am cautious comparing poultry studies with humans. I’m just curious to get more info and more opinions. Thanks.

17

Sure, high levels of Vitamin A (retinol) from a food source can be too much.

For example, a single meal of polar bear liver can kill you dead. As little as 3 ounces reportedly can do it.

It doesn’t have to be a polar bear liver either. Arctic explorers have also died of Vitamin A toxicity from eating the livers of their sled dogs. In that case I don’t believe it’s just one liver that does it, but it can’t be that many livers, either.

On turning orange from high intake of beta-carotene: Yes, that is unconverted beta-carotene. The body had no need of further retinol.

More is not always better. Retinol and related compounds do have toxicities at high levels.

18

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Sure, high levels of Vitamin A (retinol) from a food source can be too much.

For example, a single meal of polar bear liver can kill you dead. As little as 3 ounces reportedly can do it.

It doesn’t have to be a polar bear liver either. Arctic explorers have also died of Vitamin A toxicity from eating the livers of their sled dogs. In that case I don’t believe it’s just one liver that does it, but it can’t be that many livers, either.

On turning orange from high intake of beta-carotene: Yes, that is unconverted beta-carotene. The body had no need of further retinol.

More is not always better. Retinol and related compounds do have toxicities at high levels.[/quote]

Wait what?LOL. Do you have a link to this? I am not questioning the validity I just find this hilarious. Woah dude, I accidentally the polar bear liver, the whole thing!

19

It’s been stated in many reputable books over very many years. I’m sure you could turn it up with Googling very quickly. It’s not an urban legend, or polar legend as the case may be: it is indeed the case.

20

Products and foods with high amounts of vitamin A have done wonders for me. I eat calfs liver once a week or so and have liver pate on sandwiches… when not in this routine I have cod liver oil. But with orange veggies and certain fruits I probably get three(?) times or more of that amount in pro-vitamin A nutrients.