Victoria, BC Police Brutality

Off Topic
122

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Wow…OBoile. [/quote]

This thread is far more worthwhile for observing the insane reactions of “No big deal” than it is for what is contained in the video.

I know it’s passe to “go Nazi” in an argument but it bears repeating that THIS is kinda how the 1930s German people psyches must have been working. Several steps removed, I agree, but nonetheless the yellow-bricked road is apparently well trod.[/quote]

The notion of a yellow bricked road would require a progression of some sort…[/quote]

Well, it is a progression to those who view this in a favorable light.

Authoritarianism eventually becomes malignant when good, well intentioned people let a little slip here and there over the course of time.[/quote]

When I say progressive I just mean slowly escalating. Do you think things are worse now than the gestapo coercion employed under presidents like FDR?

123

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]goldengloves wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:
http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/issues/102004/PDFS/Page129_fig2.pdf

Here is the Ontario use of force model from 1993. Note that “Passive Resistance” overlaps with the use of “Empty Hand Techniques” (i.e. no weapon).

http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/issues/102004/PDFS/page132_fig3.pdf

Here is the national use of force model. Once again, “Passive Resistant” allows for use of force and intermediate weapons come in when the person is “Active Resistant”.
Note that other tactical considerations can cause officers to deviate from my overly simplistic set of guidelines.

http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1397&issue_id=102004
Here is the article these were taken from.
Here is a quote:
“The National Use-of-Force framework was constructed in consideration of (federal) statute law and current case law.”

Again: This guy will be able to EASILY justify his actions as they are in accordance with what he is trained to do.[/quote]

In the second link you provided it states that passive resistance only requires soft physical force, a full force kick exceeds the required force for passive resistance.
[/quote]
Actually it doesn’t.[/quote]

That’s exactly what the PDF states; passive resistance requires soft physical contact and active resistance requires physical control. It seems like you’re just trying to stretch information to coincide with your argument.

124

Watch it gentlemen…we’re close to PWI-territory.

125

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
]

It’s hard to tell with the first guy he kicks, he appears to be pretty subdued to me. The second guy is complying up until he gets plowed into guy (the non-yellow guy). He ends up shoving him over to where the guy is on all fours. With the cop on his back and on all fours is when the officer demands for the guy to put his hands behind his back. Do me a favor and try that out. It’s going to be unnatural for a guy with that much weight on his back to pick up his hands and voluntarily face plant. Much less one that has been drinking and is being wrestled. It’s at this point the guy in yellow kicks him in the ribs. The knees in the back come while the has his arm pinned underneath him with several people ontop of him.

I mean take a look, even after the guy in black has him rolled over on his knees, the guy allows one hand to bet put behind his back. the cop then goes for his second hand, so the guy tries to sit up to his knees (because all his weight is now on that hand), the cop pushes him down. At this point the guy starts to fall forward and reaches forward with both hands to brake the fall. That is what he got kicked in the ribs for. I honestly see a guy who complied with every command he was given the opportunity to.[/quote]

Why is that ^ so obvious to you and me yet others are completely oblivious and think he is “passively resisting” (sic)?[/quote]

Because those people have never been in a situation where they have either dealt with an idiot cop or just a regular person. They haven’t yet learned that police are not infallible deities.

126

I’ve been assaulted by a cop before. 6 elbow smashes to the back of my head while I was seated in a room at the station, being cooperative, not talking shit or anything. I did have drugs on me, was cooperative, wasn’t allowed to speak to a lawyer, and that officer’s partner lied in court about my how I had been arrested.

127

[quote]polo77j wrote:

[quote]Rico Suave wrote:

[quote]polo77j wrote:

[quote]Rico Suave wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]ladieslove wrote:
i understand using force if someone isn’t co-operating, but that guy seemed like he was co-operating.

although… and i know i’ll probably catch some serious crap for this, but police DO have to put up with a lot of ish from people. like… f*ck the police but they better help me when i need them.

but in this particular situation, it definitely looks like they were letting out steam when they should have been holding themselves together. [/quote]

I agree, I’m normally willing to give police officers a “pass” if they put a minor beating on someone who just killed another officer or risked people’s lives (the high speed chase video from a couple years back comes to mind), but this time it seemed unwarranted. [/quote]

At least you’re giving the cops some benefit of the doubt… we as a whole don’t know the whole story or saw everything that happened. What if these guys ganged up and beat the shit out of people just like the cops did? Would you be for or against it? [/quote]

What if the guys were wearing a chicken costume and Peter Griffin jumped out of nowhere to fight him? It’s irrelevant to the facts. In the given video the kids appeared to be subdued with maybe minor resistance and posed no threat to either officer nor the citizens on the street, i.e. the cops had control of the situation. Regardless of prior infractions the suspects were already subdued, at what point is it necessary to boot the guy in the back?

Hell, the guy could’ve punched a baby in the face for all we know, but the situation was already under control when the suspect ceases to be a threat (ie face down hands behind back). Any use of force aside from slapping the handcuffs or restraints on him is unnecessary and is a dishonorable. Cops aren’t meant to “dole out justice” and that kick is not justice anyways.

We live in a society of laws and when those who are sworn to protect those laws disresepect those laws how are citizens supposed to respect them?[/quote]

Yeah, was kind of a sucker “punch” I admit that. I said earlier in this thread that I don’t necessarily condone the officer’s actions. However, we don’t know the whole situation. So it does make a difference IMO.

Its like saying (an extreme example) if someone murdered your family and you knew who it was…and then someone caught you on tape beating the shit out of them. Of course you should get charged, but what you did to them was totally warranted. That’s what I’m trying to get at. [/quote]

Problem with your scenario is I’m not a cop. Regardless what “is warranted” or not, and once again, your situation is irrelevant. Hypothetical situations are always irrelevant; example, my girlfriend asks from time to time “What if I was fatter when we met” or something equally irrelevant to our relationship because a. she wasn’t fatter/uglier/different in any way and she couldn’t have been because she wasn’t. To actually think about the what if’s rather than the actual facts at hand is ridiculous.

Plus anyone trying to tell me how I’d react in a given situation is irrelevant because if I had been put in that situation in reality and hadn’t reacted that way their argument is already flawed. If I hadn’t been put in that situation no one knows exactly how I’d react. I could say “Yea i’d beat the shit out of the murderer. If only I had the chance” blah blah blah, but I couldn’t say for certain therefore it is irrelevant to any type of discussion. So, in closing, you creating exaggerated circumstances in trying to justify the “sucker punch” by the cop is irrelevant.

I get what you’re trying to convay but I can’t follow your illogic due to the level of accountability and integrity that cops need to be held to. Unfortunately that cop decided to give up his integrity and doesn’t deserve respect or justification.[/quote]

Okay…I know you say you understand what I’m trying to get at, but I really don’t think you do. Maybe its me… i don’t know, but whatever. I’m sure the cop could have acted on the individual differently but without any other information (ive only seen the video) i can’t say that it wasnt warranted. lets kiss and make up now :slight_smile:

128

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I’ve been assaulted by a cop before. 6 elbow smashes to the back of my head while I was seated in a room at the station, being cooperative, not talking shit or anything. I did have drugs on me, was cooperative, wasn’t allowed to speak to a lawyer, and that officer’s partner lied in court about my how I had been arrested.[/quote]

You aren’t alone.

129

I know that I was into bad shit(5 years ago), but breaking the law to enforce it, nullifies it’s purpose.

130

This is my problem with SOME of the people they are letting into police forces now. People who cant control themselves/dont know how to act when shit gets physical. Hell, some offers out there cant even control a physical confrontation with an average sized man. Dont go all “6’10” 400lbs bear wrestler vs cop" on me here, hypotheticals with extremes are ridiculous.

My mother is a dispatcher for the RCMP and she says its unreal some of the officers walking through the door. 5’2" 110lbs women (i LOVE small women fwiw), and men who arent much bigger. My parents remember when you complied with the officer because he was a physically imposing man who didnt have to use any force at all, because you knew if you fucked around he would just put ur ass on the ground. Lets face it, physical presence plays a HUGE role in controlling a situation, and prevent it from becoming a confrontation. I dont give a fuck about political correctedness (???) when it comes to law enforcement officers. Just because some little bookworm runt went and got a crim degree doesnt mean they are suited for law enforcement.

Now obviously yellow jacket cop went bezerk, but tbh i dont care how he acted. The drunk was probably bruised up and sore for a few days but whatever, you wanna get drunk and gang up on people, you pay the consequences. Idk why so many people are intent on arguing about things(broken ribs, internal bleeding, death ffs) THAT MIGHT HAPPEN. Do you you have a tombstone already engraved in your basement because you might die today?? And lets not victimize the victimizer here, he wasnt just some random passerby idly sitting on the sidewalk, he was involved in the assualt, then removed and immobilized by the officers.

I’ve seen tons of fights downtown where cops are dragging drunks to the ground, jumping on them, throwing some elbows knees, etc. to subdue those involved. Imo, its justified for the safety of the officer. I dont know about anyone else, but I know the few times i’ve been envolved in a drunken brawl, when someone grabs me from behind and says “stop” I wasnt thinking “oh ok, must be a cop”, I was thinking “some mother fucker is trying to jump in on this action” and automatically go into attack mode, until I’m subdued or feel I’ve “won” the confrontation. And if the cops are trying to subdue some drunk, they better not be losing.

131

[quote]Rico Suave wrote:

[quote]polo77j wrote:

[quote]Rico Suave wrote:

[quote]polo77j wrote:

[quote]Rico Suave wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]ladieslove wrote:
i understand using force if someone isn’t co-operating, but that guy seemed like he was co-operating.

although… and i know i’ll probably catch some serious crap for this, but police DO have to put up with a lot of ish from people. like… f*ck the police but they better help me when i need them.

but in this particular situation, it definitely looks like they were letting out steam when they should have been holding themselves together. [/quote]

I agree, I’m normally willing to give police officers a “pass” if they put a minor beating on someone who just killed another officer or risked people’s lives (the high speed chase video from a couple years back comes to mind), but this time it seemed unwarranted. [/quote]

At least you’re giving the cops some benefit of the doubt… we as a whole don’t know the whole story or saw everything that happened. What if these guys ganged up and beat the shit out of people just like the cops did? Would you be for or against it? [/quote]

What if the guys were wearing a chicken costume and Peter Griffin jumped out of nowhere to fight him? It’s irrelevant to the facts. In the given video the kids appeared to be subdued with maybe minor resistance and posed no threat to either officer nor the citizens on the street, i.e. the cops had control of the situation. Regardless of prior infractions the suspects were already subdued, at what point is it necessary to boot the guy in the back?

Hell, the guy could’ve punched a baby in the face for all we know, but the situation was already under control when the suspect ceases to be a threat (ie face down hands behind back). Any use of force aside from slapping the handcuffs or restraints on him is unnecessary and is a dishonorable. Cops aren’t meant to “dole out justice” and that kick is not justice anyways.

We live in a society of laws and when those who are sworn to protect those laws disresepect those laws how are citizens supposed to respect them?[/quote]

Yeah, was kind of a sucker “punch” I admit that. I said earlier in this thread that I don’t necessarily condone the officer’s actions. However, we don’t know the whole situation. So it does make a difference IMO.

Its like saying (an extreme example) if someone murdered your family and you knew who it was…and then someone caught you on tape beating the shit out of them. Of course you should get charged, but what you did to them was totally warranted. That’s what I’m trying to get at. [/quote]

Problem with your scenario is I’m not a cop. Regardless what “is warranted” or not, and once again, your situation is irrelevant. Hypothetical situations are always irrelevant; example, my girlfriend asks from time to time “What if I was fatter when we met” or something equally irrelevant to our relationship because a. she wasn’t fatter/uglier/different in any way and she couldn’t have been because she wasn’t. To actually think about the what if’s rather than the actual facts at hand is ridiculous.

Plus anyone trying to tell me how I’d react in a given situation is irrelevant because if I had been put in that situation in reality and hadn’t reacted that way their argument is already flawed. If I hadn’t been put in that situation no one knows exactly how I’d react. I could say “Yea i’d beat the shit out of the murderer. If only I had the chance” blah blah blah, but I couldn’t say for certain therefore it is irrelevant to any type of discussion. So, in closing, you creating exaggerated circumstances in trying to justify the “sucker punch” by the cop is irrelevant.

I get what you’re trying to convay but I can’t follow your illogic due to the level of accountability and integrity that cops need to be held to. Unfortunately that cop decided to give up his integrity and doesn’t deserve respect or justification.[/quote]

Okay…I know you say you understand what I’m trying to get at, but I really don’t think you do. Maybe its me… i don’t know, but whatever. I’m sure the cop could have acted on the individual differently but without any other information (ive only seen the video) i can’t say that it wasnt warranted. lets kiss and make up now :)[/quote]

lol … Well, let’s hug it out, you never shave and it hurts my lips

132

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I’ve been assaulted by a cop before. 6 elbow smashes to the back of my head while I was seated in a room at the station, being cooperative, not talking shit or anything. I did have drugs on me, was cooperative, wasn’t allowed to speak to a lawyer, and that officer’s partner lied in court about my how I had been arrested.[/quote]

You aren’t alone.[/quote]

X3

133

[quote]BobCat77 wrote:
This is my problem with SOME of the people they are letting into police forces now. People who cant control themselves/dont know how to act when shit gets physical. Hell, some offers out there cant even control a physical confrontation with an average sized man. Dont go all “6’10” 400lbs bear wrestler vs cop" on me here, hypotheticals with extremes are ridiculous.

My mother is a dispatcher for the RCMP and she says its unreal some of the officers walking through the door. 5’2" 110lbs women (i LOVE small women fwiw), and men who arent much bigger. My parents remember when you complied with the officer because he was a physically imposing man who didnt have to use any force at all, because you knew if you fucked around he would just put ur ass on the ground. Lets face it, physical presence plays a HUGE role in controlling a situation, and prevent it from becoming a confrontation. I dont give a fuck about political correctedness (???) when it comes to law enforcement officers. Just because some little bookworm runt went and got a crim degree doesnt mean they are suited for law enforcement.

Now obviously yellow jacket cop went bezerk, but tbh i dont care how he acted. The drunk was probably bruised up and sore for a few days but whatever, you wanna get drunk and gang up on people, you pay the consequences. Idk why so many people are intent on arguing about things(broken ribs, internal bleeding, death ffs) THAT MIGHT HAPPEN. Do you you have a tombstone already engraved in your basement because you might die today?? And lets not victimize the victimizer here, he wasnt just some random passerby idly sitting on the sidewalk, he was involved in the assualt, then removed and immobilized by the officers.

I’ve seen tons of fights downtown where cops are dragging drunks to the ground, jumping on them, throwing some elbows knees, etc. to subdue those involved. Imo, its justified for the safety of the officer. I dont know about anyone else, but I know the few times i’ve been envolved in a drunken brawl, when someone grabs me from behind and says “stop” I wasnt thinking “oh ok, must be a cop”, I was thinking “some mother fucker is trying to jump in on this action” and automatically go into attack mode, until I’m subdued or feel I’ve “won” the confrontation. And if the cops are trying to subdue some drunk, they better not be losing. [/quote]

There are varying degrees of force which allow an officer to ensure his safety and the safety of the person they’re trying to detain. If the only purpose of such degrees of force was to give the officers safety then they’d be unlimited, brutality could be justified when it isn’t even required.

134

I dont disagree with whats your saying. There are definitely some over zealous cops out there. I just think from their experience using a little bit of excessive force probably ends a confrontation sooner rather then later. Its a slippery slope and I’m not going to justify the Mike Vanderjact wanna be cop. I just have a hard time feeling sympathy for drunks who fuck with innocent people or cops.