This is a national disgrace.
That’s fucking UNbelievable. I hope those bastards are prosecuted and thrown to the wolves.
This should not be surprising to anyone. VA hospitals have always been notoriously bad under every administration. We do a great job of sending people to war and a poor job of taking care of them once they are home.
james
That is terrible. I used to go to the VA hospital here in Tampa and had nothing but great service. And I HATE hospitals because I think most doctor’s are lazy or don’t know how to think outside the pill box.
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
This should not be surprising to anyone. VA hospitals have always been notoriously bad under every administration. We do a great job of sending people to war and a poor job of taking care of them once they are home.
james[/quote]
This sucks. I understand government breaks its promises to pretty much everybody, but breaking promises to Veterans seems especially egregious to me.
This makes my heart hurt…these soldiers gave the ultimate sacrifice.
And are left to swing in the breeze.
I hope somebody swings.
We have things like this…
We have a lot of vets committing suicide, at a higher rate than being killed in action.
We don’t have much in this country in terms of psychological care for vets either.
I know most of my vet buddies are super pro gun, most are somewhat if not strongly conservative. I don’t know if Obama will help, don’t know what the conservatives will do about it, everyone is happy to have the support of vets, but not so many help them… It’s always something people get sad about, and voice their disapproval, but usually those people quickly forget about it or focus on some other issue.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
We have things like this…
We have a lot of vets committing suicide, at a higher rate than being killed in action.
We don’t have much in this country in terms of psychological care for vets either.
I know most of my vet buddies are super pro gun, most are somewhat if not strongly conservative. I don’t know if Obama will help, don’t know what the conservatives will do about it, everyone is happy to have the support of vets, but not so many help them… It’s always something people get sad about, and voice their disapproval, but usually those people quickly forget about it or focus on some other issue. [/quote]
History has demostrated this is one of the consequences of war. That is why it should conducted with overwhelming force and ended quickly. It generally takes two decades from when the fighting stops before these issues return to baseline. (note…we are still fighting) This has been understood since the days of Sun Tzu.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
We have things like this…
We have a lot of vets committing suicide, at a higher rate than being killed in action.
We don’t have much in this country in terms of psychological care for vets either.
I know most of my vet buddies are super pro gun, most are somewhat if not strongly conservative. I don’t know if Obama will help, don’t know what the conservatives will do about it, everyone is happy to have the support of vets, but not so many help them… It’s always something people get sad about, and voice their disapproval, but usually those people quickly forget about it or focus on some other issue. [/quote]
History has demostrated this is one of the consequences of war. That is why it should conducted with overwhelming force and ended quickly. It generally takes two decades from when the fighting stops before these issues return to baseline. (note…we are still fighting) This has been understood since the days of Sun Tzu. [/quote]
Another option is not conducting war at all when it can be avoided. But I hear you.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
We have things like this…
We have a lot of vets committing suicide, at a higher rate than being killed in action.
We don’t have much in this country in terms of psychological care for vets either.
I know most of my vet buddies are super pro gun, most are somewhat if not strongly conservative. I don’t know if Obama will help, don’t know what the conservatives will do about it, everyone is happy to have the support of vets, but not so many help them… It’s always something people get sad about, and voice their disapproval, but usually those people quickly forget about it or focus on some other issue. [/quote]
History has demostrated this is one of the consequences of war. That is why it should conducted with overwhelming force and ended quickly. It generally takes two decades from when the fighting stops before these issues return to baseline. (note…we are still fighting) This has been understood since the days of Sun Tzu. [/quote]
Another option is not conducting war at all when it can be avoided. But I hear you. [/quote]
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
Sun Tzu
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
Sun Tzu
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
History has demostrated this is one of the consequences of war. That is why it should conducted with overwhelming force and ended quickly. It generally takes two decades from when the fighting stops before these issues return to baseline. (note…we are still fighting) This has been understood since the days of Sun Tzu. [/quote]
We have never paid attention to our vets. Not in a meaningful way and I don’t think it has much to do with the length of the war. The Gulf War was short (the first one) and everyone ignored us when people complained about disorders suffered because of breathing in all of that crap.
Everyone throws parades when we are going off to war but turn their backs two weeks after we return.
You’re spot on about returning to baseline though and our unemployment figures show that. It’s higher for recently returning vets but about the national average for older vets. There’s probably a myriad of reasons for that.
james
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
History has demostrated this is one of the consequences of war. That is why it should conducted with overwhelming force and ended quickly. It generally takes two decades from when the fighting stops before these issues return to baseline. (note…we are still fighting) This has been understood since the days of Sun Tzu. [/quote]
We have never paid attention to our vets. Not in a meaningful way and I don’t think it has much to do with the length of the war. The Gulf War was short (the first one) and everyone ignored us when people complained about disorders suffered because of breathing in all of that crap.
james
[/quote]
True; however, shorten the length of the engagement and you reduce the number of individuals involved.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
We have things like this…
We have a lot of vets committing suicide, at a higher rate than being killed in action.
We don’t have much in this country in terms of psychological care for vets either.
I know most of my vet buddies are super pro gun, most are somewhat if not strongly conservative. I don’t know if Obama will help, don’t know what the conservatives will do about it, everyone is happy to have the support of vets, but not so many help them… It’s always something people get sad about, and voice their disapproval, but usually those people quickly forget about it or focus on some other issue. [/quote]
I have more than a few things on my mind to say but will have to wait for later because im not typing them onmy phone, but I agree, although its not in my mind primarily a party or political problem–both sides suck. But even more than that I’m not sure they could do a whole lot of good if they decided to try…based on my veteran friends and our conversations at least. The military itself should have been much better about this thn they are without needing to go to politicians in the first place, but tere are many difficulties regardless
Can we all just put these scumbags in the VA system into gen. pop. in san quentin? Try them and convict them.
Why should we expect Obamacare to have a different outcome ?
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
We have things like this…
We have a lot of vets committing suicide, at a higher rate than being killed in action.
We don’t have much in this country in terms of psychological care for vets either.
I know most of my vet buddies are super pro gun, most are somewhat if not strongly conservative. I don’t know if Obama will help, don’t know what the conservatives will do about it, everyone is happy to have the support of vets, but not so many help them… It’s always something people get sad about, and voice their disapproval, but usually those people quickly forget about it or focus on some other issue. [/quote]
I have more than a few things on my mind to say but will have to wait for later because im not typing them onmy phone, but I agree, although its not in my mind primarily a party or political problem–both sides suck. But even more than that I’m not sure they could do a whole lot of good if they decided to try…based on my veteran friends and our conversations at least. The military itself should have been much better about this thn they are without needing to go to politicians in the first place, but tere are many difficulties regardless
Can we all just put these scumbags in the VA system into gen. pop. in san quentin? Try them and convict them.[/quote]
Try them under the UCMJ and send them to Leavenworth for hard labor/bread and water.
Fudging the books so that they look good to their superiors at the expense of peoples lives is unforgivable.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
… [/quote]
… The military itself should have been much better about this thn they are without needing to go to politicians in the first place, but tere are many difficulties regardless
Can we all just put these scumbags in the VA system into gen. pop. in san quentin? Try them and convict them.[/quote]
Try them under the UCMJ and send them to Leavenworth for hard labor/bread and water.
Fudging the books so that they look good to their superiors at the expense of peoples lives is unforgivable.
[/quote]
First, may I remind Aragon and Skyzyks that the Veterans’ Administration is a cabinet-level civilian department, and military law does not apply. Any legal matter becomes a Federal case. More important, any shame adheres not to the military, but to the Executive and Congressional oversight.
I have read the article several times over and I can attest that, sadly, the VA has done far, far worse. And I find it all the more incomprehensible. What, exactly did these administrators hope to achieve by “blacklisting” or “disappearing” a cohort of needy vets?
On the mercilessness of a bureaucracy:
*VA Medical Centers are attached and administered through grants to medical schools. So the comb workers are Federal employees–and protected by the strongest unions in the US–and the docs are employed through the medical school.
*The medical schools put 2 types of of docs in a VA: junior faculty who have research grants and no interest in clinical practice, and older docs who rise through tenure but are otherwise unsupportable. (Scattered both groups are docs that truly care about and respect the vets.)
*The docs have no power to improve matters; the employees answer to a higher authority.
*The docs are constantly given conflicting instructions. (I can remember that some months, the administration wanted to keep the census high–so we couldn’t discharge patients; and some months we were told to get the census down.)
*The VA is fairly good at taking care of the very sick or the very well; but in transition from one state to the other–not so much. Things fall through cracks, continuity is lost, records are lost, patients become numbers. (At one time, if a patient was admitted, the computers automatically would cancer all their clinic appointments. The poor soul would not know where or when to go to clinicand no one could tell him.)
(The example of Mr Breen is damn peculiar. We have to presume that, unless he was 100% service connected, he should have had MediCare. Anyone that sick with bladder cancer could have gone into the privates system and be transferred into the VA when stable. I can’t know why his family were so passive in this.)
So what happened in Phoenix? Was this all bad triage decisions? An order to reduce access for some so others would get appointments earlier? Even if someone “disappeared” the patients to make it look like waiting time was reduced…would her salary depend on this? Was this pure unadulterated evil for no purpose? (Is unadulterated evil punishable in the United States Criminal Code?) I simply cannot understand why this would happen.
We may never know. (Like Benghazi or the IRS.)
Whoever “gave orders” will plead the 5th at Congressional hearings.
The employees–clerks and schedulers–who followed the orders will be protected by their unions.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
… [/quote]
… The military itself should have been much better about this thn they are without needing to go to politicians in the first place, but tere are many difficulties regardless
Can we all just put these scumbags in the VA system into gen. pop. in san quentin? Try them and convict them.[/quote]
Try them under the UCMJ and send them to Leavenworth for hard labor/bread and water.
Fudging the books so that they look good to their superiors at the expense of peoples lives is unforgivable.
[/quote]
First, may I remind Aragon and Skyzyks that the Veterans’ Administration is a cabinet-level civilian department, and military law does not apply.
[/quote]
I know, Iknow…
I just want them in probably the only place left in the US that can do hard labor and severe dietary restriction.
Or that guy in the south west that makes his inmates wear pink underwear and works them all day in the sun.
My brother uses the VA system for health care after being permanently injured while enlisted and has had a great experience. He goes to the one in Tampa now, but when he was here in Pgh, they sent him to UPMC Montefiore for anything major.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
I know, Iknow…
[/quote]
Oh, I knew you knew…
The culture and the system provide for the service-connected disability; and, for the very ill or injured, the care can be great (Montefiore! Among the best of the best anywhere…)
But it can also be the most callous system. One of my buds was on active duty when he was paralyzed from the neck down. He recovered (from what was spinal shock), but he has had continued emerging disabilities. He has applied to have his service connection upgraded–for five years. He has had his records lost several times; when he moved between service centers, the process started all over again, and his records were lost again, etc. And “the system” grinds on.
Kafka did not write fiction.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
I know, Iknow…
[/quote]
Oh, I knew you knew…
The culture and the system provide for the service-connected disability; and, for the very ill or injured, the care can be great (Montefiore! Among the best of the best anywhere…)
But it can also be the most callous system. One of my buds was on active duty when he was paralyzed from the neck down. He recovered (from what was spinal shock), but he has had continued emerging disabilities. He has applied to have his service connection upgraded–for five years. He has had his records lost several times; when he moved between service centers, the process started all over again, and his records were lost again, etc. And “the system” grinds on.
Kafka did not write fiction.[/quote]
I’ve heard some of those types of stories too when I help with a charity that serves disabled vets.( Shameless Plug Alert- https://www.projecthealingwaters.org/ ) I don’t know if every location has one, but getting connected with a patient advocacy office can definitely grease those gears. My brother has to go in for a re-evaluation every five years or something too, even though he’s a c5-C6 quadriplegic.
There are some parts of that story that have me questioning the diligence of family members too though, like how they just took No for an answer, then he went home and died without seeking other options. One one hand I can’t understand how they could let a family member languish until death with cancer, and on the other can relate to the feeling of hopelessness from headbutting a concrete wall of bureaucracy. Getting that ball rolling can require momentous effort.
edit: About Montefiore- I figured you would appreciate that. Most people would just say “ah, what ever…”
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
We have things like this…
We have a lot of vets committing suicide, at a higher rate than being killed in action.
We don’t have much in this country in terms of psychological care for vets either.
I know most of my vet buddies are super pro gun, most are somewhat if not strongly conservative. I don’t know if Obama will help, don’t know what the conservatives will do about it, everyone is happy to have the support of vets, but not so many help them… It’s always something people get sad about, and voice their disapproval, but usually those people quickly forget about it or focus on some other issue. [/quote]
History has demostrated this is one of the consequences of war. That is why it should conducted with overwhelming force and ended quickly. It generally takes two decades from when the fighting stops before these issues return to baseline. (note…we are still fighting) This has been understood since the days of Sun Tzu. [/quote]
Another option is not conducting war at all when it can be avoided. But I hear you. [/quote]
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
Sun Tzu
Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
Sun Tzu[/quote]
Far from the myth of America as a reluctant sheriff, American wars after the Second World War were predominantly wars of choice. Keep in mind that this isn’t a normative assessment, but a positive one. I like the love for Sun Tzu. His work, along with that of Clausewitz and Machiavelli, are classics of security and strategy.