vegan = depression?

[rt45]

Okay it seems that NeilG and I both brought up the idea of Adrenal Fatigue. Being that this is not out of the question, I feel I should post a little more information regarding ways to determine if you might have it. Adrenal Fatigue is a deficiency in the function of the adrenal glands. In severe cases it can be life treating and in milder cases can cause depression, inability to get out of bed, feeling of being run down, suppression of the immune system which can lead to frequent colds, allergies, adult onset diabetes, etc? AF can be caused by too much physical, emotional, and/or environmental stress. That?s why the symptoms look like overtraining. Overtraining is very much related to a mild case of AF. So how do you know if you have it? Good Question, I?m glad you asked. The good news is that there is a test the doctors can do. The bad news is that it will only show up positive in VERY severe cases. On the bright side there are some tests that you can do at home to help. So here we go:

TEST 1
Grab a mirror, flashlight, and a watch. Sit in front of the mirror and shine the flashlight across one of your eyes. Imagine you where going to shoot yourself in the temple, then just move the flashlight 2 inches forward. The light should be going ACROSS the eye, not directly into it! With the other eye, watch in the mirror what the eye with the light shining across it is doing. The pupil should contract immediately. Under normal conditions the pupil will remain contracted for at least 2 minutes while the light is on it. If the pupil dilates despite the light shining on it during this 2 minute test, it may very well indicate AF. This dilation will last from a couple of seconds up to 45 seconds.

TEST 2
Measure your blood pressure after lying down quietly for 10 minutes or so. Then stand up and take it again. Blood pressure should INCREASE 10-10mmHg. If it drops, then we have another finger pointing us towards AF.

TEST 3
Take the dull end of a pen and lightly stroke the skin on your stomach, creating a mark 6 inches in length. Normal reaction will be for the mark to be white turning to red with in a few seconds. If it stays white for a minute or two and widens you are almost guarantied AF.

TEST 4
This is one of those enter 0 for never and 3 for intense or frequent tests. Then when you are done, you add up the numbers and see where you fall. There are close to 100 questions and I don?t feel like typing it out. But is someone is interested, I will. Or I can scan and email it to you.

[Radar]

What a load of piss…!

Adrenal Fatigue is just another catchphrase diagnosis for the general malaise of the over-stimulated 21st century.

Anyone who looks up the symptoms of adrenal fatigue will see themselves reflected there, and that’s the intent…!

It’s yet another method of sucking the money from your wallet by catering to peoples laziness and apathy.

[NeilG]

Radar,

“In the spirit of argument for arguments sake - I’d like to debate you.”

Thanks.

“Your first point against my reply was that there are no “logical” reasons to become a vegan or a vegetarian. In your infinite wisdom, Mr. Spock, you have discounted not only an individuals right to choose that which is ethical to him/her, but also you have poo-pooed one of humanity’s greater traits (being COMPASSION - either for animal or fellow man) not to mention an individuals right to choose their political leanings.”

Logic and ethics are different. What is ethical is not always logical (i.e. we want people to live longer, but the planet is already over-populated).

People can define whatever they want as ethical, but that doesn’t make it logical. I’m not cockadoodiepoopooing on people’s right to choose ethics. I’m cockadoodiepoopooing on faulty logic. Sometimes being logical helps you to be more ethical, or at the very least, gives some insight.

There’s always the rule in nature - sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. We need to kill animals to be kind to humans. That’s logical. To me it’s ethical, too, but like you say, that varies person to person.

Ethics is an individual assumption, old mate. What is ethical to you may not be ethical to me. As abortion is ethical to pro-choice, the opposite applies to the pro-lifers. So therefore, no-one is saying anyone is better than anyone…and if they are - I’m not the one who said it."

Yup. I’m in total agreement. But I said there are no logical reasons.

It always seems that when someone brings up ethical reasons for doing something I don’t, it’s like they’re saying “I am more ethical than you, so I’m doing this.” Tell me you don’t like meat, or it’s against your religion. That’s fine. But don’t say eating meat is unethical. That’s saying I’m unethical because I do something that is natural. Sure, you can think that, but saying it to me is asking for trouble. Since ethics varies from person to person, I’m not to keen on the reasoning for using it in a debate. Do you see how it would come across as an insult to me?

“se PROVE to me that adopting a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle kills more animals than someone who eats animals killed by companies…”/I>

Let me try to find this source for ya.

“Which outlines your idea of what is ETHICAL. See above, genius.”

Not really. That is what is logical. Even though it might seem to be logical that people maybe should eat bad food and die so our population stabalizes a bit, but emergency medicine screw that all up.

“…and that’s your attempt at addressing my earlier point on politics.”

Yes, because, to quote a radio talk show host here in Pittsburgh, “Liberalism creates the opposite of its stated intent.” Veganism is all about being ethical and protecting the environment, when it does just the opposite. Being a vegan isn’t hurting anything, but when lots of people are vegan, then it creates issues.

“Yes you DID make it up - because you aren’t right in the head.”

Wait, what?

“But seriously.”

Was that a joke? I admit I’m bad at sensing humor during a debate that’s only in text. Just a friendly suggestion…if you are making a joke, use those text thingies like or or my favorite XD

“Dumasses” (or should that be DUMBASSES)

I know how to spell it. I do this when I swear a lot. Dammit, sumbitch, and I don’t capitalize hell when I swear either

“I’m not a fuckin’ doctor - I gave MY personal case history, not your donut-eatin’ friends. What the fuck are you talking about here…?”

It sounded like you were offering your personal experience as proof that it’s ok.

“Nothing personal though.”

Ditto.

Neil

[NeilG]

“It’s yet another method of sucking the money from your wallet by catering to peoples laziness and apathy.”

If you look over the things on my list, you could fix most of those things for free, so how does that take money out of your wallet?

Also, by using this logic, we could say that exercise is just a scam catering to peoples’ fatness. I mean, most people are fat, so if being fat is a reason to exercise, it’s got to be a scam to get people to exercise since most people are fat.

But how would exercise be a scam just because everyone IS fat, and also when it can be done for free?

Adrenal fatigue is real. This reminds me of people that ignore digestive system trouble and don’t think that there could actually be a real problem there that needs to be addressed. Farting all the time is normal, right? Acid reflux is just something that happens for no reason. Indigestion is just something annoying. Having a BM every other day is normal. It’s sad.

[NeilG]

aww, crap. Didn’t close the tag. Sorry!

[rt45]

Radar,
Please don?t take this as an attack on you, it?s not. I enjoy having disagreements with people. Let me state for the record, that I don?t feel I know everything. Nor do I enjoy arguments so that I can prove I?m right. I believe that if 2 people are willing to listen to the other side, swallow some pride, in the end, they will BOTH be closer to the truth. And isn?t that what this is all about. Thousands of people offering there side of a story, listening, and then coming a conclusion. And hopefully in the end, everyone will be a little wiser.
You stated: It’s yet another method of sucking the money from your wallet by catering to peoples laziness and apathy.
Part of me agrees with that. How many people say: I have so and so. Feel bad for me. I can?t do that because I suffer from bla bla F@%king bla!!! You know what? Screw them. I don?t feel bad for anyone like that. I have a slow metabolism, that?s why I?m fat. I?m a hard gainer, that?s why I have 13 inch arm. Just thinking of people like that gets me pulse up. But how about the people that say: I have Bla Bla so I?m going to do something about it? The people that search for the answer so they can feel better. Nothing wrong with wanting to feel better, is there? How about if you already feel good? Is it possible to feel better? If so, why not go for it. Everyone here on this forum thinks like that to some degree. Guys (and girls) here are able to move some VERY respectable weight. But I?m willing to bet that they want more! It?s human nature. So if someone feels they suffer from Adrenal Fatigue, why not explore it? Maybe you feel well but the removal of a certain food would allow you to feel better. Or maybe you just think you feel well. Kind of like you can think you?re strong until someone smaller than you out lifts you.
You also stated: Adrenal Fatigue is just another catchphrase diagnosis for the general malaise of the over-stimulated 21st century.
Good point. But it?s no different that a doctor saying you have arthritis. Arthritis means inflammation on the joints. No Sh!t doc, what?s why I?m here. People feel better when they have a name for there symptoms. Arthritis, Fibermyata, Adrenal fatigue, etc? That brings us to our next point. You stated that everyone shows symptoms. As sad as it is, you?re probably correct. Modern life is a little rough on the human body. Add poor nutrition, lack of exercise, and you have one very sad bunch of people. Chances are so people do have reduce Adrenal function
Lets look at the possible solutions for AF or if you don?t want to give it a name, call it by the symptoms I and others listed before. There all things that we should be doing in the first place. Vitamins, minerals, EFA?s, sleep, exercise, positive attitude, limiting sugar intake, etc? No question that ignoring these things will not help you live a healthy lifestyle. Do you need a name of what to call the symptoms if you don?t do these things? I?m guessing, NO. Must of us here think it?s common sense.
Like I said before there is no single cure for anything. Most diseases start from the same source when you really boil it down. But if naming something gets someone to get off there butt and do something, great. Think of it like this: If I have a friend that can only dead lift 135lbs, to you or I he is weak. And he probably know it. But his doctor isn?t going to say anything to him, so he doesn?t stress about it. Now if we made up a disease called hypomuscular disorder and a doctor told him he had it, it might cause him to do something about it. Causes of the disease are laziness, poor nutrition, and lack of training. What would he do to fix it? LIFT and EAT RIGHT. Common sense to us, but like someone else on this forum said: when you realize that most of the world is stupid it starts to make sense.

[rt45]

ps. i know i hacked the spelling of fibromyalgia. Doing to many things at once and being part polish, not a good combo

[NeilG]

Sorry this took so long:

The dirty little secret vegetarians don’t want you to know

“I was looking over a menu in a restaurant the other day when I saw a section for vegetarians; I thought to myself: ‘boy, I sure am glad I’m not a meat-hating fascist’ and I skipped on to the steak section (because I’ll be damned if I’m going to pay $15 for an alfalfa sandwich, slice of cucumber and a scoop of cold cottage cheese), but before I turned the page something caught my eye. The heading of the vegetarian section was titled ‘Guiltless Grill,’ not because there were menu items with fewer calories and cholesterol, but because none of the items used any animal products. Think about that phrase for a second. What exactly does ‘guiltless grill’ imply? So I’m supposed to feel guilty now if I eat meat?”

Yes, Mr. Maddox, that’s exactly what they mean. We are “slaughtering helpless animals” and “eating their dead carcasses.” And they want us to be ashamed of ourselves. But Maddox’s article went on to make a wonderful point that very few people have considered (I know I hadn’t).

These pompous pecksniffs known as vegetarians are selectively ignoring the fact that millions of small animals are killed every year by giant combines hacking their way through the soy and wheat fields that supply a vegetarian’s supposedly “guilt-free” food supply. Squashed and beheaded gray-tailed voles, beautiful skunks, cute squirrels, cuddly bunnies, and even an occasional Bambi are found in the wake of these killer machines.

Many vegetarians also pretend not to know that many parts of the United States use “control hunts” in which hunting permits are passed out whenever there is a “pest problem” interfering with wheat, soy, and other grain harvests vegetarians rely on for survival. And by “pest” they mean deer, elk, and antelope, which eat the crops in question.

All this murder and mayhem going on because of vegetarian diets, and their only defense is the old “we-don’t-do-it-on-purpose” argument. But that doesn’t excuse the fact that vegetarians are responsible for the slaughter of tens of millions of animals that they don’t even eat because they’re too “civilized.” So all those animals die for nothing and just rot, conveniently, in the fields --where the vegetarians don’t have to look at or smell them.

Vegetarianism kills 300 million more animals than a meat-eating diet

And just in case you think Maddox and I are off our rockers and “blaming” the “poor, innocent” vegetarians for something that isn’t their fault, consider the official research that’s been done on the subject:

Steven Davis, Ph.D., a University of Oregon professor, recently did a study on the bio-ethics of a vegan diet. (Vegan diets don’t include meat, dairy, or other animal products.) Using an idea called the Least Harm Principle, which measures how much harm an action will cause, Davis determined that a total vegan-based diet model would caused 300 million more animals to die than a model that relies on beef and plants (harvested by hand).

So now that they know their diet is killing innocent animals, it will be interesting to see how many vegetarians really care about the whole animal-rights issue and start gathering their own food by hand. Call me crazy, but I don’t think it’s going to happen. But I’m also not suggesting that we all start planting and harvesting our own vegetables to go along with our 24-oz. T-bones.

My point here is to put a spotlight on the hypocrisy that abounds in the vegetarian regime. They argue that their diet is best, and part of their reasoning lies in the claim that vegetarianism eliminates the “senseless and needless” deaths of animals.

That just isn’t true. And neither is the notion that a meatless diet is better for you.

Action to take:

In order to counter the grossly false supposition that meat is the enemy (and to get a good dig in regarding the ridiculous Meatless Monday campaign), I propose we all start our own public health campaign that will include the following:

Soyless Sundays

Muffinless Mondays

Tofuless Tuesdays

Waffleless Wednesdays

Twinkieless Thursdays

French-fryless Fridays

and…

Spaghettiless Saturdays

Unlike “Meatless Mondays,” this program gets to the heart of the REAL food dangers and is guaranteed to keep you healthy and guilt-free. RH

References:

“School Introduces National “Meatless Monday” Health Campaign,” Johns Hopkins School of Public Health (press release), 10/7/02

“Guiltless grill? Is there another kind?” The Best Page in the Universe (http://maddox.xmission.com), 12/20/02

“OSU scientist questions the moral basis of a vegan diet,” Oregon State University Extension & Experiment Station (press release), 3/5/02

“The Least Harm Principle Suggests that Humans Should Eat Beef, Lamb, Dairy, not a Vegan Diet,” Proceedings of the Third Congress of the European Society for Agricultural and Food Ethics 2001: 449-450

“Veggie Tales: Can we really help ourselves, and our planet, by shunning meat and embracing our roots and vegetables?” TIME 2002; 160(3): 56

Another article on this:

http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html