Michael Johnson had poor technique, if you believe convential wisdom. But his 200/400 records were the craziest things I’ve ever seen, coming off the bend metres ahead of the rest, looking like he was jogging.
I agree with most of the others in this thread. If he’s beating records, where is the logic that he’s doing it “wrong”?
I have a question, which might be very stupid but still I will ask.
Poliquin stated it often, and also Thibs mentioned it that all things equal, if a sprinter increases his strength, he will run faster. ALL ELSE EQUAL.
Would that mean that if Bolt would be trained by, say Poliquin, or Tate and he would be able to put on 50 pounds on his squat or deadlift, that he would be remarkably faster?
If not, what would be the bottleneck? I have no idea about sprinting and power, let alone physics, so please dont flame 
No the key thing is that things are never equal. Plus strength can have diminishing returns on explosive activity after awhile.
[quote]WhiteCrow wrote:
I have a question, which might be very stupid but still I will ask.
Poliquin stated it often, and also Thibs mentioned it that all things equal, if a sprinter increases his strength, he will run faster. ALL ELSE EQUAL.
Would that mean that if Bolt would be trained by, say Poliquin, or Tate and he would be able to put on 50 pounds on his squat or deadlift, that he would be remarkably faster?
If not, what would be the bottleneck? I have no idea about sprinting and power, let alone physics, so please dont flame
[/quote]
It would only work if Bolt had access to Dominican avacodos.
^ wouldn’t work, Bolt would put on muscle too quickly
I know several coaches have mentioned this-- when you get an unbelievable athlete you pretty much just have to try to “not ruin him”
so i guess they would try to stick to injury prevention.
on cf.com there was already discussions however on the benefits of strength training and how they apply to Bolt. He has visibly put on a lot of mass since his early days and it has helped him.
[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
^ wouldn’t work, Bolt would put on muscle too quickly
I know several coaches have mentioned this-- when you get an unbelievable athlete you pretty much just have to try to “not ruin him”
so i guess they would try to stick to injury prevention.
on cf.com there was already discussions however on the benefits of strength training and how they apply to Bolt. He has visibly put on a lot of mass since his early days and it has helped him.[/quote]
No you’re wrong, he would just lean out naturally. In all seriousness though, he should be able to get even stronger with a top-notch strenght trainer right? Or is there some diminishing marginal return when it comes to strength increase and speed?
[quote]WhiteCrow wrote:
[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
^ wouldn’t work, Bolt would put on muscle too quickly
I know several coaches have mentioned this-- when you get an unbelievable athlete you pretty much just have to try to “not ruin him”
so i guess they would try to stick to injury prevention.
on cf.com there was already discussions however on the benefits of strength training and how they apply to Bolt. He has visibly put on a lot of mass since his early days and it has helped him.[/quote]
No you’re wrong, he would just lean out naturally. In all seriousness though, he should be able to get even stronger with a top-notch strenght trainer right? Or is there some diminishing marginal return when it comes to strength increase and speed?[/quote]
I remember Maurice Green stating that he felt squatting over 600 comprimised his performance and that his thighs would chafe too much
[quote]WhiteCrow wrote:
I have a question, which might be very stupid but still I will ask.
Poliquin stated it often, and also Thibs mentioned it that all things equal, if a sprinter increases his strength, he will run faster. ALL ELSE EQUAL.
Would that mean that if Bolt would be trained by, say Poliquin, or Tate and he would be able to put on 50 pounds on his squat or deadlift, that he would be remarkably faster?
If not, what would be the bottleneck? I have no idea about sprinting and power, let alone physics, so please dont flame
[/quote]
Poliquin’s statement is only true to the extent that one can increase muscular torque without increasing mass. As muscular size increases, the “angle of pull” changes unfavorably, thus diminishing one’s strength/mass ratio. I suspect that Poliquin refers to “strength” in a weight training context, i.e. one’s numbers in the weight room, in which case I don’t agree with him. Improvements in the weight room do not necessarily translate to greater speed, even if all other things remain equal. The reason being that heavy lifting is a specific skill which does not necessarily carry over to the track.
[quote]Cprimero wrote:
[quote]WhiteCrow wrote:
[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
^ wouldn’t work, Bolt would put on muscle too quickly
I know several coaches have mentioned this-- when you get an unbelievable athlete you pretty much just have to try to “not ruin him”
so i guess they would try to stick to injury prevention.
on cf.com there was already discussions however on the benefits of strength training and how they apply to Bolt. He has visibly put on a lot of mass since his early days and it has helped him.[/quote]
No you’re wrong, he would just lean out naturally. In all seriousness though, he should be able to get even stronger with a top-notch strenght trainer right? Or is there some diminishing marginal return when it comes to strength increase and speed?[/quote]
I remember Maurice Green stating that he felt squatting over 600 comprimised his performance and that his thighs would chafe too much
[/quote]
That’s why I don’t do it either…
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
I think with just about any top level athlete there could be something to work on to make them [i]better[i], I just feel like critiquing the form of the fastest human being the world has ever seen is being a little nit picky. Could he iron out his form to become even faster? Theoretically I’m sure the answer is yes. But, is the time it would take to focus on that worth putting what has worked for him so far on the back burner? It’s not like he needs to work on these things to be competetive. He’s pretty much competing against himself right now. He’ll get faster just from maturing and perfecting what has worked thus far. It just seems that if these technique flaws were that big a deal his coaches would’ve addressed them.[/quote]
Don’t disagree. We’re pretty much saying the same things. Could a former elite sprinter/coach watch a film of Bolt’s races and find things to critique? Yes. Could you do that with any elite-level athlete? Absolutely. Does it mean Bolt needs to change them? Probably not.
Edit: Why is everything we say italicized, White?
[quote]eic wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
I think with just about any top level athlete there could be something to work on to make them better, I just feel like critiquing the form of the fastest human being the world has ever seen is being a little nit picky. Could he iron out his form to become even faster? Theoretically I’m sure the answer is yes. But, is the time it would take to focus on that worth putting what has worked for him so far on the back burner? It’s not like he needs to work on these things to be competetive. He’s pretty much competing against himself right now. He’ll get faster just from maturing and perfecting what has worked thus far. It just seems that if these technique flaws were that big a deal his coaches would’ve addressed them.[/quote]
Don’t disagree. We’re pretty much saying the same things. Could a former elite sprinter/coach watch a film of Bolt’s races and find things to critique? Yes. Could you do that with any elite-level athlete? Absolutely. Does it mean Bolt needs to change them? Probably not.
Edit: Why is everything we say italicized, White?[/quote]
Haha, dude, I have no idea how my post came out like that. And yes, we seem to be saying pretty much the same thing.
EDIT: Holy shit, it’s still doin’ it!
Perhaps I didn’t explain myself too well.
I wasn’t suggesting he was “doing it wrong” but merely questioning whether these so-called flaws are easy to fix. And whether they compromise his running or not.
I know he’s an absolute beast-freak. Those are better than freak-beasts. I’m just HOPING that these are actually flaws that are holding him back. Because if it means that ironing them out (is easy) and if that means that the ironing out of them does not compromise the other awesome facets of his running, then I shudder to think what he’ll run in London 2012!
And all that said, he’s a bit of an anomoly I suppose? How many 6’4 sprinters have there been at a high level to be able to base critique of technique on?
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]eic wrote:
I don’t agree that just because Bolt is smashing records he automatically doesn’t have anything to work on, or that working on those things won’t make a difference in his times.
The knock on Bolt a couple years back was that he was relatively weak off the start, but used his crazy speedy to catch and beat guys deeper in the race. And, sure enough, in the olympics you’d see him slightly behind the front runners during the first 1/3 of the race, after which he would turn it on and just blaze past them.
But at the world championships, after working on his start, he came out strong and was even with, if not ahead of, the front runners before dropping the hammer. That’s how a world record holder was able to become even faster.
So I don’t doubt that Bolt may have some form imperfections like collapsing or having too much side-to-side motion that, if corrected, could result in faster times. My question, though, is how often are sprinters able to completely iron out every wrinkle in their running form? I suspect that every top level sprinter still has two or three very subtle things that they could improve upon. In other words, after working on his start and adapting to the event, Bolt may now simply be at the point where he’s like every other world-class sprinter in terms of technique: Really fucking fast with some subtle form miscues that could, theoretically, shave seconds off his time if corrected, but will likely (and understandably) stick with him for the rest of his career.
If my theory is right, then the only reason to bring up these flaws with Bolt is for the effect of saying, “As fast as he is, amazingly it is [theoretically] possible for him to get even faster!” [/quote]
I think with just about any top level athlete there could be something to work on to make them better, I just feel like critiquing the form of the fastest human being the world has ever seen is being a little nit picky. Could he iron out his form to become even faster? Theoretically I’m sure the answer is yes. But, is the time it would take to focus on that worth putting what has worked for him so far on the back burner? It’s not like he needs to work on these things to be competetive. He’s pretty much competing against himself right now. He’ll get faster just from maturing and perfecting what has worked thus far. It just seems that if these technique flaws were that big a deal his coaches would’ve addressed them.[/quote]
In a sport measured by 100ths of seconds, yes technique matters - especially in sprinting. That he is wildly successful right now and pretty much running against himself as you point out is besides the point and is a static view of things. At some point, this man will have to retire. I think it’s in every athlete’s best interest to squeeze out whatever potential he has and leave his best as his legacy. In sprinting, sloppy form costs 100th’s of seconds. His times, like that of all elite sprinters, will stand long after he is gone - so why not leave your absolute best? It’s almost as if some are arguing since he is the best by far right now, what does it matter. Well, he’s a record setter - it matters not now, but for the future, when he retires. This is not, contrary to what some may believe, like messing with a golfer’s swing, or a batter’s swing, or a pitcher’s delivery. We’re talking technique where time is literally lost via inefficient movement. That his technique may lack, but he is still obliterating records is amazing - it let’s you know this guy still have more to show us and it shows you what a damn freak he is, as if his times already didn’t show that
[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
^ wouldn’t work, Bolt would put on muscle too quickly
I know several coaches have mentioned this-- when you get an unbelievable athlete you pretty much just have to try to “not ruin him”
so i guess they would try to stick to injury prevention.
on cf.com there was already discussions however on the benefits of strength training and how they apply to Bolt. He has visibly put on a lot of mass since his early days and it has helped him.[/quote]
it’s not so much “not ruin him”, it’s more “risk management” - e.g., the benefit of the training v. the risk of injury. It’s why you don’t see a lot of professional athletes training weightlifting technique like many of us do - for instance, opting for a leg press rather than a squat. Would you want to be the strength coach that put Shaq on the sidelines b/c you had him squatting heavy and he was injured? that said, they are always training to get better, or stronger. ben johnson as we all know squatted very heavy - and he was the freak of his time, taking something like a projected 20 years off the 100m record with his famous run.
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
Perhaps I didn’t explain myself too well.
I wasn’t suggesting he was “doing it wrong” but merely questioning whether these so-called flaws are easy to fix. And whether they compromise his running or not.
I know he’s an absolute beast-freak. Those are better than freak-beasts. I’m just HOPING that these are actually flaws that are holding him back. Because if it means that ironing them out (is easy) and if that means that the ironing out of them does not compromise the other awesome facets of his running, then I shudder to think what he’ll run in London 2012!
And all that said, he’s a bit of an anomoly I suppose? How many 6’4 sprinters have there been at a high level to be able to base critique of technique on?[/quote]
They may not be “easy” but I’m sure he’s working on ironing them out - especially out of the blocks. Like I said earlier, you guys are taking a static view of things - that because he is obliterating the competition, it is almost implied here that he does not need to do anything but keep running. Well, the name of the game is lowering the time - and trust me, Bolt wants to continue to lower his time. He may be competing at this point only against himself, but I’m sure he’s motivated to drop that time as far as he can get it until he peaks. As he reaches his maturity as a sprinter - his genetic potential as it were, the only places to improve his time will be technique.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
Perhaps I didn’t explain myself too well.
I wasn’t suggesting he was “doing it wrong” but merely questioning whether these so-called flaws are easy to fix. And whether they compromise his running or not.
I know he’s an absolute beast-freak. Those are better than freak-beasts. I’m just HOPING that these are actually flaws that are holding him back. Because if it means that ironing them out (is easy) and if that means that the ironing out of them does not compromise the other awesome facets of his running, then I shudder to think what he’ll run in London 2012!
And all that said, he’s a bit of an anomoly I suppose? How many 6’4 sprinters have there been at a high level to be able to base critique of technique on?[/quote]
They may not be “easy” but I’m sure he’s working on ironing them out - especially out of the blocks. Like I said earlier, you guys are taking a static view of things - that because he is obliterating the competition, it is almost implied here that he does not need to do anything but keep running. Well, the name of the game is lowering the time - and trust me, Bolt wants to continue to lower his time. He may be competing at this point only against himself, but I’m sure he’s motivated to drop that time as far as he can get it until he peaks. As he reaches his maturity as a sprinter - his genetic potential as it were, the only places to improve his time will be technique.
[/quote]
Apologies; you may have misunderstood me. The reason I ask is because I’m not well versed in the sprint.
My personal sentiment is that if there is technique that he can improve, then he damn well should. I want to see what he is capable of. I mean, Michael Johnson was looking at his technique and talking about how much he could improve!
If Johnson believes that he can improve, then it makes me a happier man. As a resident of the part of London where the Olympics are coming, I’m hoping that I can get tickets to see him run.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]soccerplayer wrote:
^ wouldn’t work, Bolt would put on muscle too quickly
I know several coaches have mentioned this-- when you get an unbelievable athlete you pretty much just have to try to “not ruin him”
so i guess they would try to stick to injury prevention.
on cf.com there was already discussions however on the benefits of strength training and how they apply to Bolt. He has visibly put on a lot of mass since his early days and it has helped him.[/quote]
it’s not so much “not ruin him”, it’s more “risk management” - e.g., the benefit of the training v. the risk of injury. It’s why you don’t see a lot of professional athletes training weightlifting technique like many of us do - for instance, opting for a leg press rather than a squat. Would you want to be the strength coach that put Shaq on the sidelines b/c you had him squatting heavy and he was injured? that said, they are always training to get better, or stronger. ben johnson as we all know squatted very heavy - and he was the freak of his time, taking something like a projected 20 years off the 100m record with his famous run.
[/quote]
Bolt’s a funny dude - someone asked him if he could get close to 9 secs flat and his response was:
“Yes, but I’d need to be in my car” or words to that effect.
Bolt is a character and a freak show of an athlete.
I don’t see ANYONE running a sub 9seconds! That would be absolutely ridiculous…you would need a space age track and the most perfect setting to run it.
Koing
[quote]Koing wrote:
Bolt is a character and a freak show of an athlete.
I don’t see ANYONE running a sub 9seconds! That would be absolutely ridiculous…you would need a space age track and the most perfect setting to run it.
Koing[/quote]
Yeah, whilst I don’t run the 100m I can imagine just how much faster you’d need to be to get anywhere near sub-9. Is it anatomically/physically impossible?