Because people think it is cool to kill people. I’m not kidding. Just look at the movies we watch over here. Hollywood makes movies about people killing people and people think it is acceptable. I know it sounds really simple, but that is the case. Along with the fact that weapons are not hard to come by to begin with.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I would look towards young black males, and hispanics. Especially black on black crime. The numbers are staggering. I really hope I don’t get lectured for bringing it up. It’s not something that can be overlooked, and it would be tragic to do so.
Our drug laws are a big factor, in my opinion. They create a violent criminal element, where the only “crime” would have been against one’s self. And no, I don’t use any recreational drugs.
Furthermore, I’m a believer in the right to ownership. However, I think a nation has to have a solid moral backbone for freedoms like that. I think the US has slipped in that regard, and we’ve seen gun violence skyrocket in the last couple decades.
While I’m not a believer in government enforced morality, it would be nice see “shame” reintroduced in the private sector.[/quote]
Good post all around.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I would look towards young black males, and hispanics. Especially black on black crime. The numbers are staggering. I really hope I don’t get lectured for bringing it up. It’s not something that can be overlooked, and it would be tragic to do so.
You may be surprised to learn that underneath their skin color, blacks and hispanics are actually people like you and I.
I know this is hard to believe, but it’s true.
Maybe you should look a little deeper to find out where the problems arise from, instead of ceasing your investigation here.[/quote]
Well done vroom, way to prove him right by stepping up and blindly throwing around the racist tag. Sloth is pointing out that black-on-black crime, and especially murders, are a hugely disproportionate share of the total. Blacks are under 15% of the population, yet account for over half of both murderers and murder victims, I’m not gonna bother to look up the exact number but that’s close enough.
There are a lot of reasons for this, including racism, illegitimacy, permissive attitudes ushered in by the Sixties, the de facto racist nature of the “War on Drugs,” etc. Sloth is noting a statistical fact, you’re being a demagogue. That’s a great way to stifle debate and make this forum stupider. Congrats.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Of course, the availability of guns plays an important role in the staggering figures of homocides in the US. I personally don’t believe it has little to do with violence on TV or culture. I think most of the blame is on savage capitalism that leaves a huge gap between the haves and have-nots. When a kid can’t afford to go to school, and sees someone driving a half-million dollars car, chances are that he’ll get pissed and shoot himself out of poverty.
[/quote]
You might want to look in the mirror. Economic inequality is higher in the U.S. than Europe, and getting worse, but we do a far better job of assimilating minorities and immigrants. Compare Muslims in Michigan to those in Marseille. Or Sweden. Europe has much more of a problem in that regard than America does.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
There are a lot of reasons for this, including racism, illegitimacy, permissive attitudes ushered in by the Sixties, the de facto racist nature of the “War on Drugs,” etc. Sloth is noting a statistical fact, you’re being a demagogue. That’s a great way to stifle debate and make this forum stupider. Congrats.[/quote]
Get a life.
This “statistical fact” is often gleefully reported by those with racist attitudes.
Instead of stifling debate, I was suggesting that one should look further than simply looking for statistics based on race. Given that people are people, it might make sense to dig up what it is that is making certain groups more likely to adopt a criminal lifestyle.
In general, having people think a bit more before opening their mouths is not stifling debate. I certainly haven’t said it can’t be discussed, or that statistics can’t be quoted. However, the language used, containing the phrase “look towards” seemed to indicate a questionable attitude.
Sloth, apparently, was quite able to speak up for himself and clarify his statement.
Demagogue my ass. Idiot.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
You might want to look in the mirror. Economic inequality is higher in the U.S. than Europe, and getting worse, but we do a far better job of assimilating minorities and immigrants. Compare Muslims in Michigan to those in Marseille. Or Sweden. Europe has much more of a problem in that regard than America does.[/quote]
You are on a roll this evening. Feeling a bit defensive about crime or poverty issue are we?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I would look towards young black males, and hispanics. Especially black on black crime. The numbers are staggering. I really hope I don’t get lectured for bringing it up. It’s not something that can be overlooked, and it would be tragic to do so.
You may be surprised to learn that underneath their skin color, blacks and hispanics are actually people like you and I.
I know this is hard to believe, but it’s true.
Maybe you should look a little deeper to find out where the problems arise from, instead of ceasing your investigation here.
Woah! I made no conclusions as to why hispancis and blacks are grossly overrepresented. Sorry man, but you jumped the gun (pardon the pun) on this one. These minorities are not only over represented as perps in gun violence, but also as victims to gun violence.
Even when compared against other minority groups. As for the reasons why? That alone is an ongoing debate. It’s something he, as the student, should research and report. I’m not doing his homework for him.
And, it wasn’t the only angle I gave him. I suggested looking at the possibility that drugs laws create more violence.
Or, for him to explore a general decline in morality.
[/quote]
Go easy Sloth, in the same way that anyone with anything negative to say about Iraq is labeled an America-hater by the right, the left will be the first call you a racist if you say anything regarding race.
mike
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The Price of Freedom:
If a citizenry has no weapons, then a government can abuse the citizens with impunity. Democracy came into full flower when cheap and readily available guns came about. Let’s face it: humans love to exert power over defenseless others. Hard to abuse your people though, if they can shoot the abusers in the face.
The gun, especially the handgun, is the greatest liberator in the history of the world.
I really don’t feel like getting into the gun-rights fight today, but HH I want to know why you think it is the handgun and not the military pattern rifle that carries your distinction as the liberator? If the cops come over to violate my liberty my handgun isn’t going to stop them, my AK is.
mike
[/quote]
The handgun is the easiest for civilians to acquire and hide. Imagine if every Jew in Nazi-occupied Europe pulled out a handgun and shot one Nazi bastard in the face as they came to round them up. But of course, guns were illegal…
Handguns make oppressive regimes think twice. Sure the cops can mow an individual; what if there were, say, 20 million to mow down?
Military might is all well and good but as we’re discovering in Iraq, one individual with a simple weapon can do a lot. (This is why I said we should have carpet bombed the place.)
[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I would look towards young black males, and hispanics. Especially black on black crime. The numbers are staggering. I really hope I don’t get lectured for bringing it up. It’s not something that can be overlooked, and it would be tragic to do so.
You may be surprised to learn that underneath their skin color, blacks and hispanics are actually people like you and I.
I know this is hard to believe, but it’s true.
Maybe you should look a little deeper to find out where the problems arise from, instead of ceasing your investigation here.[/quote]
His point was not about skin color but about societal problems.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
You might want to look in the mirror. Economic inequality is higher in the U.S. than Europe, and getting worse, but we do a far better job of assimilating minorities and immigrants. Compare Muslims in Michigan to those in Marseille. [/quote]
What’s assimilating minorities got anything to do with gun violence?
The reasons Muslims went to Michigan and Marseille are TOTALLY different. You don’t seem to know that Algeria was a French department, and that they moved people to France to fight in wars and get jobs nobody else wanted. Those 1st generations had no knowledge of French whatsoever. How do you expect their descendant to be anything else but poor?
We’re digressing. So, I’ll give you the point that the US does a better job at integrating minorities than Europe, but one must put it in historical context and not just jump at conclusions.
Again, how’s that of any relevance to the guns?
[quote]lixy wrote:
What’s assimilating minorities got anything to do with gun violence?
…
You don’t seem to know that Algeria was a French department, and that they moved people to France to fight in wars and get jobs nobody else wanted. Those 1st generations had no knowledge of French whatsoever. How do you expect their descendant to be anything else but poor?
…
So, I’ll give you the point that the US does a better job at integrating minorities than Europe, but one must put it in historical context and not just jump at conclusions.[/quote]
earlier,
[quote]lixy wrote:
I personally don’t believe it has little to do with violence on TV or culture. I think most of the blame is on savage capitalism that leaves a huge gap between the haves and have-nots.[/quote]
Doesn’t kicking your own ass get tiring?
-
Dismissive attitudes towards violence in pop culture.
-
Sensationalism of violent crimes by news media.
-
Relative ease in which weapons can be obtained by anyone.
-
Large income/educational gap between the haves and have-nots.
-
Devaluation of human life by government and corporate interests; especially in low income neighborhoods.
[quote]lucasa wrote:
lixy wrote:
What’s assimilating minorities got anything to do with gun violence?
…
You don’t seem to know that Algeria was a French department, and that they moved people to France to fight in wars and get jobs nobody else wanted. Those 1st generations had no knowledge of French whatsoever. How do you expect their descendant to be anything else but poor?
…
So, I’ll give you the point that the US does a better job at integrating minorities than Europe, but one must put it in historical context and not just jump at conclusions.
earlier,
lixy wrote:
I personally don’t believe it has little to do with violence on TV or culture. I think most of the blame is on savage capitalism that leaves a huge gap between the haves and have-nots.
Doesn’t kicking your own ass get tiring?
[/quote]
I don’t see the connection. Did I say that it was the fault of anything in particular or did I point out to the myriad of elements that participate in the gun-related homocide rates in the US. Heck, I even alluded to the legacy of the wild west era.
If you got a point, state it.
Incidentally, and seeing that I struck a sensibility chord with my economical gap theory, explain to us why you have such an astounding jail population in the US?
You guys don’t seem to understand that happiness is a relative concept, and that people care more about what their neighbors have than what they have.
[quote]lixy wrote:
You guys don’t seem to understand that happiness is a relative concept, and that people care more about what their neighbors have than what they have.[/quote]
We do get that envy is one of the driving forces of socialism.
[quote]orion wrote:
We do get that envy is one of the driving forces of socialism. [/quote]
I’ll stick with equality thank you very much.
[quote]lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
We do get that envy is one of the driving forces of socialism.
I’ll stick with equality thank you very much.
[/quote]
So that nobody has to be jealous anymore?
Yup, equal poverty for everyone…
Socialism isnt the solution.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Misterhamper wrote:
Hello. I am a danish 15-year old kiddo, who have to go to the english exam, the oral one, in two weeks. My subject is about gun-violence, the first part about Virginia Tech, the last part about general gun violence. I have seen Michael Moore’s “Bowling for Columbine” and the way he shows it, America have alot more gun-violence than Canada or any other countries.
It was, as far as I can remember, 12.000 yearly gun-homicides in the States versus fx. 300 kills in Germany. USA has only 3.5 as many people as Germany, but the gun-kill-rate is 40 times as big. How come? Is it the media, that does it?
Is it because the guns are so easy to get (compared to Denmark, there’s no guns at all you can buy and it’s probably hard to get over the borders too, and there’s strict rules about hunting-rifles)? Or how come? Would it ‘stop’ if the NRA got closed? Probably some of you guys living in the States would know better.
Of course, the availability of guns plays an important role in the staggering figures of homocides in the US. I personally don’t believe it has little to do with violence on TV or culture. I think most of the blame is on savage capitalism that leaves a huge gap between the haves and have-nots. When a kid can’t afford to go to school, and sees someone driving a half-million dollars car, chances are that he’ll get pissed and shoot himself out of poverty.
It’s a contemporary version of the wild west.
For a detailed account of the homocide numbers by country, check out the Wiki:
Please come with all the input you guys have and keep a civil discussion, so I can get an A+ 
A piece of advice, when asking for help on the web, NEVER say that it’s for your school work. A better way to get what you want, would be to show that you have a genuine interest in the topic.
Best of luck,[/quote]
Lixy is close on this one, but not too close.
It is true, in my opinion, that the class differences in the US is a contributing factor in the violence. However, the facts are that the violence is not frequently directed by the “have-nots” towards the “haves”. Typically it is one poor person killing another poor person. This fact sort of removes Lixy’s idea of class warfare as a cause.
The issue is that the US started out as a free country where you got what you worked for. There were very little welfare programs or programs designed to redistribute the wealth one person has worked for to someone else who has not. Then the “new deal” came in with the promise to “assist” the poor to achieve better lives. Since then this program has been increased and increased to where some people live their entire lives on welfare without working a day.
Based on this program, or I should say an overexpansion of this program, many people have been given an institutional mindset in that they grow up with a sense of entitlement. They feel they deserve all the same money, things, prestige, etc that people who work posses or gain.
So what has occurred is that the welfare system that promised to give people all they NEED is now looked at to give people all they WANT. Combine this with a misguided sense of entitlement and you have people with money to eat and live, plenty of spare time, an a huge envy of those who have more than they because they worked for it. Then they go buy a gun and rob a liquor store to get extra money to buy those air-Jordan sneakers or that latest CD from Rapper Kill-Whitie!
So the basic problem is that our system has created a group of people who feel they are entitled to whatever they want without actually having to work for it.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
However, the facts are that the violence is not frequently directed by the “have-nots” towards the “haves”. Typically it is one poor person killing another poor person. This fact sort of removes Lixy’s idea of class warfare as a cause. [/quote]
Could being poor have something to do with it? Just a wild guess…
[quote]So what has occurred is that the welfare system that promised to give people all they NEED is now looked at to give people all they WANT. Combine this with a misguided sense of entitlement and you have people with money to eat and live, plenty of spare time, an a huge envy of those who have more than they because they worked for it. Then they go buy a gun and rob a liquor store to get extra money to buy those air-Jordan sneakers or that latest CD from Rapper Kill-Whitie!
So the basic problem is that our system has created a group of people who feel they are entitled to whatever they want without actually having to work for it.
[/quote]
Ok, skip that first question, I think you answered it.
Indeed, in societies with relatively uniform distribution of wealth, or at least within cultures that don’t exacerbate the gap by constantly rubbing the nose of the poor in it (ever watch MTV’s cribs?), a young kid is less likely to get worked up and channel his/her impotence by sticking molten lead in other people’s flesh.
Good post.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
However, the facts are that the violence is not frequently directed by the “have-nots” towards the “haves”. Typically it is one poor person killing another poor person. This fact sort of removes Lixy’s idea of class warfare as a cause.
Could being poor have something to do with it? Just a wild guess…
So what has occurred is that the welfare system that promised to give people all they NEED is now looked at to give people all they WANT. Combine this with a misguided sense of entitlement and you have people with money to eat and live, plenty of spare time, an a huge envy of those who have more than they because they worked for it. Then they go buy a gun and rob a liquor store to get extra money to buy those air-Jordan sneakers or that latest CD from Rapper Kill-Whitie!
So the basic problem is that our system has created a group of people who feel they are entitled to whatever they want without actually having to work for it.
Indeed, in societies with relatively uniform distribution of wealth, or at least within cultures that don’t exacerbate the gap by constantly rubbing the nose of the poor in it (ever watch MTV’s cribs?), a young kid is less likely to get worked up and channel his/her impotence by sticking molten lead in other people’s flesh.
[/quote]
Lorisco, you’re dead on with this. I agree 100%
I have spoken with gang members who have told me this. “We won’t work unless we get 20 dollars an hour.” “We’re not working at McDonalds for minimum wage.” But you can’t get 20 dollar an hour jobs without an education, and these people piss away a free education. They would rather sell drugs and kill themselves, thinking they are taking some sort of short cut. It’s a short cut to the grave.
But one question on all of this:
How does the non-uniform distribution of wealth explain the Columbine, Virginia Tech incidents? Those murderers were not poor lower class citizens yet they used guns to kill. Explain that one.