USA and Paganism?

[kroby]

[quote]GollyGosh wrote:
Second, the statement that Christianity is for the “mind-numb masses” is pretty laughable. Kroby, I don’t know where you came up with this idea or what evidence you have to support it, so I really don’t know where to begin.[/quote]

We’re talking about faith. This exceptional institution has no evidence. There simply is none. I called it mind numbing for the masses because this religion takes the very humanity away from humans. It has time after time stunted the human potential for scientific exploration and explanation. It caused humans to not think for hundreds of years.

Case in point: Galileo. The world is flat indeed! If Darwin were three humdred years earlier, he’d have been killed for heresy. And let’s not forget the most favorite time: the Spanish Inquisition. Oh, yes, this was the climax of religious fervor. Think our way, or die. Definitive support for my assertion that this particular religion is for the mind numb masses.

Without offering any support for your opinion, you come off as being prejudiced against Christians. In fact, you are acting somewhat like the KKK members that you rightly criticize.

Prejudiced against Christians? Bigot, maybe, but not prejudiced.

Prejudice:

1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4. such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.
5. damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.

I have firsthand knowledge, as I was raised christian. Thus my feelings are not preconceived or hostile, and I offer no damage other than the truth to christians. As for you calling me KKK… Absurd and no offense taken.

[quote]
I find it somewhat ironic that you then go on to talk about “priceless hypocrisy.” [/quote]

Still seem ironic? It is hypocricy, and I love it. What I find most distressing is that Jesus shows us the way, but the message has strayed so far off for personal gains for the “most reverend” and all that other bullshit.

Who came up with the idea of needing someone or something to intercess between God and Her People? That’s the lie. And that is the beaurocracy that is the Christian Church, and all derivations. An Oligarchy. Oh, sorry: Theocracy. Scam.

I find hypocricy as: the pope lives a lavish and rich life, but espouses that the rich can easier get through heaven by passing through the eye of a needle than the poor or some such rot. Can you say “duh?” Duped again.

[Digital_Chainsaw]

[quote]simon-hecubus wrote:
thor wrote:
In the USA we only persecute Christians. In fact Christianity is the only religion people can openly mock without being accused of “hate-mongering” or being “intolerant”.

Oh Jesus H! I am so sick of that fucking garbage.

The main reason many Christians are mocked or ridiculed is that they insist on forcing their belief systems on everyone else.

If it were up to Christians, our kids would be growing up even more ignorant than they are now, back-alley abortions would be ruining young girls for good or killing them, and gays would be living on an island like lepers.[/quote]

Wow. I didn’t read your post until after I had submitted my last one. This is, like, psychic-eerie, man.

[simon_hecubus]

[quote]Digital Chainsaw wrote:
Wow. I didn’t read your post until after I had submitted my last one. This is, like, psychic-eerie, man.[/quote]

Far out, man.

I like your points a lot. Your post is more calm and thought-out, as opposed to the spontaneous combustion of mine. It looks like we’re on a similar wavelength though.

Later,
Scott

[harris447]

[quote]simon-hecubus wrote:
thor wrote:
In the USA we only persecute Christians. In fact Christianity is the only religion people can openly mock without being accused of “hate-mongering” or being “intolerant”.

Oh Jesus H! I am so sick of that fucking garbage.

The main reason many Christians are mocked or ridiculed is that they insist on forcing their belief systems on everyone else.

If it were up to Christians, our kids would be growing up even more ignorant than they are now, back-alley abortions would be ruining young girls for good or killing them, and gays would be living on an island like lepers.[/quote]

Gays do live on an island: it’s called Manhattan.

[GollyGosh]

“I called it mind numbing for the masses because this religion takes the very humanity away from humans. It has time after time stunted the human potential for scientific exploration and explanation. It caused humans to not think for hundreds of years.”

I think we need to first clarify our definition of humanity before arguing over Christianity’s effects on it. It seems that by humanity you mean the ability to reason, in which case I would agree with you that the Christian church has often interfered with humanity’s pursuit of scientific explanation.

However, please do not mistake the Christian church with Christianity. In fact, there are many Christians (past and present) who will admit that some of the church leaders mistakenly refuted the explanations of science (and many still do) because they did not find them compatible with Christianity. I think science is a very useful tool for humans and that Christians who shun its explanations do themselves a disservice. Going back to our main point, yes the church has often acted scared of the facts offered through scientific thought.

In that sense, I agree that the church (not Christianity, mind you) has slowed human progress. In those instances, it has forgotten that Christianity explains the “why” of the universe while science explains the “how.”
I would, however, like to revisit that definition of humanity.

Before we were working with a definition of humanity as the ability to reason, which I think is a key component of humanity. However, I think this definition is incomplete, if only because those who are best at reasoning are often the least human. In fact, the most human of people can sometimes be quite unintelligent. What makes people human, in my opinion, is virtue.

Courage, compassion, integrity, humility…these make us more human than reason alone ever could. With that definition of humanity, I think it can be fairly said that Christianity fully encourages our humanity.

Yes, the Christian church has acted in deplorable ways, but no one can honestly say that such acts are the true expressions of Christianity. In fact, I think why so many non-Christians mention those acts is because it causes embarrassment for the Christian?why would it cause embarrassment if it were not something regretted?

In short, I think it is important to make a distinction between Christianity and the mistakes of the Christian church. However, we also should not dismiss the church as a useless institution. (That would be like never driving a car because so many people have died in car accidents.) The sermons delivered at truly Christian churches encourage listeners to accept Christ by submitting their wills to God.

And God’s will is that we obey His commandments, the two greatest of which are to love God and to love our neighbor. Yes, following these commands often involves self-denial, but Christianity also claims that the person who seeks to save his life will lose it while the one who gives up his life for Christ’s sake will find it. (As a side note, this is much more practical advice than it may seem.

Notice how the most selfish of people and those who care least about others also have the smallest personalities and the most miserable lives?) The church’s role in all of this is to encourage Christians and give them an outlet to practice their faith.
In short, we ought not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Even though the Christian church commits errors, it does not logically follow that Christianity is a bogus religion or that the Christian church is an entirely useless or even harmful institution. Most Christians are embarrassed of their church’s errors, but are also committed to making it an institution that correctly represents its Founder. We are like a man who loves his wife, not because she is beautiful but because she is his wife.

[Grimnuruk]

[quote]cadav wrote:
Hi,
I’m wondering which is the common USA thinking about paganism movements and pagan religions…

thanks for the feedback ;)[/quote]

As you can see from the responses here, most people in the U.S. have a black or white, either/or mentality when it comes to belief systems.

There is the accepted (some form of christianity) and the unaccepted or OTHER (everything else). Your question on paganism is immediately viewed by some as an invitation to discuss christianity, not paganism. This alone is a very important clue to the nature of American thought on paganism (or actually the lack thereof).

[Zap_Branigan]

I believe most in the US don’t even think about paganism or if they do they think it is silly.

[Beowolf]

Just to clear some stuff up:

Paganism: Any form of nature worship.

Atheism: The beliefe that there are no/is no god(s), and/or any sort of higherpower, after life, or reincarnation.

Agnosticism: The beliefe that it is impossible to prove the existence, or non-existence of a higher power. In other words, we don’t give a shit whether God exists or not. We’ll live our lives like were gonna be gone at 70, and if theres an afterlife, whoopee!

Religion is the opiate of the masses. It is a means by which people are controlled, for better or for worse. It can bring order, but too much order is never a good thing.

I don’t care whether the Bible, the Koran, or any other book has inheritly good teachings. They do. Love people. Treat people nicely. Give the poor money, the gunry food, the homeless shelter.

If one does not follow the actual example, but simply takes part in the ceremony of religion, they are merely cliinging to the order and organization their religion provides. Or, they fear death and non-existence, or they simply wish to beleive they are some how superior to any other sac of flesh on this planet because of their beliefes.

Another thing: The bible belt is full of Southern Baptists who are anti…pretty much everything. It’s better in some areas, worse in others, depending on the people.

Having a young child ask you where your “horns” are gives me that impression (scared the crap outta me). It depends on the people, not the region. Their just happen to be a lot of Southern Baptist with very arrogant views in the bible belt.

All religions, at their core, have similar messages.

“Be a good fucking person dumbass!”

[stumpy]

Hmm. it’s a lil ironic to think tjat as a state we in minnesota were ridiculed when our ex-gov. Jesse Ventua was ridiculed for saying that religion was a crutch for the weak mind

[cap_nsalty]

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
cadav wrote:
Hi,
I’m wondering which is the common USA thinking about paganism movements and pagan religions…

thanks for the feedback

As you can see from the responses here, most people in the U.S. have a black or white, either/or mentality when it comes to belief systems.

There is the accepted (some form of christianity) and the unaccepted or OTHER (everything else). Your question on paganism is immediately viewed by some as an invitation to discuss christianity, not paganism. This alone is a very important clue to the nature of American thought on paganism (or actually the lack thereof).
[/quote]

Not, it’s just the nature of the word paganism. It was used by Christians to denote people who weren’t Christian. So if you bring up paganism, Christianity is a natural progression. Also paganism is so broad of a subject there’s nothing to say about it, whereas Christianity is a definite belief system.

[cap_nsalty]

[quote]stumpy wrote:
Hmm. it’s a lil ironic to think tjat as a state we in minnesota were ridiculed when our ex-gov. Jesse Ventua was ridiculed for saying that religion was a crutch for the weak mind
[/quote]

Ironic? In the words of Andre the Giant “I do not think that word means what you think it means.”

[Hanzo]

[quote]Digital Chainsaw wrote:
thor wrote:

As far as openly mocking Christianity, hell, after 1600 years of brutal oppression, the slaughter of millions, the torture/ruin of millions more, and setting science back about a millenia, I think verbal jabs are a pretty light sentence. It’s kind of like allowing Ted Bundy to remain free on the condition that every once in awhile, someone would make fun of him in public.[/quote]

Nonsense, Christianity itself were not responsible for all the mess in the past. Rather, it was the work of power mongers that kept people persecuted and opppressed.

Matter of fact, in the last 100 years atheist regimes have murdered and persecuted more people than the church ever did in the past 1000 years if not since the beginning of it’s existence.

[Hanzo]

[quote]GollyGosh wrote:
“I called it mind numbing for the masses because this religion takes the very humanity away from humans. It has time after time stunted the human potential for scientific exploration and explanation. It caused humans to not think for hundreds of years.”

I think we need to first clarify our definition of humanity before arguing over Christianity’s effects on it. It seems that by humanity you mean the ability to reason, in which case I would agree with you that the Christian church has often interfered with humanity’s pursuit of scientific explanation.

However, please do not mistake the Christian church with Christianity. In fact, there are many Christians (past and present) who will admit that some of the church leaders mistakenly refuted the explanations of science (and many still do) because they did not find them compatible with Christianity. I think science is a very useful tool for humans and that Christians who shun its explanations do themselves a disservice. Going back to our main point, yes the church has often acted scared of the facts offered through scientific thought.

In that sense, I agree that the church (not Christianity, mind you) has slowed human progress. In those instances, it has forgotten that Christianity explains the “why” of the universe while science explains the “how.”
I would, however, like to revisit that definition of humanity.

Before we were working with a definition of humanity as the ability to reason, which I think is a key component of humanity. However, I think this definition is incomplete, if only because those who are best at reasoning are often the least human. In fact, the most human of people can sometimes be quite unintelligent. What makes people human, in my opinion, is virtue.

Courage, compassion, integrity, humility…these make us more human than reason alone ever could. With that definition of humanity, I think it can be fairly said that Christianity fully encourages our humanity.

Yes, the Christian church has acted in deplorable ways, but no one can honestly say that such acts are the true expressions of Christianity. In fact, I think why so many non-Christians mention those acts is because it causes embarrassment for the Christian?why would it cause embarrassment if it were not something regretted?

In short, I think it is important to make a distinction between Christianity and the mistakes of the Christian church. However, we also should not dismiss the church as a useless institution. (That would be like never driving a car because so many people have died in car accidents.) The sermons delivered at truly Christian churches encourage listeners to accept Christ by submitting their wills to God.

And God’s will is that we obey His commandments, the two greatest of which are to love God and to love our neighbor. Yes, following these commands often involves self-denial, but Christianity also claims that the person who seeks to save his life will lose it while the one who gives up his life for Christ’s sake will find it. (As a side note, this is much more practical advice than it may seem.

Notice how the most selfish of people and those who care least about others also have the smallest personalities and the most miserable lives?) The church’s role in all of this is to encourage Christians and give them an outlet to practice their faith.
In short, we ought not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Even though the Christian church commits errors, it does not logically follow that Christianity is a bogus religion or that the Christian church is an entirely useless or even harmful institution. Most Christians are embarrassed of their church’s errors, but are also committed to making it an institution that correctly represents its Founder. We are like a man who loves his wife, not because she is beautiful but because she is his wife.
[/quote]

precisely on point

[cadav]

[quote]GollyGosh wrote:
I’m not a frequent poster on this board, but I do want to reply to some of the opinions that are being expressed in this thread.

First, the assertion that the gods of polytheistic paganism are the same as the monotheistic God of the Judeo-Christian tradition (and even the Muslim faith) is simply false.
[/quote]
i’m sorry but this is correct…
if you observe the main pagan tradition you can find incredible somilitude among dor example Jahve and Seth…

Worshipping the many gods of the natural world (paganism) is not the same as worshipping the God that created the natural world (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).

again a little “error”.
Paganism it is not only the worshipping of natural gods, but is the worshipping of different religion other than the 3 monotheistic…

Second, the statement that Christianity is for the “mind-numb masses” is pretty laughable. Kroby, I don’t know where you came up with this idea or what evidence you have to support it, so I really don’t know where to begin.

looking at history of Christian religion there are quite a lot of evidence.
Starting from Costantino, to Nicea, to new testaments readings and again over to gnostic cults of early christians.

Also if you read the writings of the fathers of The Church (S Agostino for example or S Ireneo) you can find a lot of information on how the Cristianity was “modelled” to achieve its goal…
(as every other religion!)

Subjugation for the sake of subjugation just doesn’t make any sense to me.

it is a matter of power… as for every other religion… it easy to undestand. And looking to the history it’s easy to understand. If you need more historical evidence i can give you a lot of “example” based on historical evidence…

Maybe I’m too much of a rationalist, but I would like to have some justification for that subjugation. One may say that church leaders are just power-hungry narcissists, but that opinion is again not based in reality.

really? and where is the evidence of that?

If you look at the history of Europe after the falling of Roman Empire you can cleary (sp?) see how power-hungriness there are…

The church leader are man… not “idea”

In fact, the best church leaders devote their lives to serving their followers. There are, of course, exceptions who become leaders where the religion is all a ploy to increase their power, but those “leaders” are generally rejected by the church as imposters.

Really? give me an example please.

[cadav]

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
Sorry cadav, but uhh…you’re wrong. You can use the term pagan however you want, but the commonly accepted definition is anyone who worships something other than the Christian God (for example the sun, Ares, a piece of dirt, etc).
[/quote]

sure, and this is what i have wrote (i hope! sometimes my english is really crappy).

To a deeper degree pagan is everythink referede to pre Christian religion.

[ron33]

[quote]cadav wrote:
etaco wrote:
If you’re in the bible belt and you’re a pagan you might want to keep your religion to yourself. If you’re in a more cosmopolitan region then no one will really care; you’ll be just another counter-culture type.

what is the bible belt?

i’m really curious 'cause the USA have to me a double face of freedom and biggotry (sp?) I’m really intrested in the spirituality of the people as a eay to understand them in a more complete way[/quote]Cadav , I live in the midwest united states.

our dominate religious group is german catholic in my city,with a smaller italian catholic group,they almost seem as they are two different religions,with the Italian catholic group seem to be much nicer more religious type people.they dont put other people down because they are not the same religion.where the german catholic group always asking people what religion they are.

they also have a network in business the court system police department fire dept. etc. where they try to promote people of same religion no matter if they are qualified.I had some friends growing up that attended a church that i believe was apostalic religion,most of the people were from southern U.S. at this church.I thought it was kind of strange that once my friend and his brothers reached the age of 13yrs.

they werent allowed to play sports,go to movies etc.,even if it was a Walt Disney movie,but if they did something that the church considered wrong it was O.K. to punish them by beating them with a board ,strap etc. I personally dont know anyone that says they are pagan,but we do have a lot of different religions that have some odd ways and habits,and alot of them are run by money motivated people ,not real religious people.

[kroby]

[quote]GollyGosh wrote:
In that sense, I agree that the church (not Christianity, mind you) has slowed human progress. In those instances, it has forgotten that Christianity explains the “why” of the universe while science explains the “how.” [/quote]

OK. I concurr. It’s the Church, not christianity that I have issue with. But it is also the Church that holds doctrine and focuses it’s parishoners.

In short, I think it is important to make a distinction between Christianity and the mistakes of the Christian church. However, we also should not dismiss the church as a useless institution. (That would be like never driving a car because so many people have died in car accidents.) The sermons delivered at truly Christian churches encourage listeners to accept Christ by submitting their wills to God.

Submitting their wills? God requires a submission of will? Did God not offer choice or free will? If not, then why do we have it? If so, then… why would God give us the ability to choose, when a choice could be against the will of God? And do you presume to have the ability to go against the Will of God? NO. This “submission of will” is a crock in order to control the obvious non thinker or the afraid. God gave us the ability to reason, to choose. Submission is a wholly human expression, and demeans the intentions of God.

[quote]Notice how the most selfish of people and those who care least about others also have the smallest personalities and the most miserable lives?) The church’s role in all of this is to encourage Christians and give them an outlet to practice their faith.
In short, we ought not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Even though the Christian church commits errors, it does not logically follow that Christianity is a bogus religion or that the Christian church is an entirely useless or even harmful institution. Most Christians are embarrassed of their church’s errors, but are also committed to making it an institution that correctly represents its Founder. We are like a man who loves his wife, not because she is beautiful but because she is his wife. [/quote]

This is the crux. The Church should be all about developing within each individual a spiritual mastery, and then get out of the way. Sort of like an understanding. This is certainly attainable. But the Church doesn’t stop. It continues to admonish the followers to continue to repent, etc. because of the “not worthy” tripe it spews Sunday after Sunday. Spirituality and God communication is not cornered by any religion.

Anyone can do it. Christanity is just one way. I didn’t say it was a bogus religion. There are millions of people that need it. And it’s there for them. Paganism is another. Older. Original. Supplanted by Christianity for the rule of humans, as it has been observed that religion is an effective way to rule. And don’t believe it’s not in the business of self preservation. “Keep 'em coming and don’t let them stop coming” is an understood doctrine. Control.

[kroby]

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Religion is the opiate of the masses. It is a means by which people are controlled, for better or for worse. It can bring order, but too much order is never a good thing.

I don’t care whether the Bible, the Koran, or any other book has inheritly good teachings. They do. Love people. Treat people nicely. Give the poor money, the gunry food, the homeless shelter.

If one does not follow the actual example, but simply takes part in the ceremony of religion, they are merely cliinging to the order and organization their religion provides. Or, they fear death and non-existence, or they simply wish to beleive they are some how superior to any other sac of flesh on this planet because of their beliefes.

All religions, at their core, have similar messages.

“Be a good fucking person dumbass!”[/quote]

Encore.

[Digital_Chainsaw]

[quote]Hanzo wrote:
Nonsense, Christianity itself were not responsible for all the mess in the past. Rather, it was the work of power mongers that kept people persecuted and opppressed.[/quote]

Right, the same kind of power mongers who wrote the Bible in the first place; that’s whom it was designed for. You can find this much out by studying Bible history and learning not just what made the cut, but (IMHO, more importantly) the tons of would-be scripture that did not. Fundamentalists, then and now, aren’t making it up when they spew their Biblical bile and hatred at whatever group they disagree with. In fact, at times they are the only ones actually reading it off the page! Moderates make apologies and skip over the gruesome and/or embarassing parts of the Bible.

So, according to you, “Christianity itself” is a seperate entity from those who practice it? WTF? I suppose another group was responsible for the Inquisition?

[quote]Matter of fact, in the last 100 years atheist regimes have murdered and persecuted more people than the church ever did in the past 1000 years if not since the beginning of it’s existence.
[/quote]

Please show me one example of an “atheist regime”. That is, a government that seeks, as it’s sole end, the erradication of belief in a god or gods. After studying history at the university level, I have yet to come across one.

Soviet Union? Please. That dead horse has been beaten by fundies for years, and it’s just as erroneous today as it ever was. Atheism is a by-product of Marxist doctrine, not it’s objective.

Nazi Germany? Hitler was a staunch Catholic (he boldly proclaims it in Mein Kampf) who got “warm congratulations” from the Pope every year on his birthday. The Vatican knew for many years what Hitler and the Nazis were up to, and looked the other way as long as they had, what our modern government would term, “plausible deniability”.

Did Hitler harass/persecute Christian clergy? Sure, but only to the extent that they opposed his political objectives, and even then no more than any other non-Jewish religion. Like all Christian dictators, he wanted God on his side, but on his terms, and independent thinking outside those terms was strongly discouraged by many means, up to and including death.

It’s not my job to teach you history. Check this stuff out for yourself in objective sources not biased toward Christianity and have a ball. Or, what I’m sure is the more likely to happen, stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and yell, “LA, LA, LA, LA…”

[simon_hecubus]

[quote]Hanzo wrote:
Matter of fact, in the last 100 years atheist regimes have murdered and persecuted more people than the church ever did in the past 1000 years if not since the beginning of it’s existence.[/quote]

Regimes? Are you talking about specific governments? If not, your post is total BS with no basis in fact.

I think your concept of how many people the Church (which church BTW?) has killed is more than a little low.

Your definition of atheist may be off too. Just because a regime doesn’t have Christ as it’s central religious figure doesn’t make them atheists. You knew that, right?

I’m more confused than whenI started typing. Just WTF were you talking about anyway?