[quote]FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PB-Crawl wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well, they got ALL of the construction jobs during the housing boom.
I’d like to see some evidence backing this statement.
Go drive by a construction site. [/quote]
No, you’re not allowed to believe what you see with your own lying eyes.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
No one is talking about anything near 6% for a flat tax. figures between 20-35% are more the norm, or a two-tiered system of sorts. Even with around 20-25% we’d end up with huge revenue shortfalls. (Armey-Shelby plan was 17% but had huge revenue shortfalls)
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/articles/1998/summer_useconomics_gale/gale.pdf
I’m not against the idea of a flat tax, but it would have to account for a heck of a lot of things.
That is a whole lot less than what I currently pay, and I’m not rich.
With the numbers proposed, assuming you’re not rich, you would pay much more under a flat tax. That’s one of the major arguments against it: that it would be a regressive tax (i.e. the non-rich would pay more).
Think about it, the money has to come from somewhere, so if we’re taxing the rich less, we’d be taxing the non-rich more. Now if you want to cut the budget, that’s fair and good, but not what we’re discussing here.
In the 1986 amnesty, we were told 1 million would get a break, but it extended to 6 million. Now that we have at least 20 million here illegally, what should we expect this time around, 100 million?
What about all these people that would then have to contribute their fair share?
I do see a hurdle in the conversion process too. If I’ve already payed income tax on money and invested or saved it and you change systems, I get screwed.[/quote]
This is a decent point, it would probably cause the 20 mil or so to pay more… but I’m not sure that would make up for what we would lose.
It might also have the added benefit of de-incentivizing illegal immigrants.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Am I really supposed to give a shit about the person who hopped a fence to have their baby here on my medicaid dollar?
No, not all of us are christians/religious, so I can accept that you don’t care for those less fortunate than you.
If you want to help the less fortunate more than your tax dollars already do feel free to donate to charity. People like you complain that we spend to much money on foreign aid and war. Do a little research and see how much of a burden illegal immigrants are on this country both criminally and financially.
The jail I work for holds 500 inmates, we currently house over 150 illegal mexicans, a large majority of which are in for aggravated assault/sexual assault, robbery, burglary and possesion with the intent to distribute. At a cost of roughly 30,000 dollars a year to feed and clothe these people thats 4.5 million a year in tax payer dollars to house them.
Their children go to school, yet they pay no taxes. They receive medicaid, yet pay no taxes. They receive welfare and section 8, yet pay no taxes. Why don’t you do me a favor and not pay your taxes this year and let’s see if you’re afforded the same “help” they are.[/quote]
I do donate a substantial amount of my money (and time) to charity in addition to my taxes, thanks.
And I understand your point. As I said, this is America, I cannot expect you or others to care for the poor as a Christian would.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Am I really supposed to give a shit about the person who hopped a fence to have their baby here on my medicaid dollar?
No, not all of us are christians/religious, so I can accept that you don’t care for those less fortunate than you.
Why would you bring up religion? Trolling? I’ll retort.
Yeah, well I’m religious, so I have a soul.
Just pointing out the obvious. Us religious folk often feel it necessary to care about the less fortunate, regardless of where they were born or what they’ve done wrong. But I don’t expect or demand that others to have similar values.
There are also us religious folk who would prefer that the Federal government not be in the charity business. There are those Faux-religious people who think it is the governments job to be our god.
Your fake piousness is quite nauseating.
[/quote]
That’s cool RJ, but what does all this have to do with the above poster who said, “[quote]Am I really supposed to give a shit about the person who hopped a fence to have their baby here on my medicaid dollar?[/quote]” He doesn’t have to “give a shit” about poor people anywhere. I don’t expect him to have the same sort of religious values that Christians have, do you expect him to?
I have to agree here that the illegal immigrants are a serious financial burden on this country. Give to the needy and helping out those that are not willing to help themselves are two entirely different things. I shouldn’t have to support someone that came here the wrong way, but the government forces me to.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PB-Crawl wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well, they got ALL of the construction jobs during the housing boom.
I’d like to see some evidence backing this statement.
Go drive by a construction site.
No, you’re not allowed to believe what you see with your own lying eyes. [/quote]
Damn my blind eyes. I guess all those mexicans really are not mexicans.
[quote]FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PB-Crawl wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well, they got ALL of the construction jobs during the housing boom.
I’d like to see some evidence backing this statement.
Go drive by a construction site.
No, you’re not allowed to believe what you see with your own lying eyes.
Damn my blind eyes. I guess all those mexicans really are not mexicans. [/quote]
PC culture in America exists to attempt to perpetuate what’s naturally unworkable by covering up the obvious. It’s a luxury for those who have a lot of money, which is generally why it’s enforced by coastal elites, but more-or-less agreed to by everyone else. Now that the economy is receding, it will be interesting to see how long it exists.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PB-Crawl wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well, they got ALL of the construction jobs during the housing boom.
I’d like to see some evidence backing this statement.
Go drive by a construction site.
No, you’re not allowed to believe what you see with your own lying eyes.
Damn my blind eyes. I guess all those mexicans really are not mexicans.
PC culture in America exists to attempt to perpetuate what’s naturally unworkable by covering up the obvious. It’s a luxury for those who have a lot of money, which is generally why it’s enforced by coastal elites, but more-or-less agreed to by everyone else. Now that the economy is receding, it will be interesting to see how long it exists.
[/quote]
With the majority of the population voting for “trickle up” economics (Theoretically impossible?, it may exist for quite awhile.
Most people are not educated enough to understand economic theory behind buzzwords and bullshit.
[quote]FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PB-Crawl wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well, they got ALL of the construction jobs during the housing boom.
I’d like to see some evidence backing this statement.
Go drive by a construction site.
No, you’re not allowed to believe what you see with your own lying eyes.
Damn my blind eyes. I guess all those mexicans really are not mexicans. [/quote]
Many of them might be central and south american.
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
FormerlyTexasGuy wrote:
PB-Crawl wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well, they got ALL of the construction jobs during the housing boom.
I’d like to see some evidence backing this statement.
Go drive by a construction site.
No, you’re not allowed to believe what you see with your own lying eyes.
Damn my blind eyes. I guess all those mexicans really are not mexicans.
Many of them might be central and south american.
[/quote]
So they really are Americans, in the broad sense of the term.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Am I really supposed to give a shit about the person who hopped a fence to have their baby here on my medicaid dollar?
No, not all of us are christians/religious, so I can accept that you don’t care for those less fortunate than you.
If you want to help the less fortunate more than your tax dollars already do feel free to donate to charity. People like you complain that we spend to much money on foreign aid and war. Do a little research and see how much of a burden illegal immigrants are on this country both criminally and financially.
The jail I work for holds 500 inmates, we currently house over 150 illegal mexicans, a large majority of which are in for aggravated assault/sexual assault, robbery, burglary and possesion with the intent to distribute. At a cost of roughly 30,000 dollars a year to feed and clothe these people thats 4.5 million a year in tax payer dollars to house them.
Their children go to school, yet they pay no taxes. They receive medicaid, yet pay no taxes. They receive welfare and section 8, yet pay no taxes. Why don’t you do me a favor and not pay your taxes this year and let’s see if you’re afforded the same “help” they are.
I do donate a substantial amount of my money (and time) to charity in addition to my taxes, thanks.
And I understand your point. As I said, this is America, I cannot expect you or others to care for the poor as a Christian would. [/quote]
Stop bringing religion into this discussion. Christians believe that people must work to survive. Slothfullness is seen as a sin.
You cannot use only the facet of Christianity that you THINK supports your point.
How does risking so much to enter another country and work two jobs constitute slothfulness?
Christians care about the poor, nothing revolutionary in this line of thinking.
[quote]Standard Donkey wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Am I really supposed to give a shit about the person who hopped a fence to have their baby here on my medicaid dollar?
No, not all of us are christians/religious, so I can accept that you don’t care for those less fortunate than you.
If you want to help the less fortunate more than your tax dollars already do feel free to donate to charity. People like you complain that we spend to much money on foreign aid and war. Do a little research and see how much of a burden illegal immigrants are on this country both criminally and financially.
The jail I work for holds 500 inmates, we currently house over 150 illegal mexicans, a large majority of which are in for aggravated assault/sexual assault, robbery, burglary and possesion with the intent to distribute. At a cost of roughly 30,000 dollars a year to feed and clothe these people thats 4.5 million a year in tax payer dollars to house them.
Their children go to school, yet they pay no taxes. They receive medicaid, yet pay no taxes. They receive welfare and section 8, yet pay no taxes. Why don’t you do me a favor and not pay your taxes this year and let’s see if you’re afforded the same “help” they are.
I do donate a substantial amount of my money (and time) to charity in addition to my taxes, thanks.
And I understand your point. As I said, this is America, I cannot expect you or others to care for the poor as a Christian would.
Stop bringing religion into this discussion. Christians believe that people must work to survive. Slothfullness is seen as a sin.
You cannot use only the facet of Christianity that you THINK supports your point.[/quote]
As a matter of fact, Christianity doesn’t speak to civil government much beyond Romans 13 and Mark 12, which basically command obedience to the ruler, except in instances where obedience to the ruler would lead to sin. There is no prescribed method of government in the Bible, except in the parenthetical case of Israel, which Christians believe has expired in the person and work of Jesus. Jesus’ and the apostles’ various mandates to care for the poor applied to church government and function, which falls under the “sacred” sphere of influence. The secular sphere (civil government), is not governed according to the rules of the Christian church, but according to “the light of nature.”
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
How does risking so much to enter another country and work two jobs constitute slothfulness?
Christians care about the poor, nothing revolutionary in this line of thinking. [/quote]
Christianity expouses adherence to the law and disdain for those who break it, poor or otherwise.
The people who truly are poor are the ones who are incapable of improving their dispositions.
Edit: Risking everything to enter a country illegaly is not the slothful part.
It’s living off the hard workers who have their funds stolen from them by the wonderful government that constitutes slothfulness.
Christianity espouses adherence to the laws of God, not the laws of man. I don’t think God much cares if you cross a border without the proper papers.
Do you think many illegals are risking everything to enter this country and then be slothfull? That’s certainly not what I have seen, although some certainly may be doing so. As others on this thread have pointed out, they seem to be working quite hard.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Christianity espouses adherence to the laws of God, not the laws of man. I don’t think God much cares if you cross a border without the proper papers.
Do you think many illegals are risking everything to enter this country and then be slothfull? That’s certainly not what I have seen, although some certainly may be doing so. As others on this thread have pointed out, they seem to be working quite hard. [/quote]
Many if not most evade taxes - thievery
Many assault actual citizens sexually and otherwise and are able to avoid incarceration by remaining off the grid. - Sin
I would find it hard to believe that people have problems with hard-working tax paying immigrants. I certainly don’t.
But the point stands, you cannot pull religion into this discussion and maintain any level of argumentative legitimacy.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Christianity espouses adherence to the laws of God, not the laws of man. I don’t think God much cares if you cross a border without the proper papers.
Do you think many illegals are risking everything to enter this country and then be slothfull? That’s certainly not what I have seen, although some certainly may be doing so. As others on this thread have pointed out, they seem to be working quite hard. [/quote]
Working quite hard while leeching off of social entitlements they are not paying in to. Who cares how hard they are working if they are not contributing to “trickle up economics”. If the tax dollar makes the country run they aren’t paying a dime when they get an envelope of cash at the end of the day.
On top of banking straight cash they get taxpayer funded medical care, housing and welfare. Let’s not count how many end up with a SSN that is not theirs and the legal citizens life they just ruined.
[quote]Standard Donkey wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
Christianity espouses adherence to the laws of God, not the laws of man. I don’t think God much cares if you cross a border without the proper papers.
Do you think many illegals are risking everything to enter this country and then be slothfull? That’s certainly not what I have seen, although some certainly may be doing so. As others on this thread have pointed out, they seem to be working quite hard.
Many if not most evade taxes - thievery
[/quote]
Only if you are an orthodox Jew, otherwise that is debatable.
And has been debated the last 2000 years or so.
[quote]Standard Donkey wrote:
But the point stands, you cannot pull religion into this discussion and maintain any level of argumentative legitimacy.[/quote]
Sorry, I thought T-Nation PWI was a place where one could openly speak of their religious convictions, I certainly know many have in other threads.
For Christians, caring for the poor is a direct call from God. Many of these immigrants, both legal and illegal, are quite poor.
If you don’t like to talk about religion, please feel free to excuse yourself from the conversation or ignore that part of the conversation. A poster said something akin to “why would I care about them,” the simple reply was, “You’re an america, so you don’t have to follow any particular beliefs.” Christians are obligated to care simply because they are poor. If you’re not a Christian, there’s really no reason to complain about my post. I was simply saying that I respect your alternative lifestyle.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Standard Donkey wrote:
But the point stands, you cannot pull religion into this discussion and maintain any level of argumentative legitimacy.
Sorry, I thought T-Nation PWI was a place where one could openly speak of their religious convictions, I certainly know many have in other threads.
For Christians, caring for the poor is a direct call from God. Many of these immigrants, both legal and illegal, are quite poor.
If you don’t like to talk about religion, please feel free to excuse yourself from the conversation or ignore that part of the conversation. A poster said something akin to “why would I care about them,” the simple reply was, “You’re an america, so you don’t have to follow any particular beliefs.” Christians are obligated to care simply because they are poor. If you’re not a Christian, there’s really no reason to complain about my post. I was simply saying that I respect your alternative lifestyle. [/quote]
Pardon me, but I am a Christian. It is for that reason that I find your ignorance disturbing.