US Prison Abuse Abroad

[quote]Cream wrote:
100meters wrote:
And abusing people isn’t a joke, it something most americans take pretty seriously, just not you.

How would you know? So far, in one billion posts, you’ve never held any positions that “most Americans”, “many Americans”, or even “a small minority of Americans” would agree with.[/quote]

Uhh- that would be factually incorrect-see recent polls (you do have access to the web, newspapers, no?), a majority do share the very same views, apology accepted in advance!

lumpy wrote:

“Uhh- that would be factually incorrect-see recent polls (you do have access to the web, newspapers, no?), a majority do share the very same views, apology accepted in advance!”

News flash: Polls mean next to nothing.

Wait, every two years we have polls that do matter. It’s the ballot box that matters.

Cream’s post holds.

Thanks,

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Good thread.

You guys who advocate a tough stance on terrorism, are going to get a ton of resistance from the left.

Remember: If we just threw money/love at the problem it would go away.

Remember: If we just minded our own business—Poof!!! No more war.

Hey lumpy, are the terrorists more of a threat to world peace than the Administration.

Be sure to include a yes or no in your answer.

Thanks!!!

JeffR[/quote]

Well, dems don’t see Bush’s soft stance on terror as beneficial. We WANT a strong war on TERROR. (As you know Iraq is now a huge training ground for terrorist and will be for years to come. As you know our techniques used at Gitmo, Abu ghraib recruit terrorists, as you know Bush said hunt them down, but how many years to capture OBL?, As you know we still haven’t implemented all of the 9/11 commissions recommendations, and was against investigating 9/11 in the first place (ha!), and of course I know you know that terrorism is way,way,way up around the world!)
Tough stance! Not from this admin! Remember some of us were voting for a “smarter, more effective, war on terror”
That’s not to say it would have been done, any more than Bush’s “no nation building”, but it is something I want so desperately.

as for your question, of course yes.

Knuckles, read my post before you reply please? You ended up looking like a 'tard when you vcould easily have made a decent contribution.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
A few real good, close friends that are Counter Intelligence Interrogators who were part of “Iraqi Freedom” have this to say: “Torture does not work”! The point of intelligence is to gain trust from the enemy. This cannot be done when the enemy is in fear of his life. This is straight from the field manual. However the line does sometimes become blurred on what is considered acceptable. I’m sure if you ask them what techniques are considered acceptable they’d laugh in your face as thay have mine.[/quote]

Yeah, I read the Army Manual Interrogation Techniques section too. If that was true in every case, then why, oh why are they “abusing” them?? Believe me, in dealing with psychotic assholes like the ones we’re dealing with now, trust cannot be gained from scum-of-the-earth, condemned, infidels like us. Do you really think they’ll be that quick to strike a deal with us after knowing what they think of us? I’m sorry, but on this shitty ball of dirt we call earth, tickling them with a feather just ain’t gonna cut it. RLTW

rangertab75

For informational purposes I’d like to share a POW’s view of the “American Gulag.”

Jerry Coffee was a POW for several years at the Hanoi Hilton. He writes a weekly
article for a little MidWeek newspaper that is delivered free to all residents
of Oahu. Coffee now travels the world as a motivational speaker.

SO YOU THINK GITMO IS A GULAG?
by Jerry Coffee

"On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the

temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking
with cold. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot,
but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since
the day before"----Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Illinois,
June 15, criticizing detainee treatment at Guantanamo Bay

Senator Durbin likened the American guards at Guantanamo to "Nazis, Soviets

in their gulags, or some mad regime of Pol Pot or others."

I was held in one of those prisons in North Vietnam for seven years.  The

following is an excerpt from my book, Beyond Survival, and bears upon the so
called “torture” of the Muslim Jihadists at Guantanamo:
I had just been put before a firing squad for giving only my name, rank,
serial number and date of birth to an interrogator in the countryside soon after
my capture. The firing squad had been a bluff.
“So you think we are through with you!” The officer in charge barked an
order to the guards who untied my arms from behind the tree. The release of the
pressure on my broken arm was almost as excruciating as its application. They
shoved me back across the dirt courtyard to the edge of a drainage ditch. One
of the guards, with his rifle butt between my shoulder blades, forced me down to
my knees and finally flat on my face in the dirt. They tied a rope around my
upper arms very tightly until it cut off the circulation. Then with his foot
behind my neck he cinched by upper arms together behind me. The strain and pain
on my shoulders and injured arm was unbelievable. I could feel the cartilage
pop in my sternum and shoulders. Then they threw the remaining length of rope
over the limb of a close by tree and hoisted me up taut against the trunk of the
tree, my toes barely able to absorb the weight of my body. The officer jutted
his face close to mine: “We will see! We
will see”.
My left arm began to throb and hurt as much as my broken arm. The pain
came coursing through my arms wave after wave. The muscles in my thighs and
calves burned as I strained to be on my tip toes. After 20 minutes or so my
mind became so enmeshed with the pain I was aware of nothing else. From
somewhere came the guttural sounds of a wounded animal, grunts and sobs. It was
me.
The two guards returned with renewed determination, ready to begin the
real fun and games. The tree was on the slope of the ditch and I was on the
uphill side. But now they began pushing me around the tree to the downhill side
where my feet were completely off the ground. I cried out! I cursed and I
yelled and I kicked at them. One of them retrieved the filthy rag that had been
my blindfold during the firing squad charade and began stuffing it in my mouth
as a gag. With the rag only halfway in, he used the barrel of his rifle to
shove it all the way. I was aware of the crack and sting as he broke off one of
my front teeth.
My cries and curses were but growls and gurgles lost in the wad of
cloth. As I kicked at them they simply used the momentum of my thrusts to swing
me in a circle to the downhill side of the tree. I was a tether ball for their
sadistic game. My thoughts were so fragmented: pain…code of conduct…what
type of aircraft?..what aircraft carrier?..pain…
and more pain! “Oh, God, please help me to do what I need to do here. Make me
strong. Help me through this, Lord. Please!”
They kept playing with me, laughing, taunting. The bastards were
enjoying this. I was soaked with sweat, my arms below the knotted rope were on
fire. My shoulders seemed to be coming apart, and time stood still: their
faces, the canopy leaves of the tree over the courtyard, the huts of the hamlet,
the sweep of the rice paddies as I swung across the downhill arc of the
tree-----all just a swirling manifestation of my pain.
Suddenly, with a spike of agony the swinging was arrested and I was
staring into the contorted face of my inquisitor as if through a vermillion lens
of pain. He picked gingerly at the rag in my mouth, unraveled it and dropped it
to the ground.
“Well?” he said. His eyes narrowed. I was shaking my head “No, no!” as
I heard a reluctant, raspy voice whisper, “RA-5C. USS Kitty Hawk.” The voice
was my own.
That night as I lay in the dark on a pile of musty straw I came to the
sobering realization that Lt. Jerry Coffee, professional warrior, had let go of
his preconceptions of victory and defeat, and that in my confusion and shame it
hadn’t even occurred to me that I had just been brutally tortured. And thank
God, at that point, I didn’t know there would be much more to come.

At Guantanamo, the prisoners (who would slit our throats if given the

chance) have air conditioning, flushing toilets, copies of the Koran in 13
different languages, three “Proper Muslim-approved” meals a day, Red Cross
observers, soccer balls, five prayer times a day, complete medical care and
clean surroundings.

Senator Durbin, are you serious? 

 For me and my fellow American POWs who spent many long years in a filthy

hell hole—
often in solitary — a thin broth twice a day as meals, a bucket for a toilet
and brutal torture, Guantanamo is the Ritz Carlton.

These kind of people put posts on because they dont know better, they see whats on the media or on the net and want a reaction because they lack any initiative to think for themselves. Not to mention it doesnt help that gullick is from england his opinions are that thrives in his coutry (anti-bush,anti-american,anti-war) I guess the train bombing didnt wake you up, because those indivduals that caused that incident are same ones being detained in gitmo and abu-g prison. Anyone is welcome to there opinion and that is what makes this country great, i respect that.

But don’t judge or criticize another man/woman putting the rounds down range and making sure that the scum of the earth is being held to justice. The only abuse I see is when the media foreign/domestic slams my country.

This country was founded on the blanket of freedom,the right to keep and bear arms,and to beleive in god. The people that fought for these rights 225 years ago where a mere 10%. I know the same goes for today.
A US Marine signing out.

I think the big issue for most people around the abuse of prisoners by Americans is that we assume we sit on the high ground and are therefore unassailable or accountable for our behavior. How can we have the gall to condemn other countries for what they do if we are willing to get nasty ourselves? It makes us hypocrites and it lowers us as a people to the level of the savages we claim to be fighting against.

This possibly is not the best thread to post this into, but it’s certainly relevant to it…

http://amconmag.com/2005_07_18/print/articleprint.html
and
http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/notes/s1415002.htm

US Associate Professor Robert Pape of the University of Chicago:
“Over the past two years, I have collected the first complete database of every suicide-terrorist attack around the world from 1980 to early 2004”

“The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign?over 95 percent of all the incidents?has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw.”

I think our collective governments need to rethink their strategic plans. Coz their current ones just are’nt working too well.

WMD wrote: It makes us hypocrites and it lowers us as a people to the level of the savages we claim to be fighting against.

Gee WMD i dont see any americans beheading people on video, or flying planes into buildings. Dont even compare the so called prison abuse to the beheadings or anything you see on al-jazeera. What happened at abu-g was a mistake and everyone was accoutnable and held under disciplinary actions under the UCMJ. I don’t see any “high ground” or throne.

Since your name is "WMD" that means "Weapons of Mass Destruction". Was'nt that the stuff Saddam used to slaughter 100,000's of kurds and what he treatened time and time again on israel. Oh yeah the same stuff he pulled before and after he invaded kuwait, no one was complaining when we invaded kuwait and freed them. 

WMD: go to yahoo and find

  1. The kurdish massacre and research everything analyze as many pictures as you can. Find the ones also when they were exposed to serin gas
  2. Find the out how dangerous VX and Serin are.
  3. If it is in the wrong hands your in a world of S^@T.

ShaunW that is a very compelling and accurate report.
Who knows what drives them to do such satanic things. I believe its ignorance and the use “allah” as a crutch.
Remember not all of iraq is a mess. The islamic extremists are in clusters

  1. Iraq is in shambles and slowly needs to be rebuild, there trying to rebuild a government
  2. While this process is being built the Marines and Soldiers are taking out the extremists. The extremists know there is know government but the funny thing is that there really is no motive to there poor fighting except for terrorizing, because that is what terrorists do. I don’t see any democratic state of withdrawl. BTW know one said it was going to be easy this is a country that has been captive by a dictator for many years. The thing is all the countries in the middle are being held against there will. Iraq just was stupid enough to f#*! with us

[quote]WMD wrote:
I think the big issue for most people around the abuse of prisoners by Americans is that we assume we sit on the high ground and are therefore unassailable or accountable for our behavior. How can we have the gall to condemn other countries for what they do if we are willing to get nasty ourselves? It makes us hypocrites and it lowers us as a people to the level of the savages we claim to be fighting against.[/quote]

First off, against an enemy that beheads civilian non-combatants we do “sit on the high ground”. By any reasonable standard of decency we are more humane than our opponents.

We can have the gall to condemn other countries because on the whole we treat our prisoners much better than our opponents. Of course, in the instance of the Iraqi war we are not condemning another nation but a bunch of thugs who send suicide bombers into crowds of Muslim children in the off chance they might kill an American GI.

This is all very obvious to everyone. Those folks that choose to ignore, or much worse justify it, are ethically bereft.

P.S.–This does not excuse the behavior of any American military member that orders or executes orders antithetical to treaties signed by the United States. For those that transgress, they should pay.

From what Pape is suggesting we should just leave Iraq. I’m certain that all those terrorists (who are mainly non-Iraqis) have great plans and means of turning Iraq into a rebuilt thriving land. Yeah right. If our strategy of “offshore balancing” worked so well…why did 9/11 happen? Besides isn’t Bin Laden from Saudi? So Iraq isn’t really his turf. Pardon me if I’m just blind but in what way have we divided Iraq into three separate “colonies”?

Besides, appeasement?! Um, that doesn’t really work, ever heard of a little thing called WW2?! It’s also interesting that if they are defending their land from the “zionist invaders” (hm, zionist, that’s like calling us “Christian invaders,” so religion does matter), why do they destroy their land and their people? Kinda counter-productive but that’s just me. Besides if they ever opened a history book they would find that the countries we have “conquered” have always gotten their independence back AND have a much, much better economic system than before (especially Japan).

In conclusion, these guys respect one thing…force of arms. They have no respect for us, Bin Laden called our troops “paper tigers,” well he sure got a hell of a papercut. I say blow’em all to their 77 virgins (can you imagine actually living for eternity with that many women, one’s enough). Besides in the end, whose gonna get the chicks the woman-hating greasy, smelly terrorist or G.I. “Stud” Joe Marine/Ranger…That’s just too obvious.

Nu-naiy, what a majority of people don’t realize is the only way to deal with these assholes is to show force. I’m trying to sound ethically morale as i can but in laymens terms “waste the fuckers”

Leaving iraq would be wrong. The greatest gift I have is knowing everyday when i wake up that i'm a Marine. I served in the grunts and was medically retired. Any Marine knows that two most important things are 1. mission accomplishment 2.troop welfare.

I want the legacy of the United States Marine Corps to carry on, meaning that the sacrifices that are made are honored meaning that we complete the tasks the were handed to us by honorable president Bush.

HOORAH, Semper Fi.

[quote]BigRJ wrote:
ShaunW that is a very compelling and accurate report.
Who knows what drives them to do such satanic things. I believe its ignorance and the use “allah” as a crutch.
Remember not all of iraq is a mess. The islamic extremists are in clusters

  1. Iraq is in shambles and slowly needs to be rebuild, there trying to rebuild a government
  2. While this process is being built the Marines and Soldiers are taking out the extremists. The extremists know there is know government but the funny thing is that there really is no motive to there poor fighting except for terrorizing, because that is what terrorists do. I don’t see any democratic state of withdrawl. BTW know one said it was going to be easy this is a country that has been captive by a dictator for many years. The thing is all the countries in the middle are being held against there will. Iraq just was stupid enough to f#*! with us
    [/quote]

Actually, The Bush whitehouse said it would be easy, cheyney saying a few weeks, Rummy saying not 6 months, you know the whole lying thing…

[quote]Nu-Naiy wrote:
From what Pape is suggesting we should just leave Iraq. I’m certain that all those terrorists (who are mainly non-Iraqis) have great plans and means of turning Iraq into a rebuilt thriving land. Yeah right. If our strategy of “offshore balancing” worked so well…why did 9/11 happen? Besides isn’t Bin Laden from Saudi? So Iraq isn’t really his turf. Pardon me if I’m just blind but in what way have we divided Iraq into three separate “colonies”?
[/quote]
Wow. Ok. Bin Laden has already made it clear that 9/11 and other attacks happened because of U.S. occupation of muslim holy lands. It’s U.S. policy that causes the attacks not hatred of Americans as has been repeatedly shown. So you can see why studies are showing the war in Iraq is drawing extremists there, Why muslims resent muslim prisoners being attacked religiously in our prison’s, and why terror attacks have gone way, way, way,way up since oh 2000 (going down prior to that–wierd that date…).

More interesting is our president using the word crusade (where do these muslims get the idea of us being christian invaders!) Oh also we used huge forces to occupy germany, japan. Bush decided to follow god’s advice(small force) instead of his military’s advice of huge forces, and it’s costing us big right now.(Why does God lie to Bush?)

[quote]

In conclusion, these guys respect one thing…force of arms. They have no respect for us, Bin Laden called our troops “paper tigers,” well he sure got a hell of a papercut. I say blow’em all to their 77 virgins (can you imagine actually living for eternity with that many women, one’s enough). Besides in the end, whose gonna get the chicks the woman-hating greasy, smelly terrorist or G.I. “Stud” Joe Marine/Ranger…That’s just too obvious.[/quote]

Your technique has led to dramatic increases in terror, I’d like it to go down.

In what way have we occupied muslim holy land? Before Iraq. Besides what right do they have to be pissed, their Dome of the Rock lies on Jewish (and therefore Christian) holy ground. But where oh where are those christian/jewish terrorists?? Ok, 9/11 happened before any of the prison stuff so that can’t be a reason.

Actually the small force idea was Rumsfield’s idea. I have to say that I think Rumsfield is responsible for most of the problems we have (Operation Anaconda anyone). And atleast Bush’s god tells him to help people even at great sacrifice instead of telling him to blow’em up. So your suggesting we send more troops to Iraq and show more force. I like your thinking. I believe Bush used the term “crusade” in the " A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse" form. It’s the terrorist’s interpretation that’s to fault.

As to the idea of Iraq being easy, I agree with you that we went in unprepared. I believe the Iraq war to be a just war. But that doesn’t mean that commanders, at all levels, made mistakes. The mistake we make mostly is thinking people won’t dare fight us. They will. We are able to easily deal with these forces only if senior commanders make worst-case contingency plans. Iraq isn’t lost but it will take sacrifice and time.

So if you want peace, get out from behind your fat-free, soy latte, and prepare for war. Freedom is deserved only by those who are willing to fight and die for it.

Ok, so I love quotes and these guys have just a bit more credibility than I, and are better with words.

The world needs anger. The world often continues to allow evil because it isn’t angry enough. Bede Jarrett

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility. John Arbuthnot Fisher

No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation. Douglas MacArthur

Part of the American dream is to live long and die young. Only those Americans who are willing to die for their country are fit to live. Douglas Macarthur

“It is better to live one day as a lion than a hundred years as a sheep.”

  • Italian proverb

“When cities burn and armies turn and flee in disarray, cowards will cry: ‘Tis best to fly, and fight another day’. But warriors know in their marrow, When they die and fall, ‘tis best to have fought and lost than not to have fought at all.’”

  • Unknown

“I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to
succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have. I must stand with
anybody that stands right, stand with him while he is right, and part with
him when he goes wrong.”

  • Abraham Lincoln

“Our Country won’t go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won’t
be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our
women and breed a hardier race!”
-Lt. Gen. Lewis B. “Chesty” Puller, USMC

“When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the
scabbard.”

  • General Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson

100 meters show me concrete evidence of all your allegations. You obviously have know idea what kind of enemies whe’re dealing with. Dont compare the invasion of berlin and okinawa (end of ww2) to modern combat. You obvioulsy know nothing on modern warfighting and tactics. BTW back in 1942 america united as a whole,no anti-this anti-that shit. Japan attacked us, we retaliated kicked the shit out of the axis of evil.