US Government Over-Reach And E-Cigs

[chaoshander]

@pfury

My question is, in the new age of vaping, what’s the allure of cigarettes other than “I’m already addicted to them” over vaping?

Honestly, as awesome of an alternative as it is, it just isnt the same thing. The flavors make it arguably more enjoyable, but they dont feel like a cigarette. Once you start taking someone who smoked for 30 years, they need every advantage they can get.

@pfury

All of this doesn’t seem to be effected by eliminating flavored vapes.

This just circles back around to the flavors making it easier. It’s not something I’d expect someone who doesnt use or need to use, understand. Yes. Having unflavored is better than nothing. But I think the success rate would drop off a cliff.

@pfury

Plus I genuinely think I should have the ability to respond with force when someone blows a fucking cloud in my face, so I’m already not fond of those people. I 100% believe it should be something I can exercise limited self defense over.

Honestly i agree with you here. Regardless if its cigarettes or whatever else, hell even just blowing air in my face is fucking annoying. This is unfortunately a subsidiary of the culture. A definitive group, but not all. From someone who vapes, you’re right in this department. I’ve always inhaled and blown directly downwards, just so I’m not being a cunt about it.

@pfury

Making people more inclined to smoke for the fuck of it doesn’t really give flavored a bonus in my mind, when that culture is hitting my generation and younger ones pretty hard.

Eh, this comes back to, how many of these kids or otherwise younger people would have just picked up smoking cigs? My town has implemented drivers license scanners, and fairly stern age policies, and yeah, you certainly shouldnt sell to minors, and you certainly shouldnt market to them, but if they want to put something in their lungs, they’ll find a way. Also shitty parenting isnt on our side here.

@pfury

Another question I have is whether or not they’re going to be banning the liquid that would enable people to make their own flavored vapes.

Good question. I dont think they can.

Propylene Glycol
Vegetable Glycerin
Nicotine
Flavoring

The only questionable substance is nicotine, which, to be completely unbiased, is EXTREMELY dangerous when concentrated. It burns like fire. The two main compounds you can buy at a pharmacy and have many greater needs than just ecigs. Which means they just wont go away. As far as flavoring, it just takes a bit ingenuity.

My big concern here is, while current proposed regulations are bullshit, regulation in general is important. All of the flavoring is harmless in theory, but without extensive testing there is no telling what happens to those compounds when super heated into a gas. The DIY people will be playing a big risk in this department.

@pfury

But are we to expect that current vapers, who have already sank the investment money to get going with their rigs, are going to GO BACK to a more expensive, less appealing option, just because flavored gets banned?

Honestly, yeah. Its remarkable how many people relapse simply because their supplier runs out of their one flavor. The mind of an addict is very fragile, even on a small scale such as nicotine.

@pfury

I live and work in Ohio within reasonable driving distance of the border. I’ve met very few Michiganders who disagree with the flavored ban. Even the Ohio people in the area have been pushing my metro to join suit.

This is beyond wild to me honestly. NC, as bible thumping ass backwards as we are, still have a fairly positive relationship with vaping. It’s honestly weird to see a cigarette at this point. Totally different societal norms I guess.

@pfury

All it takes is a few videos cherry picking a couple of the tens of thousands of underage kids who started vaping because it was cool, and suddenly everyone has flashbacks to the retardation of some obscure 2packaday relative that died sounding like a swamp monster at the age of 60.

This is what I’m afraid of. People dont like change, doubly so when they’re older. They see this new product and it’s probably very reminiscent of the positive spin tobacco companies managed to put on it before all their friends died from lung and heart complications. Not taking into account all of the positives.

Let’s just humor the occupying forces here.

Let’s say ecigs outright killed 6 people
(Which is common knowledge it was black market THC and Vitamin E compounds that caused the health complications)

But let’s just say it was ecigs. 6 people over 10 years directly attributed to something ecigs applied to their lungs and bloodstream.

That’s still a whole metric fuckload better than 388,000 people a year.

Its on a totally different playing field.

It’s “new science” things happen.

There were some malfunctions in hardware, a few people got hurt. (Not killed)

Some kids were ignorant to ohms law and caused some user error malfunctions that caused a few more injuries.

People were reintroduced to diacetyl, which RAN THE RISK of causing popcorn lung (I think only 1 true reported case ever actually happened) which was immediately banned by the FDA. (Fun fact, popcorn lung was devastating when it initially occurred, simply because they didnt know how to combat it, now it’s about an hour in the hospital, minor financial burden, and you’re back at work that same day) regardless, still banned.

It increases your chance of pneumonia because it’s a liquid in your lungs. If you are prone to pneumonia, you cant vape.

So were talking a few hundred people negatively impacted, not killed mind you, just had a dip in quality if life for a while, during the most unstable part of the entire new industry, that at the time, was completely unregulated…

Just a bit of extra info on the subject matter.

[pfury]

@chaoshander

Once you start taking someone who smoked for 30 years, they need every advantage they can get.

This is gonna sound cynical, but the guys who’ve smoked for 30 years are cooked turkeys. Switching to vaping at that point, while cute, can’t really influence things like policy decisions.

@chaoshander

Yes. Having unflavored is better than nothing. But I think the success rate would drop off a cliff.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but pre mass flavoring craze, the success rate was so insanely high if applied correctly that it CAUSED the investment in the flavoring craze.

Demand definitely drove that entire industry. It was climbing at insane rates pre mass flavoring.

@chaoshander

how many of these kids or otherwise younger people would have just picked up smoking cigs?

I’d argue very few. I grew up in the generation where we started to think of people who smoked cigarettes as fucking losers. Public shaming was pretty widespread, comments on teeth, smell, etc. Cigarettes were on the decline for years and years.

Adolescent Health

@chaoshander

NC, as bible thumping ass backwards as we are, still have a fairly positive relationship with vaping

NC is much more of a ‘if the govt moves a finger it’s wrong’ kinda state. Michigan is mostly blue collar workers. With the recent (and ongoing) Flint water problem. Fucking with kid health, per the super easy campaigns against flavored vaping, was a slam dunk.

@chaoshander

Let’s say ecigs outright killed 6 people

This isn’t the public issue. It’s the appeal to minors who aren’t quitting cigarettes, and the “unintentional” mass marketing and pushing towards kids. The tobacco industry is known for this stuff.

@chaoshander

Just a bit of extra info on the subject matter.

Oh I know. But you’re talking about the general populace. Once they started down the road towards kids, something was going to give.

[pat]

Wow, I see long posts and tightly crafted arguments. The answer is simple, hell no.

[zecarlo]

Your answer is looking for a question.

[chaoshander]

@pfury

the guys who’ve smoked for 30 years are cooked turkeys

No, you’re right. Those lungs are a new shade of black, and honestly the amount of tar build up wouldn’t even be worth coughing up, it would probably kill them. I suppose 30 years was a bit extreme, but the point being, people who have smoked a long time.

@pfury

pre mass flavoring craze

This I dont have any info on. there was no “pre flavor” craze here. A vape shop popped open, and there was Tribecca, RY-4, and Space Jam on the shelves. (Tobaccos and fruity shit) so I’m sure that may have applied elsewhere, but not here, and I’d argue Wilmington very high on the scale of alternative success.

@pfury

I grew up in the generation where we started to think of people who smoked cigarettes as fucking losers.

That’s interesting. It wasnt really good or bad in my school. Some people smoked, some didnt, then there were the dudes that dipped and spit in the corners of the electrical trades room. It wasnt really talked about one way or another. However my high school was fairly small, graduating class was only like 120 people, so my sample size isnt very large.

@pfury

‘if the govt moves a finger it’s wrong’

You’re goddamn right. But seriously, you’re right, I can see the split in thought process here.

@pfury

It’s the appeal to minors

Honestly, by this logic, peach vodka should be up on the podium with vaping. I get “watermelon palooza” maybe comes off a bit immature as far as names go. However, i dont think it’s any different than flavored alcohol. Which, if you also stand against that, that’s great, but the point is focused towards selecting ecigs over other issues simply because of a lack of research.

[pfury]

@chaoshander

This I dont have any info on. there was no “pre flavor” craze here.

Logically, the ability ween yourself off nicotine little by little should hold up with everyone as an effective strategy, regardless of if they knew it was going on pre fruit loops.

But interesting that some parts didn’t really see vaping until the flavoring kicked in.

@chaoshander

Honestly, by this logic, peach vodka should be up on the podium with vaping.

Nah not by a country mile. Deep down alcohol tastes like ass. Peach ass still tastes like ass, it’s just got a peach hint.

@chaoshander

However, i dont think it’s any different than flavored alcohol. Which, if you also stand against that, that’s great, but the point is focused towards selecting ecigs over other issues simply because of a lack of research.

I think it’s because, for years, underage drinking has been on the decline.

Not quite as big of a decline as cigarettes, who are for fucking losers, but still a downward trend. We see the opposite trend (in spades) with vaping and underage kids. I think overall tobacco is still trending down with kids, but only because cigarettes are tanking.

[SkyzykS]

I didn’t get any effect from the older vaping liquids. For what ever reason, they simply did not work, so after trying several iterations of devices, I had continued smoking. I think it has something to do with the nicotine being unavailable for uptake. The juul, or nicotine salt formula on the other hand, works very well. I didn’t much care for the flavors at all. They were way too strong in my opinion. I just wanted something that works.

I’ve been using one of those for a while and my heart rate during exercise is going down while my work load is going up.

I think that the government sword rattling is part constituent appeasement and part shakedown. There are billions of dollars flying around the vaping industry and the gubmint just wants theirs. Last time I checked, Juul was a privately owned company who’s value went from start-up/nothing to a billion something virtually over night.

[zecarlo]

@SkyzykS

There are billions of dollars flying around the vaping industry

It’s amazing what people will throw away their money on.

[josephwhite]

as far as i dont have to smell it, im okay with pretty much anything. not that i dont like smokers personally, but man, i cant stand the smoke

[mnben87]

@chaoshander

However, i dont think it’s any different than flavored alcohol.

Agreed. The fact that adults also like blue raspberry vape is enough to show that they are not purely marketing to children.

I also would say that it sure does seem safer than traditional tobacco. I think a handful of deaths is nothing compared to just the deaths from one brand of cigarettes in one county.

[flipcollar]

@mnben87

I also would say that it sure does seem safer than traditional tobacco.

hard to say, because…

@mnben87

I think a handful of deaths is nothing compared to just the deaths from one brand of cigarettes in one county.

those deaths have taken time. Much more time than e cigs have been on the market. So it’s largely unknown if e cigs are legitimately safer. The ‘evidence’ against regular cigarettes didn’t lead to regulation for a loooooong long time, and the arguments against regulating them were basically the same as what we’re seeing today with vaping. No tangible difference. In this instance, I’d much rather see e cigs classified essentially the same as conventional cigarettes, and if years down the line the evidence tells us they truly are safer, then we change it. I’d prefer that to the alternative.

I think banning them completely is stupid though. And I think the marketing stuff with flavors is just fine.

[polo77j]

@mnben87

I also would say that it sure does seem safer than traditional tobacco.

8 PEOPLE HAVE DIED!!

[mnben87]

I did not detail all the evidence supporting e-cig being safer than traditional tobacco. I am not an expert, but I think there is a big difference in lung health between the two. I have seen pictures comparing them.

[chaoshander]

All we have are the facts. 8 deaths, all DIRECTLY contributed to one common cause: Vitamin E Acetate used as a cheap ingredient when mixing THC and the 2 main ingredients for ejuice on the black market. E is non-water soluble, therefore, once its in your lungs, it cant go anywhere. It’s called lipid pneumonia. Your lungs are full of a liquid they cant get rid of.

I’m not trying to say ecigs are healthy. In a perfect world not smoking anything is ideal, however, that currently isnt the case. There is irrefutable evidence showing that the standard ecig formula is a healthier alternative.

We dont know what will happen in the next 100 years, there isnt enough evidence. However the argument of the cigarette industry going through the same growing pains isnt a great comparison. Medical Practice was also in its growing stages. We didnt know fuck-all compared to now. So there isnt a great way to say “people didnt know of the health risks for cigarettes for a long time either” because the medical industry sucked ass in the 50’s 60’s and 70’s, at least comparatively.

It’s just insane that in many other countries it is posted as simply the healthier alternative to cigarettes. However, as of the time I was in the industry (4 years ago?) I was legally bound at “it’s an alternative” including the terms “better, healthier, or safer” netted jail time, massive fines for me, as well as the company.

Yes, I’m personally bitter. But this isnt the argument really. The argument is the insanely swift action taken upon a multi-billion dollar industry for something that was chemically explainable, that came from the black market.

On heroin? Here’s some clean needles.

Alcoholic? Were not removing the booze, but go to AA.

Overdose? No, we wont fine you, just get clean.

Black Market THC oil killed 8 people? SHUT DOWN THE WHOLE GHATDAM INDUSTRY.

They SHOULD crack down on the THC cartridges. You know… the thing killing people… but they’re misguided and shutting down the industry that has saved literally 100,000’s of lives. Now they’re too damn stubborn to back down now that the truth is out.

[mnben87]

@chaoshander

Black Market THC oil killed 8 people? SHUT DOWN THE WHOLE GHATDAM INDUSTRY.

They SHOULD crack down on the THC cartridges. You know… the thing killing people… but they’re misguided and shutting down the industry that has saved literally 100,000’s of lives. Now they’re too damn stubborn to back down now that the truth is out.

I agree with this, but I think shutting down black market operations is harder done than said. Maybe legalize THC at a federal level? I would think that would go farther to reduce black market cartridges, than prohibition?

[pfury]

@mnben87

Maybe legalize THC at a federal level? I would think that would go farther to reduce black market cartridges, than prohibition?

This. Absolutely fuckin nobody wants black market thc carts. Allow them to be bought legally and the black market can’t compete with the quality.

The single biggest issue with thc carts is I have to ‘get them from a guy who got them from a guy.’ Regulate quality at the getgo and give access. Problem nuked.

[polo77j]

@mnben87

Maybe legalize THC at a federal level? I would think that would go farther to reduce black market cartridges, than prohibition?

The issue I see in my state (MA) is that even when they legalize it, the state/governing body taxes the shit out of it and STILL constrains competitive forces to the point the black market still thrives, has better products, and offers better services, thus is more desirable to the demand market, than the ‘legal’ alternative. If GOV would be reasonable and let the free market mechanism work (with reasonable regulations in place - i.e. what’s in place now are unreasonable barriers to entry which invites graft wrt politicians - just google Jasiel Correria mayor of Fall River and you’ll see what I mean).

@pfury

Absolutely fuckin nobody wants black market thc carts.

this is a boo boo statement. Clearly people do if they’re buying them … more likely for the reasons I stated above. Regulated/legal shops can not compete with the barriers to entry/restrictions to the market that are in place to the point where the alternative is desirable to most people. As it stands, a lot of the regulations in place seem unreasonable to the consumer…

[pfury]

@polo77j

this is a boo boo statement. Clearly people do if they’re buying them

As someone who has bought black market carts, people aren’t aware that’s what they’re buying. All of the major brands can have their specific carts bought in bulk from China for literally less than 1 cent per emtpy cart average.

@polo77j

Regulated/legal shops can not compete with the barriers to entry/restrictions to the market that are in place to the point where the alternative is desirable to most people

This does not jive with basic reality from anyone that isn’t reading about it on the internet.

Not knocking you. Promise.

Black market carts exist because they can so easily be faked and passed off as dispensary level carts. Give the consumer the ability to buy them from a store instead of their cousin Ed who SWEARS they’re legit and fakes die.

[flipcollar]

@mnben87

I have seen pictures comparing them.

have you seen pictures of a person’s lungs who smoked e cigs exclusively for 10 years, vs a person who smoked regular cigarettes for 10 years? That’s more or less what I would be interested in seeing. I’d also be interested in seeing comprehensive bloodwork between both patients, and measurements of other health markers.

And actually, just images of an individual patient wouldn’t tell much of a story either. You’d need AT LEAST 100’s, preferably more, sets of data points.

My point being that there isn’t evidence that exists currently that would convince me one way or the other.

[polo77j]

@pfury

This does not jive with basic reality from anyone that isn’t reading about it on the internet.

Boo boo statement #2 … I’m not speaking as someone who is only reading about it on the internet. Sorry our mutual experiences do not mesh…

@pfury

Black market carts exist because they can so easily be faked and passed off as dispensary level carts

sure, but a dealer passing off a fake cart isn’t going to be in business long