[quote]kroby wrote:
No one should make a greedy buck off the misery of any person.[/quote]
I agree.
Let us nationalize farms because they exploit that people are hungry.
The textile industry because people get cold, all doctors because they benefit from peoples misery, undertakers, for obvious reasons.
So profiting from others needs is ok, unless someone really, really needs it?
And then you are greedy for providing it cheaper and better than the person itself could`?
[quote]orion wrote:
BackForMore wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Rights are not created by the state Lixy.
In most European conceptions of the relationship between government and the citizenry they are. The state giveth and the state is free to taketh away, hence the bloody wars that rage across the continent from time-to-time … but that’s another discussion entirely.
Hence the bloody wars the US starts regularily?
[/quote]
Regularily? In say the last hundred years precisely which wars to you believe were started by the United States?
[quote]BackForMore wrote:
In say the last hundred years precisely which wars to you believe were started by the United States?[/quote]
Technicalities. Declaring war is starting war. Since we haven’t declared a war since WWII, technically, we haven’t started a war.
We just partake in humanitarian intervention.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
BackForMore wrote:
In say the last hundred years precisely which wars to you believe were started by the United States?
Technicalities. Declaring war is starting war. Since we haven’t declared a war since WWII, technically, we haven’t started a war.
We just partake in humanitarian intervention.[/quote]
I was getting at the fact that the USA isn’t in the habit of starting wars but we tend to be in the habit of cleaning up those started by others, principally Europeans.
[quote]BackForMore wrote:
I was getting at the fact that the USA isn’t in the habit of starting wars but we tend to be in the habit of cleaning up those started by others, principally Europeans.[/quote]
If your idea of “cleaning up” is sweeping something under the rug and forgetting about it I agree with you.
[quote]storey420 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I hope they cut the money grubbing ins. companies out of it . And out of the 4 posters ,who is insured ?
I have an HSA and we have some bunk ass blue cross thing from my employer. I personally though would never see a traditional MD or go to a hospital unless I was involved in an accident and needing a bone set or stitches.[/quote]
In the past 20 years I have been in need of stitches twice. The first time was 5 stitches a telfa pad and 4 wraps of gauze. The bill was around $1000. . $200 of that was for the bandage. The second time I needed stitches I did it myself. That is health care in America.
[quote]BackForMore wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
BackForMore wrote:
In say the last hundred years precisely which wars to you believe were started by the United States?
Technicalities. Declaring war is starting war. Since we haven’t declared a war since WWII, technically, we haven’t started a war.
We just partake in humanitarian intervention.
I was getting at the fact that the USA isn’t in the habit of starting wars but we tend to be in the habit of cleaning up those started by others, principally Europeans.[/quote]
is that sarcasm?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
In the past 20 years I have been in need of stitches twice. The first time was 5 stitches a telfa pad and 4 wraps of gauze. The bill was around $1000. . $200 of that was for the bandage. The second time I needed stitches I did it myself. That is health care in America.[/quote]
11 stitches cost me $2500…it took the doc 10 minutes…less than 60 seconds per stitch…that’s $250/minute for the hospitals time or about $220/stitch.
I chose the wrong profession.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
11 stitches cost me $2500…it took the doc 10 minutes…less than 60 seconds per stitch…that’s $250/minute for the hospitals time or about $220/stitch.
I chose the wrong profession.[/quote]
One of the biggest problems concerning costs is hospitals.
They charge individual customers who don’t have insurance far more than they charge insured patients, because the insurance companies drive a hard bargain - and the government forces them to treat everyone. So they try to make up the losses on the backs of the uninsured non-destitute.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
11 stitches cost me $2500…it took the doc 10 minutes…less than 60 seconds per stitch…that’s $250/minute for the hospitals time or about $220/stitch.
I chose the wrong profession.
One of the biggest problems concerning costs is hospitals.
They charge individual customers who don’t have insurance far more than they charge insured patients, because the insurance companies drive a hard bargain - and the government forces them to treat everyone. So they try to make up the losses on the backs of the uninsured non-destitute.[/quote]
These costs can be negotiated down with a simple phone call.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
These costs can be negotiated down with a simple phone call.[/quote]
Well technically I didn’t see the bill. It went straight to my HMO. I only paid a $15 co-pay or something like that.
I think the reason cost are so expensive is that HMOs do not question the price of gauze, for example.
I think we customers should be questioning it and making sure our insurer understands what it is they are paying for. If someone tried to charge ME $100 for gauze I’d have something to say about it. I also think the bill should be given to us as soon as we are ready to check out…just like at a restaurant or grocery store. There is no need for us to get a copy in the mail after it has already been paid by the HMO.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
These costs can be negotiated down with a simple phone call.
Well technically I didn’t see the bill. It went straight to my HMO. I only paid a $15 co-pay or something like that.
I think the reason cost are so expensive is that HMOs do not question the price of gauze, for example.
I think we customers should be questioning it and making sure our insurer understands what it is they are paying for. If someone tried to charge ME $100 for gauze I’d have something to say about it. I also think the bill should be given to us as soon as we are ready to check out…just like at a restaurant or grocery store. There is no need for us to get a copy in the mail after it has already been paid by the HMO.[/quote]
Absolutely.
[quote]
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
11 stitches cost me $2500…it took the doc 10 minutes…less than 60 seconds per stitch…that’s $250/minute for the hospitals time or about $220/stitch.
I chose the wrong profession.
BostonBarrister wrote:
One of the biggest problems concerning costs is hospitals.
They charge individual customers who don’t have insurance far more than they charge insured patients, because the insurance companies drive a hard bargain - and the government forces them to treat everyone. So they try to make up the losses on the backs of the uninsured non-destitute.
Zap Branigan wrote:
These costs can be negotiated down with a simple phone call.[/quote]
A1) Not everyone is aware of this.
A2) They still don’t give regular people HMO or government prices.
B) It’s still ridiculous to try to make the customers least likely to be able to afford the burden cover the cost of a government mandate.
If universal health care is a right and doctors decided to find a different profession, could we have a draft for doctors?
mike
As someone who lives in a country with a National Health Service, I like it. Just to clarify for the other forum members, I am not a communist.
I hate our welfare system that rewards lazy f*ckers who have chosen never to work (along with their parents and grandparents in many cases) and the provision of free housing for anyone who turns up on our shores, but the healthcare thing I like.
I don’t like the way the system is getting abused by the great swarms of immigrants we are currently enduring and the numerous health tourists who have never contributed to the system. But for everyone else who pays their monthly contributions alongside their tax bill are welcome to the healthcare on offer.
I don’t understand the whole thing about doctor’s wages over there in the US though, in England here they are paid very nicely and get free education to get their doctor qualifications.
[quote]Joe D. wrote:
As someone who lives in a country with a National Health Service, I like it. Just to clarify for the other forum members, I am not a communist…
…I don’t understand the whole thing about doctor’s wages over there in the US though, in England here they are paid very nicely and get free education to get their doctor qualifications.[/quote]
I think the problem here is that thanks to decades of anti-communist propaganda, Americans have an irrational fear of anything associated with collectivism and socialism, no matter how effective.
They see “individual” and “collective” as black and white instead of a spectrum of responsibility. An ideal society would fall somewhere about halfway between responsibility and respect for the collective and for the individual.
A “society” where the individual is the only priority is the absence of society.
ElbowStrike
[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
I think the problem here is that thanks to decades of anti-communist propaganda, Americans have an irrational fear of anything associated with collectivism and socialism, no matter how effective.
[/quote]
It’s not about how effective government care is. It’s about the freedom of choice. When government starts making choices for free people they are no longer free. As a paying customer I have a say in how my doctor treats me. In a socialist system this is not the case. I served 4 years in the military so I know about the level of care that is provided in a socialist like system. I have no complaints about the care given but I can honestly say I had no freedom with it. If my doctor wanted to treat me with X instead of Y I had no say. There were no second opinions.
Free society is only brought about by voluntary cooperation. It must be voluntary. In a free society it is the markets that direct the wants and desires of individuals through voluntary cooperation. Government cannot do this because they do not respond to the incentives of profit nor are they accountable to losses.
In a capitalist system money talks and bullshit walks. This is the most equal people will ever be.
[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
I think the problem here is that thanks to decades of anti-communist propaganda, Americans have an irrational fear of anything associated with collectivism and socialism…
[/quote]
Given the history of collectivist “societies” - especially in the 20th century - I don’t think it’s at all irrational to be suspicious of collectivist ideologies.
A “collective” is merely an abstraction and not a reified thing with its own goals & values independent of the people who compose the collective. Who, then, gets to determine the values and goals of your “collective”? Democracy is not capable of such a thing, unless you are talking, perhaps, about a very small political unit, such as a Greek Polis. Otherwise, there is too much diversity - say, in America - to determine & enforce national values or goals. Unless you don’t care about trampling on communities and people who do fit into those values and goals.
[quote]
A “society” where the individual is the only priority is the absence of society.
ElbowStrike[/quote]
This is nonsense - quite the opposite. Collectivist societies have always and everywhere been the most brutally atomistic. Indeed, the nature of a community - where people know, love, care and respect one another - is mutual interdependence; national welfare/social security programs et cetera viscerate that interdependence, and thereby destroy communities. One could make a very strong historical argument that this has happened here in the US and elsewhere.
Real communities thrive where they are free to determine their own values & goals - but organically, not imposed from some “committee,” however ordained.
[Edit: errrr…I had a few too many pints when I wrote this last night: what I was trying to say was: the oft-repeated individualism v. community opposition is a false choice, in my diapered fucking humble opinion ;-)]
[quote]lixy wrote:
BackForMore wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
BackForMore wrote:
In say the last hundred years precisely which wars to you believe were started by the United States?
Technicalities. Declaring war is starting war. Since we haven’t declared a war since WWII, technically, we haven’t started a war.
We just partake in humanitarian intervention.
I was getting at the fact that the USA isn’t in the habit of starting wars but we tend to be in the habit of cleaning up those started by others, principally Europeans.
is that sarcasm?[/quote]
Please. If the USA had a corporate mission statement it would be something along the lines of, “America: Taking out the Eurotrash since 1776”. And for the record no, that was not sarcasm.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
11 stitches cost me $2500…it took the doc 10 minutes…less than 60 seconds per stitch…that’s $250/minute for the hospitals time or about $220/stitch.
I chose the wrong profession.
BostonBarrister wrote:
One of the biggest problems concerning costs is hospitals.
They charge individual customers who don’t have insurance far more than they charge insured patients, because the insurance companies drive a hard bargain - and the government forces them to treat everyone. So they try to make up the losses on the backs of the uninsured non-destitute.
Zap Branigan wrote:
These costs can be negotiated down with a simple phone call.
A1) Not everyone is aware of this.
A2) They still don’t give regular people HMO or government prices.
B) It’s still ridiculous to try to make the customers least likely to be able to afford the burden cover the cost of a government mandate.[/quote]
I think that all of you are missing a point, they need the money and they get it where they are legally allowed to.
Someone has to pay for the services they provide at gunpoint and in that case it is you.
It is easy to blame the hospitals, but they are only reacting to a situation they were forced into.