All — as an update my Doctor wants me to get lower on clomid and take one 50mg pill a week combined with 100/week of sub q testosterone or gel ((my choice)).
You all think this is worth trying? I am leaning toward the sub q injections vs gel — does libido happen to typically be better with one or another? Gel to me just sounds like a pain in the ass.
I think gel has shitty absorption compared to cream. If your going topical I’d look into that. I know a lot of the cream guys swear by it. I like sticking myself personally so I’m bias in saying injections are better. Libido for me was one of the last things that came (steadily good libido).
I think @enackers is/was on cream (could be wrong). Maybe he can chime in.
Thanks dextermorgan. With the gel/cream, the biggest factor for me is not wanting to have to deal with it drying in the morning, with showers etc. From what I have read, some of them can take a half hour to dry, which is crazy …
If I go with injections, my doctor wants me try “XYOSTED” which is a new Sub q - auto-injected version of testosterone E. Seems a bit over-priced, but I think the insurance will cover it.
I’m still curious as to whether the one clomid a week will also keep me naturally producing some testosterone/sperm.
Someone posted (maybe here) that TRT negates clomids effectiveness when taken together. Hopefully someone will come in with more info on that as I can’t remember where I read it but I’m sure @unreal24278 can tell you.
If the xyosted is just a over priced sub-q syringe then that sounds fine but if they come at you with some stupid protocol like every two weeks then you may want to try for regular cheap ass T.
Thanks dexter. My doctor seems to think the clomid could be enough to keep a lower level of testicular function as the estrogen receptor effect would still be in place. The plan would be the 1 clomid and 100 of test E per week. I would think that would get me to at least 600 total testosterone in the trough, free T, E2 obviously TBD.
@unreal24278 — welcome your expertise!
Yes scrotal applied cream is better. Never do gel it’s a waste of time and effort. Absorption sucks.
The cream has to be formulated for scrotal application. You also have to make sure whoever makes it knows what they are doing. We see men often complain it’s not working and quickly realize it was the pharmacy not compounding the cream Properly. They switch to MedQuest or empower and realize results.
Scrotum has very thing skin and alpha 5 reductase. This is why more DHT is created, which supposably makes SHBG less of an issue.(magic word supposably. We don’t know why) So if you have let’s say 100 shbg, you might switch to cream so that you can take a normal dose and not 250 or 300 mg of injectable.
1 click am and one Pm will rise levels easily past 20. Gel maybe 5.
It’s also a very short half life and you don’t have to wait 6 weeks for consistent levels.
Enough I’ll stop there 
Get a better doc. Your doc is not doing you any favors @andyreed
I got an interesting update today. My estradiol sensitive labs from labcorp came back high. ---------39.4 in a range of 8 to 35. -------
However it’s not clear to me whether estrogen matters while on Clomid with the SERM properties blocking estrogen receptors.
This new data point seems to indicate to me that I am on too much Clomid. And I wonder, if I did substantially drop the Clomid dose my testosterone would stay relatively decent and the estrogen would fall… I know that no one can predict for sure, but I do Wonder if it’s the estrogen that is causing the libido issues.
But for starters, does anyone know for sure that estrogen or E2 matters when one is already on Clomid? Are the labs for estrogen when one is on Clomid even accurate?
That’s not high. No clue accuracy. No matter what estrogen is not accurate becusse there is estrogen in the bones, brain; testicles that are not observable through a lab result.
You need to stop lowering dose if libido is an issue. Instead you want to raise it. Your T levels are low and your protocol is not great. You would raise your dose to normal high and expect libido. Not low at your age.
Your free t is 9. ng/dL and 90 pg/dL that’s half of what a 20 year old man should have. Your doc is not doing you any favors.
Libido occurs when free t, DHT and estrogen is higher not lower. I’ve read studies where they do this comparison. There was an Indian doc who swore by ai and lowering e2 . He did some studies and research and realized the men with ai and lower estrogen always had issues with libido. The men with higher estrogen did not.
When you take an ai you raise your free t and DHT; because less converts to e2 and more is available for the other hormones.
Again more free t, DHT and e2 will help. Not lower. You are having these issues becusse your levels aren’t even high enough.
Lastly; a tsh Of 2.0 is not normal. It’s a sign that should be investigated… your doc says it’s fine becusse he was taught in medical school anything under 5 is not treatable by insurance. Yet plenty of men have symptoms as they get over 2. Your libido can improve if thyroid is healthy.
Honestly your doc is just no good. My dad has 500 total and 11 free t and he’s 74 years old. You are more than half as young and your levels are the same. My dad doesn’t want trt because he doesn’t want the libido and frustration.
Increase your dose and give it time to work.
Here is a nice article that shows high estrogen does not cause libido issues.
https://www.discountedlabs.com/blog/post/blog_the_top_18_things_you_did_not_?fbclid=IwAR1RDyDi4-pr_DR4o5vARHE4pZAP3Vyg2ePysJult5wwDLvsPs8TUYLcdPY
look at the amount of participants they had for this study. 34 thousand men. The very last sentence should solidify what I’m saying. Normal lab range estradiol is not really normal.
High estradiol levels are not correlated with erectile dysfunction
Contrary to the popular belief, high estradiol levels are not associated with poor sexual function in males.
A study was conducted on low testosterone centers in the United States, comprising more than 34,000 men. The participants had different ages, some of them being younger than 25 while others being older than 65.
Estradiol levels were measured using electro-chemiluminescence immunoassay and it has been discovered that having too much estradiol in the bloodstream doesn’t lead to poor sex drive and erectile dysfunction.
It has also been discovered that those with low or normal estradiol levels have a higher incidence of poor sex drive and potential erectile dysfunction.
Why does my weiner not work when my e2 creeps up on me then?
THAT’S the million dollar question!
@enackers - is that FB group dbossa was talking about a private group where a request to join needs to be approved?
If I were to want to join, I don’t want the rest of my Facebook folks knowing I’m in that group.
Do you know specifics about it?
More free t helps. If someone is on ai and they stop using AI; this means the free t lowers and estrogen increases. To compensate you increase dose until your body functions properly. The unique range and ratio of your body is what you want to find.
I’ve seen many men on our Facebook group do this. Most have a period of 1-6 weeks where they have poor libido and symptoms. After this amount of time they always come out feeling great. For most they also need to increase their dose. Why? Because they wanted to keep e2 low in the first place and a new increase of hormones throws the body of balance. The receptors have to now get used to the new influx of hormones and this takes time.
This works for men not on ai as well. It jsut works and it would take much longer to go through all the nuances. Otherwise that’s the short version.
I am a moderator their as well. No as long as your privacy settings are setup nobody will know what groups you are in. I don’t think it shows by default either. Might do a quick google search for it.
Ok. How do I find the group?
Clomid is worse than pointless if you take TRT. At best, it might trigger higher than normal aromatisation of your test dose.
Libido and ED are different things. E2 is anecdotally reported to affect some men in the ED department. There are some studies out now (real studies, published and peer reviewed) that show problems with being out of range either way with E2, but more importantly to not be out of ratio. You need enough free E2, but not way too much in relation to T.
"Elevated T/E2 Ratio Is Associated with an Increased Risk of Cerebrovascular Disease in Elderly Men - PMC
Elevated T/E2 Ratio Is Associated with an Increased Risk of Cerebrovascular Disease in Elderly Men
T/E2 balance plays a key role in the relationship between sex hormones and the risk of cerebrovascular disease. The balance between T and E2 may be more important than their absolute quantities. Extremely low T/E2 and inappropriately high T/E2 ratio can both harm the brain blood vessels.
higher FT would usually have positive relationship with increasing risk of CEVD. Subjects in the highest quartile of FT had a 2-fold higher risk of CEVD compared with the lowest quartile
our data suggest that 7.5 pmol/L of free estrogen is the cut-off point above which the risk of CEVD decreases 86% compared to the risk of the highest-risk group.
A recent study [25] measured blood estradiol in 501 men with chronic heart failure and found that men in the highest quintile of estradiol (serum estradiol more than 37.40 pg/mL or 137.26 pmol/L) had an increased death rate"
Thanks everyone, I will reply in much more detail once I get out of work. In the meantime I appreciate everyone’s advice and input, for me at least though it doesn’t seem like anyone is sure whether estrogen even matters on Clomid with the serm properties.
Second, with the comments on my testosterone, being too low for example, I feel like the statistical range is being entirely ignored. You know with every lab having different standards and techniques being in the middle of the range at 10 of some unit, doesn’t necessarily equate to ten of some unit of a particular test from another lab. My above free testosterone of 94 in a range of 34 to 155 is not low! There is no way, that someone needs to be at the top of the range or the best place in a Range on every test to feel good and perform good, people are different.
Thanks, I appreciate it. Do I just request to join the group?
Yes sir
I have switched my protocol to 30mg/day (210 mg/week) in order to raise up my FT and see if I can finally find some libido.
It’s only been 3 weeks. The first couple were hard. Felt almost like I had low E2. Very emotionless. Now, just as of the past couple days, I feel a little boost in libido. Just a tiny bit. So I’m wondering if the FT is on the rise.
My concern is that PDE5s are barely working now. On lower doses of Test, they work great. But libido isn’t really present.
I definitely agree libido and erection quality DON"T go hand in hand and are unrelated, hormonally.