I hear you on needing TSH to be closer to one. My primary care and endo think I’m fine though, so i’m in a tough spot. I will add that I feel hot all the damn time and have really good energy – which of course doesn’t make sense if I were to be truly too low on thyroid hormones.
On the E2 ---- does anyone know for a fact whether clomid tends to make you feel low or high estrogen? Many people on the internets, claim that clomid deprives your body of the estrogen signal … while others claim that clomid’s weak estrogenic action gives you too much estrogen.
Right you are, libido is in the brain. I bet if we test brain hormones we find these guys with low or no libido to have deficiencies in brain hormones that TRT can’t always fix.
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Dopamine production requires free T, it is all related.
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I am meeting with an Andrology/Endo specialist this coming Tuesday to ask for a second opinion and options going forward.
Does anyone have an opinion on:
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Whether reducing the clomid dosage could keep the hormones close to where they are – and may improve the libido? I am on 50mg clomid 4x a week, if I dropped it to 25mg 3x a week… is there a chance of improvement in sex drive?
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Are there other SERMS that would be a better option that clomid long term like Toremifene?
Nolvadex is another one to look into.
Is there a reason you’re set on not just going with TRT? I admittedly haven’t read the whole thread so this may be a dumb question.
I just haven’t ever really seen anyone feel better on on Clomid for whatever reason, regardless of blood test numbers
Clomid and libido are like opposites, once the zuclomiphene builds up in the bloodstream, kiss libido goodby. The zuclomiphene is the estrogen receptor agonist, once elevated there is little to no libido.
This is why you always hear men speak of having libido initially on clomid, then libido tapers off and that is because zuclomiphene building up in your system.
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I was able to get off wellbutrin (dopamine & norepinephrine re-uptake inhibitor) after being on TRT for a while so it definitely makes a difference in dopamine production. My libido and erection quality is much better as well.
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Not quite sure Wellbutrin agonizes receptors. Just prevent reuptake.
The biggest thing is fertility. It took me almost two years to get my LH/FSH back after a combo of TRT/hcg treatment for about 4 years. Second, its probably a bit juvenile, but I really dread the idea of shrinking testicles. If I was married, I’d be more okay with it, but on the dating open market, it really hits my self esteem.
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Roscoe88 – My understanding is that its just reuptake as well.
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Systemlord – highly appreciate the chart even if its a bit depressing.
For a bit more back story, I started clomid on 50mg 5x a week. Which led to a bit of fluid retention in the ankles, suggesting high estrogen right? My clomid was reduced to 50mg 4x a week, which is where it has stood.
I do wonder if could go down to maybe 1/4 or 1/3 of what I am on now, mostly retain the testosterone benefits… and maybe the negatives sides could be reduced. I wonder if my e2 is still too high, just not enough to give fluid retention. I still don’t quite grasp whether e2 even matters on clomid though with its SERM effect. ((((I have read so many inconsistent theories on forums about this, welcome expert knowledge))))
Regarding examples of clomid success — I do feel like these forums probably create at least some bias. Guys who continue to have issues come back to the forums vent and seek help. Guys where treatments work fine – probably the overwhelming majority of them , go on , live their lives, and don’t ever return to the web to document their success.
Once I’m four beers in I can no longer be accountable for what I say.
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You’re still not getting it, clomid is stimulating and antagonizing the hell out of your estrogen receptors, it’s why you will have no libido on clomid. I see all the time men with “perfect labs” estrogen not high and they still feel no libido and the reasons are as I explained.
There is no universe were you have a normal libido on clomid, you would have to be a unicorn.
Systemlord — starting to get it. I guess i’m just in denial. It pains me to no end that Androxal was not approved. I feel like it could of solved many of our problems for life.
I talk to the Doctor tomorrow about options.
Lastly – welcome comments on if ((with my labs)) weaning off clomid and seeing where I land is worth it.
Search PCT on here. You will see plenty of posts with tapers recommended.
I know, that’s exactly how I read it, denial. I see guys often talking themselves out of TRT, in denial low testosterone is the cause all while Free T is below range, they start to believe fatigue has another reason.
Well I definitely do not have fatigue in anyway shape or form. My energy is great, I’m close to the best shape of my life, etc — it truly only is the libido.
Just got out of a stunningly dissappointing second opinion appointment, it was very clear that he was a numbers guy and not a symptoms guy, basically said he doesn’t support any type of trt for me and just wants me to go off Clomid cold turkey. So I’m going to stick with my current doctor, who supports Clomid, testosterone injections if I want them, Etc.
I’m going to ask my current doctor if we can start lowering the Clomid and see what happens. If I am on 50 mg 4 times a week right now, who knows if the bad side effects will be reduced at taking it once a week, and maybe my hormones will be close to comparable.
If their is no improvement at least I will know that i truly did try everything when I commit to probably a lifetime of testosterone injections.
I will try to update over the next few months as a good data sample for everyone else in my type of position.
It’s not your doctor saying no to TRT, it’s the insurance company, your doctor is just a puppet.
I really don’t think it’s my insurance, I have some of the best insurance in the country as a federal employee, they cover HCG and all sorts of crazy stuff. And this case, was a university professor, I truly think he is just a by the Numbers guy, who doesn’t give a shitt how you feel.