I lot of you guys have a much stronger historical/geo-political understanding than myself; so I’m posing this question to The Forum.
What is it about the history and current politics, of an obviously Islamic country like Turkey…that allows it to “support”/(tolerate?) the U.S.?
In doing so, why isn’t it racked almost daily with suicide attacks and bombings? What helps maintain Turkish stability in the Middle East?
What is Turkey’s relationship with Israel?
Thanks, guys!
Mufasa
Turkey is an amalgam nation that has a stronger history in her nation than in her religion.
Most of the extremist states, are just recently came out of a state of dark ages where they lacked a concept of nationalism, ethnic group or history further than their tribe.
On the other hand, Turkey was an empire during the Ottoman era, in the same way France was several hundred years ago, as you can see, France is not currently a theocracy because of it, and has created a statist ideology larger than that of Catholicism. With that parralel drawn, I think you can see where Turkey fits.
Also, it’s important to note that Turkey or Ottoman Turkey was a rebellion in some ways against the Muslim empire for the glorification of the warrior caste, the Turks. Thuse they actually created their Empire at the expense of a decaying Muslim empire.
Um, after the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI Turkey came under the helm of a new leader, Attaturk (sp?) who instituted secularism as one of the foundations of the new state. As Attaturk is still very highly regarded there (I think someone was prosecuted for suggesting he was a cross-dresser - they won’t here anything against him) secularism is seen as good.
Occasionally a more Islamist government comes into power and swiftly gets knocked down by the military - there is a power struggle between the secular military who are scared of fundamentalist uprising and some of the more extreme political parties.
Because of this secularism, the main divide within the country is ethnic - Kurd rebellion fighters in the south of the country, near to the border of Iraq; there have been a few suicide bombs but these are rare. Turkey had US missiles on their territory in the 50s I think (if not someone please correct me). Also their relationship with Israel is interesting - there are some under-the-table armament deals where Turkey gets some of Israel’s equipment.
Rohnyn I have no idea what you’re talking about but just because a nation has ruled an Empire for several years doesn’t necessarily mean they won’t be a theocracy - case in point Iran
I am saying the construction of a nation can become greater and more real than that of a religion. In the case of Iran, Iran was an empire in decline for half a millenia and then some phony ass Brit-backed dictator ran whatever vestige of national pride that came with that through the mud, while purposefully supressing the religion. Iran is kind of unique.
But overall, I was really trying to express than the fantacism of Islam and Chrisitanity are no different, and that under the same circumstances, Islam will take a backseat like Catholicism does. This was the point of the analogy of France & Turkey.
Rohnyn is absolutely right. Turkey is very nationalist and secular. There is a tremendous pride in that country. It has it’s share of radicals, but life in Turkey is not run by religion. Turks are not Arabs, so much like Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) the Turks are Muslim without the cultural hangups of the Arabian penninsula and the Levant.
This is great information, guys! Thanks!
How do the Turks appear to keep tabs on things like suicide bombings?
Do they have them, but merely keep a tight lid on the reporting of them? Or are they just much better at suppressing the radical elements within their borders?
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
This is great information, guys! Thanks!
How do the Turks appear to keep tabs on things like suicide bombings?
Do they have them, but merely keep a tight lid on the reporting of them? Or are they just much better at suppressing the radical elements within their borders?
Mufasa[/quote]
I think you are equating correlation as causation.
You believe the presence of Islam in a society as being connected to suicide bombings and other forms of fanatacism.
However, this sort of fantacism has been seen in Japanese Imperialists, Communists (Lenin’s Brother was a Suicide bomber who killed a Tsar), Sikhs and in Christian groups.
As well as obviously in Iraq & Afghanistan, however, I would not say this is a cultural construct in any of these places except one…
The only place where there is a grand prevalence of suicide bombers and culture supporting it, is Palestine. This has to do with the helpless, shameful poverty and desperation of her people.
I am not a bleeding heart for the Palestinians, but if you know anything about their situation, they are basically a conquered people who have been put (literally) into giant cages in their own homeland, stripped of their homes and then held down by an invading people with the armament/monetary support from the largest super power in the world, the USA.
If you went from a nation, to nothing, in 40 years and had zero chance of conventional rebellion because of impossible odds and had seen your Mother and Further murdered in front of you while scraping by in impossible poverty…I think you would strap a bomb to your chest and blow yourself up as well.
The people of Palestine are unique, and are suffering from major depressive disorders on a grand scale.
As to how to relate this to Turkey, they are an upper income country, with a respectable level of social justice and are completely without the level of isolation, desperation and poverty that mix to make a suicidal ethnic group…so no, they do not have this problem.
Food for thought as well, when you think of American school shooters, who go on a murderous rampage because they feel angry and desperate…you do not equate this with American people in general. It is the same thing with Middle Easterners, and I’ve already explained why that mental insanity has become so prevalent in Palestine.
Watch this if you want to see how truly dire a situation has to be for people to blow themselves up.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I lot of you guys have a much stronger historical/geo-political understanding than myself; so I’m posing this question to The Forum.
[/quote]
Turkey is only nominally Islamic. Headscarves aren’t even allowed at school. Turkey is to Islam as France is to Catholicism: on a census everyone is religious, in reality, especially in the Urban areas, most are not very religious.
The History is that After WWI Mustafa Kemal decided to westernize/modernize the country, making it officially a secular republic, and adopting things like a (modified) roman alphabet, and trying to purge Arabic influence from the culture.
2) In doing so, why isn’t it racked almost daily with suicide attacks and bombings? What helps maintain Turkish stability in the Middle East?
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
2) In doing so, why isn’t it racked almost daily with suicide attacks and bombings? What helps maintain Turkish stability in the Middle East?
[/quote]
It’s not really in the Middle East, most of Istanbul is in Europe. They are rocked by terrorist attacks though, but they come from the Kurds trying to create an independent Kurdistan.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
3) What is Turkey’s relationship with Israel?
[/quote]
They recognize it.
I’m sure I’m repeating some of what others have said.
Thanks, Rohnyn.
I’m sure I’m getting my view “skewed”? by the coverage in Iraq and to a much lesser extent, in England. So you’re right.
It just seemed to me that a country so vital to the movement of U.S. personnel and material to both Iraq and Afghanistan would be a prime target of the Jihadist.
Mufasa
[quote]Bambi wrote:
Rohnyn I have no idea what you’re talking about but just because a nation has ruled an Empire for several years doesn’t necessarily mean they won’t be a theocracy - case in point Iran[/quote]
Your logic is sound here, but Turkey’d circumstances I think make it a particularly unlikely candidate for a theocracy. They’re now on their third, forth or even fifth generation living under a secular government that is almost anti-theist (banning headgear for example).
Ataturk did a really good job of more or less inventing (reclaiming?) a Turkish identity from the Islamic (Arab dominated) world.
What you need to know about Turkey is this. The most important secular institution in Turkey is the military. It has been through the imposition of several military Junta’s along with the constant threat of another one that they have been able to keep Turkey as secular as it is.
One of the EU demands on Turkey for entry into the EU is that the Turkish constitution be rewritten so that the military no longer has the authority to intervene to maintain secularism.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
What you need to know about Turkey is this. The most important secular institution in Turkey is the military. It has been through the imposition of several military Junta’s along with the constant threat of another one that they have been able to keep Turkey as secular as it is.
One of the EU demands on Turkey for entry into the EU is that the Turkish constitution be rewritten so that the military no longer has the authority to intervene to maintain secularism. [/quote]
It is my opinion that without threat of a military coup, the Turkish secularism beloved by the West would disappear within a generation. We’re already seeing that with the success of the AKP.
Turkey is more than Istanbul.