[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Am I the only guy that watched this? I am not sure that they are going to discredit this documentary. Moveon.org is far too credible of a source.
Mike[/quote]
I’m not sure that you completely understand the situation…
to the G.W. (and co.) is infallible crowd, the only credible sources that exist are one’s that praise G.W (and co.)…anything that is not praise is brushed aside as goof-ball conspiracy theories…
[quote]30yrheel wrote:
The US is now spending $10 billion a MONTH to screw around in Afghanistan and Iraq, up from 8.2 billion last year. Adjusting for inflation, that’s more than 50% more than was spent at the height of the Vietnam War.
Un-freaking-believable.[/quote]
What is that ~ $ 30 dollars a month for every man woman and child in the US to fight our murderous enemies?
Less than my cable bill.
Where do I send my check?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
30yrheel wrote:
The US is now spending $10 billion a MONTH to screw around in Afghanistan and Iraq, up from 8.2 billion last year. Adjusting for inflation, that’s more than 50% more than was spent at the height of the Vietnam War.
Un-freaking-believable.
What is that ~ $ 30 dollars a month for every man woman and child in the US to fight our murderous enemies?
Less than my cable bill.
Where do I send my check?[/quote]
Yeah right, like every man, woman, and child contributes. Get real man.
At least I get something in return when I pay my cable bill. What exactly is our goal over there? To change their religious beliefs? Ain’t gonna happen, they can wait us out. What’s a few more years when you’re talking about thousands of years?
[quote]30yrheel wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
30yrheel wrote:
The US is now spending $10 billion a MONTH to screw around in Afghanistan and Iraq, up from 8.2 billion last year. Adjusting for inflation, that’s more than 50% more than was spent at the height of the Vietnam War.
Un-freaking-believable.
What is that ~ $ 30 dollars a month for every man woman and child in the US to fight our murderous enemies?
Less than my cable bill.
Where do I send my check?
Yeah right, like every man, woman, and child contributes. Get real man.
At least I get something in return when I pay my cable bill. What exactly is our goal over there? To change their religious beliefs? Ain’t gonna happen, they can wait us out. What’s a few more years when you’re talking about thousands of years?
[/quote]
That is exactly how I feel about it. Our presence over there will be in vain the moment we leave.
[quote]30yrheel wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
30yrheel wrote:
The US is now spending $10 billion a MONTH to screw around in Afghanistan and Iraq, up from 8.2 billion last year. Adjusting for inflation, that’s more than 50% more than was spent at the height of the Vietnam War.
Un-freaking-believable.
What is that ~ $ 30 dollars a month for every man woman and child in the US to fight our murderous enemies?
Less than my cable bill.
Where do I send my check?
Yeah right, like every man, woman, and child contributes. Get real man.
At least I get something in return when I pay my cable bill. What exactly is our goal over there? To change their religious beliefs? Ain’t gonna happen, they can wait us out. What’s a few more years when you’re talking about thousands of years?
[/quote]
I don’t understand.
Are you implying all Muslims are terrorists and are our enemey?
Or do you merely believe that the average Muslim deserves to be ruled by the Taliban?
[quote]DPH wrote:
to the G.W. (and co.) is infallible crowd, the only credible sources that exist are one’s that praise G.W (and co.)…anything that is not praise is brushed aside as goof-ball conspiracy theories…[/quote]
I agree. Frankly I find conservatives every bit as threatening to my freedom as liberals. They are the ones trying to constitutionally outlaw gay marriage and flag burning. They are also the guys authoring that damn law in Texas where they are sending undercover cops into bars where they arrest drunk people. I just felt it was important to point out that this particular video is horseshit if for no other reason than Moveon.org put it together.
Mike
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
DPH wrote:
to the G.W. (and co.) is infallible crowd, the only credible sources that exist are one’s that praise G.W (and co.)…anything that is not praise is brushed aside as goof-ball conspiracy theories…
I agree. Frankly I find conservatives every bit as threatening to my freedom as liberals. They are the ones trying to constitutionally outlaw gay marriage and flag burning. They are also the guys authoring that damn law in Texas where they are sending undercover cops into bars where they arrest drunk people. I just felt it was important to point out that this particular video is horseshit if for no other reason than Moveon.org put it together.
Mike[/quote]
I don’t trust either side but when it comes to the war effort I believe the lies told by groups like MoveOn are especially reprehensible.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I don’t understand.
Are you implying all Muslims are terrorists and are our enemey?
Or do you merely believe that the average Muslim deserves to be ruled by the Taliban?[/quote]
I know what I’m implying. I’m implying that we are talking about a region of people who didn’t grow up with Looney Toones, a brand new bike on Christmas morning and colorful breakfast cereals with leprechauns and silly rabbits on the box. They kind of missed out on Baywatch and my guess is, there aren’t too many malls in Iraq where the girls are wearing low cut jeans at the age of 14 and lip gloss (who happen to not be virgins).
Their version of “free” is probably not like our version of “free” and with the warring differences of opinion, I strongly believe that should we pull out right now, this very second…that entire country would be sitting in the middle of civil religious war within 2 weeks.
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
I find conservatives every bit as threatening to my freedom as liberals.
Mike[/quote]
well put…
By posting the link to that video, I was not trying to make any generalisations or assumptions about the armed forces themselves. I believe that most of them are good people fighting for what they see as Iraqi freedom, which is a noble and worthy cause. I thank those of you who are willing to sacrifice your own life for others. You are very brave.
However, I did post the video because I think it is sickeningly wrong that our governments took you brave soldiers to war for fabricated reasons and told you that you are fighting for a good cause.
While your presence and efforts in Iraq may very well be benefiting the Iraqi people, and of this you shouuld be proud, the matter of fact is that you were not sent there for this reason.
While I understand many people have read a lot of information supporting the war in Iraq, which may be equally as valid or at least credible as any ant-war information, I see the fact that the sheer number of Military, Intelligence, and Government personelle in this video who are so openly criticising the grounds that were given for war should provide enough evidence that our governments lied to us, lied to the world, and lied to the brave young women and men who they were sending to their deaths for a lie. This is unacceptable.
Furthermore, they ignored and brushed aside the UN process, an organisation which we put into place to make sure that exactly this kind of scenario did not occur.
For those who openly admit that the war is for alternative reasons than those given by our governments and continue to support them:
Firstly; you are consequently openly admitting that our governments are lying to us and that you are cool with it.
Secondly; some of you believe that sometimes our governments need to do things we wouldn’t necessarily agree with to secure the future of our nations. This is exactly the same logic that Hitler and the Nazi Party believed true as they invaded europe and began their extermination of the Jews.
So some of you are cool with the fact that our governments lied to us and simultaneously are cool with the fact that they are making the decision to sacrifice other people’s lives for the lives of our children?
I thought our countries believed that everyone was created equal? How does this suddenly change when you leave our borders? How can you justify invading another country, who poses no threat to us, in order to benefit our future generations? Would you sympathise with a nation who invaded us for the same reasons?
In conclusion, I do not believe that we should abondon Iraq in it’s current state, I believe we need to sack both the Bush and Blair Administrations completely and elect new administrations who are capable of staying comitted to Iraq, comitted to a respectable foreign policy, and most importantly comitted to the laws of our constitutions, the rights of people, and HONESTY.
-Sep
[quote]Sepukku wrote:
While your presence and efforts in Iraq may very well be benefiting the Iraqi people, and of this you shouuld be proud, the matter of fact is that you were not sent there for this reason.
For those who openly admit that the war is for alternative reasons than those given by our governments and continue to support them:
Firstly; you are consequently openly admitting that our governments are lying to us and that you are cool with it.
[/quote]
Close, but not quite. Here is the way I look at it:
John is throwing a party for all his little vegetarian friends. I thankfully am not a vegetarian. In fact I think the party should be thrown at my house which has a barbeque, plus gallons of Sam Adams beer. However, I do know that Lisa will be there. Lisa is 5’10",120lbs,green eyes with brown hair down to her ass and she doesn’t believe in wearing underwear. Now I am going to this party, believe me. However, when I get there I am not going to pretend that I like veggies. I am not going to go say hi to John. I am going to walk up to Lisa, carry her into the other room, bend her over and give her both inches.
Iraq is one big fucking party right now and everyone is invited. If you want to strap a bomb to yourself and kill some infidels, come on in. If you want to join up with Blackwater and make some cash, come on in! If you want to fight “Bush’s War” go right ahead. Or if you want to grab a rifle and try to do some genuine good over there, well, you’re welcome too.
[/quote]
You just justified it for me. I do in fact believe that all men are created equal. Saddam and many muslim fundamentalists do not. Put down the “Gaurdian” for a minute. We are not systematically wasting thousands of civilians over there. We are killing genuine bad guys. Unfortunately civvies do get hurt, but you speak as if we are firing arty into cities to level them. That just is not happening.
Mike
It looks like the point I was making went completely over your head, even though I made it clear that I do not have any issues with the people “over there”, but entirely with the people who are “sending them.”
I dont really know what the point of your party analogy was, but I like the sound of that girl. Sounds like she wont be much of a vegetarian after you feed her some sausage. 
P.S: I don’t read the Guardian, but good stereotyped assumption use; 12 points.
Hey, I’ll reiterate what I’ve said before, I am not against a war every now and then, as long as the reasons are just and the public is not mislead in order to get the thing launched.
You know something tangential that really frosts my flakes? It’s the fact that the intelligence community has been left to twist in some grand “intelligence failure”, which just is not true.
Once again, I am disappointed that the administration continues to play little word games and hide behind semantics when it could either not do so many underhanded things or it could own up to it’s actions.
Hello, integrity anyone?
Ex-CIA agent says WMD intelligence ignored
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060421/pl_nm/iraq_intelligence_cia_dc_1
[i]
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The CIA had evidence Iraq possessed no weapons of mass destruction six months before the 2003 U.S.-led invasion but was ignored by a White House intent on ousting Saddam Hussein, a former senior CIA official said according to CBS.
Tyler Drumheller, who headed CIA covert operations in Europe during the run-up to the Iraq war, said intelligence opposing administration claims of a WMD threat came from a top Iraqi official who provided the U.S. spy agency with other credible information.
The source “told us that there were no active weapons of mass destruction programs,” Drumheller said in a CBS interview to be aired on Sunday on the network’s news magazine, “60 Minutes.”
“The (White House) group that was dealing with preparation for the Iraq war came back and said they were no longer interested,” he was quoted as saying in interview excerpts released by CBS on Friday.
“We said: ‘Well, what about the intel?’ And they said: ‘Well, this isn’t about intel anymore. This is about regime change’,” added Drumheller, whose CIA operation was assigned the task of debriefing the Iraqi official.
He was the latest former U.S. official to accuse the White House of setting an early course toward war in Iraq and ignoring intelligence that conflicted with its aim.
CBS said the CIA’s intelligence source was former Iraqi Foreign Minister Naji Sabri and that former CIA Director George Tenet delivered the information personally to President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and other top White House officials in September 2002. They rebuffed the CIA three days later.
“The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy,” the former CIA agent told CBS.
U.S. allegations that Saddam had WMD and posed a threat to international security was a main justification for the March 2003 invasion.
A 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, to which the CIA was a major contributor, concluded that prewar Iraq had an active nuclear program and a huge stockpile of unconventional weapons.
No such weapons have been found, however, and U.S. assertions that they existed are now regarded as a hugely damaging intelligence failure.
But Drumheller, co-author of a forthcoming book entitled “On the Brink: How the White House Has Compromised American Intelligence,” rejects the notion of an intelligence failure.
“It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an intelligence failure,” he told CBS. “This was a policy failure.”
[/i]
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
30yrheel wrote:
The US is now spending $10 billion a MONTH to screw around in Afghanistan and Iraq, up from 8.2 billion last year. Adjusting for inflation, that’s more than 50% more than was spent at the height of the Vietnam War.
Un-freaking-believable.
What is that ~ $ 30 dollars a month for every man woman and child in the US to fight our murderous enemies?
Less than my cable bill.
Where do I send my check?[/quote]
http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/quagmire/IraqQuagmire.pdf
Now this was in 2005. It may be a little different now maybe more or less. My bet is more. I will do a little more research to find a 2006 bill.
All of this can be found on page 3 under C. Econimic Costs.
The Bill So Far: “Congress has already approved four spending bills for Iraq with funds totaling $204.4 billion and is in the process of appoving a “bridge fund” for $45.3 billion to cover operation until another supplemental spending packange can be passed, most likely slated for Spring 2006. Broken down per person in the United States, the cost so far is $727, makine the Iraq War the most expensive military effort in the last 60 years”
Now Im not trying to start anything here, I am just simply stating that the bill is a little more than $30 a person.
Goku
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I don’t understand.
Are you implying all Muslims are terrorists and are our enemey?
Or do you merely believe that the average Muslim deserves to be ruled by the Taliban?
I know what I’m implying. I’m implying that we are talking about a region of people who didn’t grow up with Looney Toones, a brand new bike on Christmas morning and colorful breakfast cereals with leprechauns and silly rabbits on the box. They kind of missed out on Baywatch and my guess is, there aren’t too many malls in Iraq where the girls are wearing low cut jeans at the age of 14 and lip gloss (who happen to not be virgins).
Their version of “free” is probably not like our version of “free” and with the warring differences of opinion, I strongly believe that should we pull out right now, this very second…that entire country would be sitting in the middle of civil religious war within 2 weeks.[/quote]
I think our being there now is only delaying the inevitable. Even if we pull out in 3 years the different groups will see there chance and act on it.
Goku
[quote]Goku_SS4 wrote:
I think our being there now is only delaying the inevitable. Even if we pull out in 3 years the different groups will see there chance and act on it.
Goku
[/quote]
?bump?