Uncensored Iraq Footage

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You fail to take into account all of the people who would have either been killed or tortured over the last few years had Saddam still been in power.

Are you aware of how many of his own countrymen were killed or tortured during Saddams rein?

And who knows how much regional power he would have had had the US not taken him out?

There are also other things that you fail to consider with your myopic view.

Yes, and as HE failed to consider what you justed posted, YOU have failed to consider who enabled Hussein, supplied him with weapons, supported him in a war of aggression.

See, every side in a political debate suffers from myopia. They each wear their own corrective lenses that allow them to see just far enough to support their views, but never any further.

The Soviets and Europeans supplied Saddam with the overwhelming majority of his weapons.

What does that have to do with this discussion?[/quote]

yea right, i suppose you found this on a fox news site? please stop lying to yourself, it’s too much work. just admit that your a war monger, like your idol bush. it’s not your fault your being mis-lead, you were born that way. i’ll bet you jack off to pictures of cruise missles, and dead soldiers.

This is pretty amusing:

http://nihlist.blogspot.com/2006/06/top-11-things-that-anti-war-protesters.html

Top 11 Things That Anti-War Protesters Would Have Said At the Normandy Invasion on D-Day (Had There Been Anti-War Protesters At Normandy)

  1. No blood for French Wine!

  2. It?s been two and a half years since Pearl Harbor and they still haven?t brought Admiral Nagumo to justice

  3. In 62 years, the date will be 6/6/6. A coincidence? I think not.

  4. All this death and destruction is because the neo-cons are in the pocket of Israel

  5. The soldiers are still on the beach, this invasion is a quagmire

  6. Sure the holocaust is evil, but so was slavery

  7. We are attacked by Japan and then attack France? Roosevelt is worse than the Kaiser!

  8. Why bring democracy to Europe by force and not to Korea or Vietnam? I blame racism

  9. This war doesn?t attack the root causes of Nazism

  10. I support the troops, but invading Germany does not guarantee that in 56 years we won’t have a President who’s worse than Hitler

  11. I don’t see Roosevelt or Churchill storming the beaches – they’re Chicken Hawks

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
It can be done, but the will of the people needs to be there.

Unfortunely, there have been so many talking points fed to the American people that many truly believe that a picture of an Iraqi woman with paint on her voting finger somehow means we have created freedom in that country. If these people don’t gather together and fight for it, they will lose it the moment “big brother” isn’t guarding their every move. Why are our people dying for that?[/quote]

A very appropriate question. Probably worthy of its own thread.

I can’t believe how clueless some of you guys are.

The US was only a minor supplier of weapons to Saddam. This is a fact.

To pretend otherwise is silly.

It undermines any point you are trying to make.

[quote]TRC wrote:
Goal=Colossus wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrot

It is not foolish at all. Saddam Hussain has executed far fewer people in his entire regime than have died as a result of the war.

There is no way you can execute over 150 thousand people in fewer than four years without losing the loyalties of your army.
You kill enough families and you end up killing quite a few of your soldiers families.

.
Are you kidding me here? Why do you think he had loyalty of armies? They feared him, they feared for their lives, for their family?s lives. Recall the first Gulf war when they surrendered by the thousands? They were happy to see the Americans because their current situation sucked.
One thing you cannot deny about Iraq, is that the people hated him, hated him with a passion, and are glad he is gone. What’s going on now is the big time power struggle of the many different groups who want power. They are doing whatever it takes to get it., and discredit what is already there. They will kill each other; kill the coalition forces so as to undermine what they are doing.
Another point? you are absolutely in sane if you think that Sadam wasn?t a threat to the area, and the world. In sane to think that he didn?t have chemical weapons, etc. He used them many times! Do you think that nice guy Sadam woke up one day and decided to just destroy his weapons for the better of man kind? You should really be asking yourself, where did they go, and who has them?
(In the fairness of full disclosure, I am in Iraq right now.)

[/quote]

Firsly, i stand by my opinion that more Iraqis have been killed in the present war than in Saddam Hussain’s 30 year regime as a result of execution.

Point to evidence otherwise and i will surely rething my opinion.

As far as thier situation sucking then, it sucks worse now.
People will continue to be killed in mass in Iraq with or without Saddam, only now whatever infrastructure you had before is gone and will take decades to rebuild by you and other Americans, through Reserves troops and tax money.
You said Saddam was a threat to the rest of the world.
The only real threat Saddam possed to the U.S. on the other side of the world is through oil production.
If he or anyone wanted to expose the U.S. to a wide spread biological weapon it would be relatively simply given an adequate budget.
The same goes with a chemical weapon except the production would have to be outside the U.S.
I mean if you can transport thousands of tons of Heroin every year, what would it take to make the junmp to transporting 6-8 tons of nerve agent gradually.
I’d be very surprised if this wasn’t allready happening.

So no ICBMs=no physical threat to the U.S.

Can you can honestly tell me that the majority of Iraqis would trade their lives for Democratic freedoms without insserting your own feelings about these freedoms?
If the answer is yes, then why was it necessary for the U.S. to initiate Saddams toppling, why not let the people initiate a wide spread war and then assist? Where were the daily attacks on saddams palaces?

If there was such a hatred, why not fund this hatred, why not organize this great mass of ready and willing people through the methods we used on many occasions to inderectly provide force like we did against th Soviet Union in Afghanistan?

Diplomacy not working, the next step is indirect support for opposition.
The point is their was no real opposition group.
There was only angry individuals, without the will to put Shiaa or Sunni or Kurd asside and be that opposition?
Possing an oppossition to someone as horrendous as Husain is much easier than forming any stable Democracy, and it didn’t happen.
Which is why there will always be mass bloodshed in Iraq, without or without the babysitting of the U.S. forces.

[quote]Goal=Colossus wrote:

Firsly, i stand by my opinion that more Iraqis have been killed in the present war than in Saddam Hussain’s 30 year regime as a result of execution.

[/quote]

Well then, less Iraquis have died because of American executions than by Saddams wars…

If you compare apples and oranges why not also bananas and grapefruits…

Take the total headcount of all of his wars, executions and gasing of whole villages and I think the Iraquis are far better of now.

Iraq-Iranian war 375000 (Iraquis)
Mass graves so far 300000

               =675000

675000/30 years/365 days/year= 61,64 Iraquis/day

These are very conservative numbers.

So, less people die and there is at least a chance for freedom.

Plus, no raperooms. Or gased children. Or two soon-to-be-dictators running amok.

[quote]Goal=Colossus wrote:
Firsly, i stand by my opinion that more Iraqis have been killed in the present war than in Saddam Hussain’s 30 year regime as a result of execution.[/quote]

You are wrong. Saddam had been killing in Iraq since 1969. Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam’s 1987-1988 campaign against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and as many as 100,000. That was in just ONE year of his regime. Statistically his regime killed more people than have died today in the conflict. Granted as a civil war will ultimately ensue, as it always does when a new government is forming while bearing the pressure of the outside element of insurgency, more Iraqis will die. Freedom is not free.

I suppose we could have turned the other cheek as the world did when 6 million Jews were killed or when 4-5 million Cambodians were slaughtered or the 800,000 to 1,000,000 Tutsis were wiped out. He was after just killing his own people. What business what it of ours, right?

Next, Iraqis did not rise up against Saddam for the same reason Afghanis didn?t rise up against the Taliban and the Tutsis did not rise against the Hutu? fear and inability. I suggest that before you begin speaking for the Iraqis in regards to what they do or do not want, you speak TO the Iraqis. IMO the only person on this thread who has even the most remote capacity to speak for the Iraqi?s is one in Iraq whom you have all chosen to ignore.

Lastly, the US has started rebuilding in Iraq. As is common through out US history, we clean up our messes. In the few cases where we [US & UN] did not stay as a stabilizing presence after mucking around in a country (Post WWI Germany and Somalia and Rwanda and Sudan) there was genocide and atrocities in the wake of starvation and infighting for power. The Geopolitics of Hunger and Me Against My Brother: At War in Somalia, Sudan and Rwanda are excellent examples of what happens when you leave a fledgling government without support or guidance. Afghanistan has taught us a valuable lesson about finishing the job without bulldozing the process. With any luck that lesson will carry over and be successful in Iraq as well.

War is not pretty gentlemen. It is not made for the masses. Heaven help us if D-Day had been broadcast live on CNN.

I don?t get how people are defending this guy, Saddam. You are sadly mistaken if you think more people have been killed in this war, then have been killed by him. I have been in the city where he gassed the Kurds as part of his ?Aribization? process, and seen the memorial.

I have been in the training facilities where it was taught how to distribute chemicals as weapons. I have seen the shooting ranges where the targets where pictures of Jews made out to be devils. I am currently in the southern region where the people hate him just as much as the Kurds up north. I was here when the statues came down shortly after the invasion. I had never seen happier people in my life! They wanted to hug you, kiss you, give you the last bit of water they had.

I heard daily ?George Bush very very good? ? ?Saddam (then give the cut throat sign, and spit)? I can?t even keep track of the numbers of people that have told me Saddam had killed and/or tortured someone in their family. Don?t for a minute think that these people liked him, or willingly supported him.

This country is fucked up, and it isn?t because of the US and coalition. It?s because as a whole, they don?t have any Iraq loyalty. They really don?t care about borders; they care about what group of people you are part of. Are you a Kurd? Are you a Sunni? Are you a Shia? The list of militias here is longer then you can imagine.

The one thing they DO all have in common?. they want their particular group to be in charge. That?s where the violence comes in. As long as the coalition is here, these groups don?t get to bully/kill their way to the top. As soon as we leave, this place will erupt. It will be the civil war that everyone is hearing about.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Besides that, I am amazed that someone would look for ONE individual who they think wasn’t a slave while overlooking the thousands who were as if the exception was the norm. [/quote]

And I quote myself, “And besides, not all black colonials were slaves.” Where did I say it was the norm? That would be rather far from the truth eh? I just think this “my ancestors were slaves, so fuck everyone and their freedom” is rather childish. I recommend Daniel Morgan’s “American Slavery, American Freedom” for a background on the induction of slavery in Virginia. Race should maintain little to no place in our respect for what is right and wrong now in regards to liberty.

[quote]
Then why not back the fuck out of Iraq and let those people fight for their own freedom? We fought for ours. How is it your will is now substituted for their’s? [/quote]

Actually I do think we should withdrawl now. I really do not trust American politicians to pick a good guy to back as we have proven historically inept at it. I still believe the war was a good idea but now that they have got their gov’t installed I think we should pull out except for a small force dedicated soley to training their military and police forces.

I know in my time there we had way too many useless bodies there. Hell there was some stupid army broad there whose sole purpose was to yell at us for leaving our covers on the table in the chow hall. What the shit is that? Troops are dying on convoys in order to get the next supply of DVD’s in to the PX. If you are in a war zone your ass should be munching MRE’s and sleeping in a sleeping bag.

But very plainly, tell me where you think the Iraqis aren’t fighting for their own freedom. The average Iraqi soldier has twice the guts one of ours does. The odds of one of us dying is slim next to them, yet they join up in droves.

Also, despite whatever reasons the civil war was fought for, would you have advocated attacking the south beforehand with the sole purpose of freeing the slaves?

Mike

very impressed at the discussion! you all seem to see the war justified or not on the back of whether or not saddam’s regime abused human rights overly…
when the UK went to war it was on the understanding that there were WMDs in iraq and they were directly threatening us…
do you all accept human rights abuse as a legitimate reason for war? and if so, how do you respond to the US’s track record in the department? I dont mean that in an acusatory way, just genuinely curious?

[quote]Al168 wrote:
very impressed at the discussion! you all seem to see the war justified or not on the back of whether or not saddam’s regime abused human rights overly…
when the UK went to war it was on the understanding that there were WMDs in iraq and they were directly threatening us…
do you all accept human rights abuse as a legitimate reason for war? and if so, how do you respond to the US’s track record in the department? I dont mean that in an acusatory way, just genuinely curious?[/quote]

The UK and the US went to war for 20 reasons. One reason was the fear of WMDs.

Are you ignoring the rest?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Are you ignoring the rest?
[/quote]

ah, well my understanding of it is that - the uk at least - went to war (on the record) because of WMDs…

off the record there may have been many reasons but i was distinctly under the impression that, legally speaking, we went to war to remove a significant threat from WMDs…

[quote]Al168 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Are you ignoring the rest?

ah, well my understanding of it is that - the uk at least - went to war (on the record) because of WMDs…

off the record there may have been many reasons but i was distinctly under the impression that, legally speaking, we went to war to remove a significant threat from WMDs…[/quote]

While this was certainly the biggest reason and got the most airplay it was not the only reason given.

The 20 reasons given were posted here a number of times.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
While this was certainly the biggest reason and got the most airplay it was not the only reason given.

The 20 reasons given were posted here a number of times.[/quote]
ahah

I think this may just be disparity between the US and the UK, but I am prety sure that for the UK to go to war the “45 minute” claim was pretty crucial.

I would draw your attention to a couple of pages of the hansard debates:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo031022/debtext/31022-18.htm
and
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmhansrd/vo040204/debtext/40204-18.htm

I know, I know, its more reading but i’m sure you’ll get the jist skimming it and maybe see where i’m coming from?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
TRC wrote:
I am an American, I have watched it, and I don’t know the point you are trying to have shown.

I agree, I wish a lot of this was shown on the news. I think the world needs to be shown just how much Iraqi killing Iraqi is happening, or better yet, how much Muslim killing Muslim is happening. These people kill 100 times more of their own people then they do westerners.

The main reason Iraqi’s hate the coalition involvement, is because it gets in the way of all their different power struggles, their soon to be civil war. These people have no problem killing one another trying to get their positions of power.

I say put Sadam back in power. He was the only one that could control these people. Who cared if he routinely killed and tortured hundreds thousands of his own people. At least there was control.

In some way, I agree with this. Has our attempt at “freedom” caused less people to die than would have had we not invaded Iraq?[/quote]

Are the deaths of helpless people at the hand of a ruthless dictator, bent on genocide, the same as deaths of those trying to bring freedom from this kind of oppressive regime?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Al168 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Are you ignoring the rest?

ah, well my understanding of it is that - the uk at least - went to war (on the record) because of WMDs…

off the record there may have been many reasons but i was distinctly under the impression that, legally speaking, we went to war to remove a significant threat from WMDs…

While this was certainly the biggest reason and got the most airplay it was not the only reason given.

The 20 reasons given were posted here a number of times.[/quote]

I’m certainly not going to argue that other reasons were given in the run up to the war, but I think you are being misleading by saying that WMD was simply the one with the most airplay.

There were other reasons, but none of them were given as a sufficient cause for war, only other positive benefits of invasion.

Yes a lot of people thought that there were WMD stockpiles and had for more than a decade, but implying that the threat Iraqi WMD posed was not the central cause for war is revisionist.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

Are the deaths of helpless people at the hand of a ruthless dictator, bent on genocide, the same as deaths of those trying to bring freedom from this kind of oppressive regime?

[/quote]

Hmmm, let me know when they truly achieve a stable government that doesn’t need American aid to keep it from self destructing. Then we’ll know if we truly brought freedom. Saddam was an asshole and a murderer. No one is denying that. I asked a question based on human lives lost, period. We won’t know for sure just how much good we’ve done by going about this the way we did until the history books are written without current political bias.

There are “helpless people” dying all over the world, some of them in worse conditions than the Iraqis were. That is one reason I don’t put much weight on those comments acting as if our goal was truly “liberation”. To the average American screaming “war” when this started 5 years ago, this was about revenge, not saving the downtrodden.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

Are the deaths of helpless people at the hand of a ruthless dictator, bent on genocide, the same as deaths of those trying to bring freedom from this kind of oppressive regime?

Hmmm, let me know when they truly achieve a stable government that doesn’t need American aid to keep it from self destructing. Then we’ll know if we truly brought freedom. Saddam was an asshole and a murderer. No one is denying that. I asked a question based on human lives lost, period. We won’t know for sure just how much good we’ve done by going about this the way we did until the history books are written without current political bias.

There are “helpless people” dying all over the world, some of them in worse conditions than the Iraqis were. That is one reason I don’t put much weight on those comments acting as if our goal was truly “liberation”. To the average American screaming “war” when this started 5 years ago, this was about revenge, not saving the downtrodden.[/quote]

I agree that the motivation for this war was not clear from the administration in the beginning and most felt it was defense from further terrorists attacks (which has seemed to work) or revenge for 911.

However, having stated this some action needed to be taken. If we have the policy to help out other nations then we had to act. I know some would rather we stick to ourselves, but that attitude only lasts until we see people being killed by their own government on the evening news. Then it’s “this is a tragedy and we need to do something about it!”. So given how people in the US are motivated, it was just a matter of time until the PC view was that we should get involved.

I believe the real question is did we take the right approach? As you say, that is yet to be known, but if they come out the other end of this as a democratic society, it will be a win for the US and the world in terms of having one less Arab country producing terrorists; not to mention no more thousands or deaths at the hand of a dictator.