U.S. Atrocities

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Supporting a terrorist is supporting terrorism regardless of the motive for that support.[/quote]

No, its not.

God dammit.

Ok, let me try to frame this in a way you can relate to.

Lets say a priest is charged with molesting a child. You look at the case, and you honestly believe the man is innocent. However, he is convicted. After a while he is released from prison, and you attend a gathering based around supporting his release because you believe he didn’t do it.

Now, in that scenerio, would it be fair to say that you support pedophilia?

No. Of course not. Because to you, you are just supporting an innocent man being freed.

Do you get it yet? Maybe a little? Maybe?[/quote]

So you are saying that the Libyans reviewed the facts of the case?[/quote]

DD - your case shouldnt be hard to prove. Just read all those articles you posted, find quotes from the people celebrating, and post them here. If the quotes indicate that they believe he is guilty of the bombing, then you have a case that they support a terrorist.

It really, really shouldn’t be difficult.[/quote]

Actually, the same goes for your case. Prove they were there celebrating a man they thought was innocent.[/quote]

You’re really…reeeally bad at this.

You made a claim. I’m challenging your claim. You have the burden to back your claim up with evidence.[/quote]

Actually, no. This was my claim from my original post:

“The lockerbie bomber was calibrated as a hero.”

This is where you interjected the motive and rational behind the Libyan people:
“Are they celebrating because they think he is guilty or because they think he is innocent?”

The claim about motive was entirely yours.

42

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Supporting a terrorist is supporting terrorism regardless of the motive for that support.[/quote]

No, its not.

God dammit.

Ok, let me try to frame this in a way you can relate to.

Lets say a priest is charged with molesting a child. You look at the case, and you honestly believe the man is innocent. However, he is convicted. After a while he is released from prison, and you attend a gathering based around supporting his release because you believe he didn’t do it.

Now, in that scenerio, would it be fair to say that you support pedophilia?

No. Of course not. Because to you, you are just supporting an innocent man being freed.

Do you get it yet? Maybe a little? Maybe?[/quote]

So you are saying that the Libyans reviewed the facts of the case?[/quote]

DD - your case shouldnt be hard to prove. Just read all those articles you posted, find quotes from the people celebrating, and post them here. If the quotes indicate that they believe he is guilty of the bombing, then you have a case that they support a terrorist.

It really, really shouldn’t be difficult.[/quote]

Actually, the same goes for your case. Prove they were there celebrating a man they thought was innocent.[/quote]

You’re really…reeeally bad at this.

You made a claim. I’m challenging your claim. You have the burden to back your claim up with evidence.[/quote]

Actually, no. This was my claim from my original post:

“The lockerbie bomber was calibrated as a hero.”

This is where you interjected the motive and rational behind the Libyan people:
“Are they celebrating because they think he is guilty or because they think he is innocent?”

The claim about motive was entirely yours.

[/quote]

Thats not a claim about motive, thats a question about motive.

So bad at this.

43

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Supporting a terrorist is supporting terrorism regardless of the motive for that support.[/quote]

No, its not.

God dammit.

Ok, let me try to frame this in a way you can relate to.

Lets say a priest is charged with molesting a child. You look at the case, and you honestly believe the man is innocent. However, he is convicted. After a while he is released from prison, and you attend a gathering based around supporting his release because you believe he didn’t do it.

Now, in that scenerio, would it be fair to say that you support pedophilia?

No. Of course not. Because to you, you are just supporting an innocent man being freed.

Do you get it yet? Maybe a little? Maybe?[/quote]

So you are saying that the Libyans reviewed the facts of the case?[/quote]

DD - your case shouldnt be hard to prove. Just read all those articles you posted, find quotes from the people celebrating, and post them here. If the quotes indicate that they believe he is guilty of the bombing, then you have a case that they support a terrorist.

It really, really shouldn’t be difficult.[/quote]

Actually, the same goes for your case. Prove they were there celebrating a man they thought was innocent.[/quote]

You’re really…reeeally bad at this.

You made a claim. I’m challenging your claim. You have the burden to back your claim up with evidence.[/quote]

Actually, no. This was my claim from my original post:

“The lockerbie bomber was calibrated as a hero.”

This is where you interjected the motive and rational behind the Libyan people:
“Are they celebrating because they think he is guilty or because they think he is innocent?”

The claim about motive was entirely yours.

[/quote]

Thats not a claim about motive, thats a question about motive.

So bad at this.[/quote]

LOL. no. My claim had nothing to do with motive. You interjected it. I made the point that it is impossible to know either way and even amended my statement to specifically reference that.

If in all these references you’ve made to motive, you aren’t claiming to know anything, then why are you continually referencing and interjecting something that you aren’t making a claim about? Especially, when none of it in any way effects my original claim, as I’ve pointed out.

44

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

LOL. no. My claim had nothing to do with motive. You interjected it. I made the point that it is impossible to know either way and even amended my statement to specifically reference that.

If in all these references you’ve made to motive, you aren’t claiming to know anything, then why are you continually referencing and interjecting something that you aren’t making a claim about? Especially, when none of it in any way effects my original claim, as I’ve pointed out.[/quote]

Was your statement -

“The lockerbie bomber was calibrated as a hero.”

intended to lead to the claim (or be supportive evidence of the claim) that

“Muslims support terrorism”

?

45

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

LOL. no. My claim had nothing to do with motive. You interjected it. I made the point that it is impossible to know either way and even amended my statement to specifically reference that.

If in all these references you’ve made to motive, you aren’t claiming to know anything, then why are you continually referencing and interjecting something that you aren’t making a claim about? Especially, when none of it in any way effects my original claim, as I’ve pointed out.[/quote]

Was your statement -

“The lockerbie bomber was calibrated as a hero.”

intended to lead to the claim (or be supportive evidence of the claim) that

“Muslims support terrorism”

?[/quote]

No.

It was to illustrate the contrast in treatment. On trial facing death vs. treated as royalty. As originally stated in my post.

46

Here is my claim:

IF Libyans celebrated his release because they think he is guility, then they are showing support for terrorism, and this is morally impermissible.

IF Libyans celebrated his release because they think he is innocent and was wrongfully convicted, they are NOT, by celebrating his release, showing support for terrorism - they are showing support for a man they believe is innocent, and the celebrations are still in bad taste and insensitive to the victims of the attack.

47

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

LOL. no. My claim had nothing to do with motive. You interjected it. I made the point that it is impossible to know either way and even amended my statement to specifically reference that.

If in all these references you’ve made to motive, you aren’t claiming to know anything, then why are you continually referencing and interjecting something that you aren’t making a claim about? Especially, when none of it in any way effects my original claim, as I’ve pointed out.[/quote]

Was your statement -

“The lockerbie bomber was calibrated as a hero.”

intended to lead to the claim (or be supportive evidence of the claim) that

“Muslims support terrorism”

?[/quote]

No.

It was to illustrate the contrast in treatment. On trial facing death vs. treated as royalty. As originally stated in my post.[/quote]

So you believe he would have recieved the same “hero’s welcome” had he never spent those years in jail, and regardless of Libyans beliefs w/r/t his innocence or guilt?

48

Also, DD, I apologize for misinterpreting your statement.

49

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Here is my claim:

IF Libyans celebrated his release because they think he is guility, then they are showing support for terrorism, and this is morally impermissible.

IF Libyans celebrated his release because they think he is innocent and was wrongfully convicted, they are NOT, by celebrating his release, showing support for terrorism - they are showing support for a man they believe is innocent, and the celebrations are still in bad taste and insensitive to the victims of the attack.[/quote]

Should he not then be tried?

But in either case, it was a terrible thing for them to do.

BUT they were still supporting terrorism. They managed to pull off getting the guy out of jail and returned home. Do you think this somehow doesn’t support and encourage other bombers because they might think him innocent? Like I said before it’s still supporting terrorism, it just might be out of ignorance rather than direct intent.

But also unless you are going to support the notion that they thought him innocent, we must also acknowledge they may have thought he was the poo deity and therefor innocent on grounds of holiness.

50

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

LOL. no. My claim had nothing to do with motive. You interjected it. I made the point that it is impossible to know either way and even amended my statement to specifically reference that.

If in all these references you’ve made to motive, you aren’t claiming to know anything, then why are you continually referencing and interjecting something that you aren’t making a claim about? Especially, when none of it in any way effects my original claim, as I’ve pointed out.[/quote]

Was your statement -

“The lockerbie bomber was calibrated as a hero.”

intended to lead to the claim (or be supportive evidence of the claim) that

“Muslims support terrorism”

?[/quote]

No.

It was to illustrate the contrast in treatment. On trial facing death vs. treated as royalty. As originally stated in my post.[/quote]

So you believe he would have recieved the same “hero’s welcome” had he never spent those years in jail, and regardless of Libyans beliefs w/r/t his innocence or guilt?[/quote]

I can’t know either way. I believe there was probably a mixture of motivations.

51

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/white-house-backed-release-of-lockerbie-bomber-abdel-baset-al-megrahi/story-e6frg6so-1225896741041

“They” managed to pull off getting the guy out of jail and returned home.

“It claimed this would flout a decade-old agreement between Britain and the US that anyone convicted of the bombing would serve their sentence in a Scottish prison. Megrahi was released by Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill on the grounds that he had three months to live, making his sentence effectively spent.”

Clearly, by “they”, you mean the Scots, yeah?

52

Trust me cap, I’m not a huge fan of the US military. I don’t worship someone just because they have a uniform. BUT there is no moral equivalence between our military and what goes on in the middle east.

Yes, the US and it’s military do bad things I’m fully open to acknowledging and discussing that, but the parallels people draw to suicide bombers and terrorists is ridiculous.

As for this incident, it’s possible there could be some updates to procedure or something to try and prevent this from happening again, but as far as I can tell, they caught the guys and are appropriately dealing with them. I don’t see that the US or the military did anything wrong.

53

“In the wake of the sole convicted Lockerbie bomberâ??s return to a heroâ??s welcome in Tripoli, questions intensified in Britain on Friday as to whether lucrative Libyan oil contracts were as much a factor in his release as compassion for a dying man.”

They bartered with oil.

54

Subject: City Councilman Ejected

T. Bubba Bechtol, part time City Councilman from Pensacola, Florida, was asked on a local live radio talk show the other day just what he thought of the allegations of torture of the Iraqi prisoners. His reply prompted his ejection from the studio, but to thunderous applause from the audience.

"If hooking up an Iraqi prisoner’s scrotum to a car’s battery cables will save one American GI’s life, then I have just two things to say:

“Red is positive, black is negative”

Comments: True, sort of. A quick Google search reveals that there is a T. Bubba Bechtol, that he lives in Pensacola, Florida, and that he did make public comments resembling the above.

Mr. Bechtol is not, however â?? nor has he ever been â?? a city councilman, “part-time” or otherwise; he’s an entertainer, self-described on his Website as a stand-up comic/recording artist.

On his Weblog, Bechtol says he made the statement during a July 2004 performance, “and radio has picked it up and ran with it.” His words were transcribed into an email towards the end of August and have circulated on the Internet ever since.

“Yes, I said it,” writes Bechtol. “No, I’m not sorry I said it and I meant every word of it and I will continue to use it in my show when appropriate. It is exactly how I feel.”

I’m sure there is more evidence of Americans supporting “bad” things, on equal keel with those Libyans celebrating the lockerbie bombers release.

55

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
“In the wake of the sole convicted Lockerbie bomberâ??s return to a heroâ??s welcome in Tripoli, questions intensified in Britain on Friday as to whether lucrative Libyan oil contracts were as much a factor in his release as compassion for a dying man.”

They bartered with oil.[/quote]

Oh come on now, you don’t think our involvement in the middle east has anything to do with oil, do you?

56

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Subject: City Councilman Ejected

T. Bubba Bechtol, part time City Councilman from Pensacola, Florida, was asked on a local live radio talk show the other day just what he thought of the allegations of torture of the Iraqi prisoners. His reply prompted his ejection from the studio, but to thunderous applause from the audience.

"If hooking up an Iraqi prisoner’s scrotum to a car’s battery cables will save one American GI’s life, then I have just two things to say:

“Red is positive, black is negative”

Comments: True, sort of. A quick Google search reveals that there is a T. Bubba Bechtol, that he lives in Pensacola, Florida, and that he did make public comments resembling the above.

Mr. Bechtol is not, however â?? nor has he ever been â?? a city councilman, “part-time” or otherwise; he’s an entertainer, self-described on his Website as a stand-up comic/recording artist.

On his Weblog, Bechtol says he made the statement during a July 2004 performance, “and radio has picked it up and ran with it.” His words were transcribed into an email towards the end of August and have circulated on the Internet ever since.

“Yes, I said it,” writes Bechtol. “No, I’m not sorry I said it and I meant every word of it and I will continue to use it in my show when appropriate. It is exactly how I feel.”

I’m sure there is more evidence of Americans supporting “bad” things, on equal keel with those Libyans celebrating the lockerbie bombers release.[/quote]

Better example, for my stance on that issue see the torture threads. I’ve adamantly argued that doing things like water boarding makes us no different than them.

57

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Unbelievable that there is a difference between celebrating the release of a murderer and celebrating the release of an innocent man wrongfully convicted?

Yeah, I’m a clown. Gotcha.[/quote]

Can you prove he was an innocent man.

Link?

58

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[/quote]

Unbelievable that there is a difference between celebrating the release of a murderer and celebrating the release of an innocent man wrongfully convicted?

Yeah, I’m a clown. Gotcha.[/quote]

Can you prove he was an innocent man.

Link?[/quote]

I can’t prove it but there is very interesting research done by a UK journalist which comes to the conclusion that it was not Megrahi

http://www.i-p-o.org/private-eye.htm

it’s available on pirate bay to torrent if you’re interested

59

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

LOL. no. My claim had nothing to do with motive. You interjected it. I made the point that it is impossible to know either way and even amended my statement to specifically reference that.

If in all these references you’ve made to motive, you aren’t claiming to know anything, then why are you continually referencing and interjecting something that you aren’t making a claim about? Especially, when none of it in any way effects my original claim, as I’ve pointed out.[/quote]

Was your statement -

“The lockerbie bomber was calibrated as a hero.”

intended to lead to the claim (or be supportive evidence of the claim) that

“Muslims support terrorism”

?[/quote]

The term “calibrated as a hero” really does it for me.

I think it should have meant celebrated, but calibrating heroes is actually awesome.

I think most “heroes” were calibrated thoroughly.

60

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Unbelievable that there is a difference between celebrating the release of a murderer and celebrating the release of an innocent man wrongfully convicted?

Yeah, I’m a clown. Gotcha.[/quote]

Can you prove he was an innocent man.

Link?[/quote]

You completely missed my point. I’m not going through it again.