@jewbaca @loppar
How much of this new investigation stuff in ukraine is going to be the pro-ukranian independence government going against the former pro-Russian government and their allies?
No he didn’t, read the WH transcript. Trump brought it up.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Unclassified09.2019.pdf
Zero, as both governments in question were pro-Western. The one before these two was pro-Russian. And even that pro-Russian (Yanukovich) campaigned and won in 2012 on a pro-Western platform at the advice of his campaign manager, a certain Paul Manafort.
No, that are frenzied fantasies. You are a smart guy, why do you get your news from crazy sources?
It’s worth considering the Ukrainian perspective on the call:
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An explicit QPQ isnt necessary for this to be problematic for Trump. The flavor of Trump’s phone call is two things: one, he’s pursuing personal favors, not strategic on behalf of the US. And two, he lays a foundation of how much the US helps the Ukraine prior to his ask. That’s obviously a problem.
Sleazy businessmen don’t lay out explicit “smoking gun” QPQs, that’s commonly understood - and people don’t need for them to to believe there was a carrot-and-stick arrangement in exchange for a favor.
This “exoneration” of Trump by Trumpkins because he didnt expressly say “investigate my political rival or say goodbye to your money!” on the phone call is silly.
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Wouldn’t change anything for the diehards. They would just say “well he should be investigated” or some such noise.
…or Gangsters and Thugs…
I’m just reading the affidavit of the prosecutor from the court case.
Paragraphs 6-12
“The truth is that I was forced out because I was leading a wide-ranging corruption probe into Burisma Holdings, a natural gas firm active in Ukraine and Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, was a member of the Board of Directors. . . .
On several occasions President Poroshenko asked me to have a look at the case against Burisma and consider the possibility of winding down the investigative actions in respect of this company but I refused to close this investigation."
Obviously, the former prosecutor could be lying. But these are direct allegations of improper use of government position and bear investigation.
One fact you also got wrong that can be confirmed by simply looking at the docket sheet is the case was pending at the time the prosecutor was fired. (It was closed January 2017; the firing was March 2016.)
I love the double standard.
Quid Pro Joe is on video tape admitting to a quid pro quo of holding US taxpayer money back unless a prosecutor is fired. (Said firing occurs in March 2016.)
The prosecutor had a case that was pending until January 2017 again Biden’s son’s company. (Misleading MSM reports to the contrary nothwithstanding; go look at the record.)
The prosecutor provides a sworn statement that he was pressured to drop the case against the company because of Biden, refused, and was thus fired.
And yet, to hyper-partisan Democrats, there is nothing to see.
It’s really pathetic.
I’m game for Trump’s removal. Hell, the USA is not even my country. But this is just sad.
Do you know who’s the “DF” the prosecutor constantly refers to in the affidavit and from whose court filings this statement comes from? It’s Dmitry Firtash, a buddy of Semion Mogilevich. And of course, Manafort’s client.
After Trump’s election Firtash was trying to position himself in Austrian courts as a innocent philanthropist who was the victim of evil Democrats, hoping that the new administration will be more sympathetic to his supposed plight and stop asking for extradition.
During his extradition fights he called on his old mafia friends in Kyiv to submit affidavits mentioning everyone and everything in order to stave of extradition. Shokin’s bullshit statement you’ve linked to is one of those. Honestly, the only thing missing in the affidavit is “Hillary wants to start WW3”.
Firtash was arrested in Austria in 2014 and has been fighting extradition to the U.S. ever since. Russian billionaire Vasily Anisimov, a business partner of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s close ally Arkady Rotenberg, helped Firtash pay a $172 million bail bond to be freed from prison. But he was prohibited from leaving Austria as the extradition case was pursued in court.
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So what?
That had zero to with the quid pro quo.
I haven’t mentioned Trump.
You quoted the prosecutor’s statement as proof of Biden’s involvement.
I said it’s a statement from a deeply corrupt individual who owed favor to a business partner of the boss of bosses of the Russian mafia who was fighting extradition to the US in court.
If we ignore the Biden stuff in the affidavit for a second, it’s comically laughable - Firtash is portrayed as an innocent philanthropist who was targeted by evil Joe Biden and the Obama administration.
For anyone familiar with the individuals involved it’s laughable, but makes great talking points on FOX if you don’t know who these people are.
“We have a written affidavit from mr. Luciano who claims to have been persecuted by the Roosevelt administration solely because of his Sicilian heritage”
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I don’t care if anyone wants to pursue Biden over this, be my guest, doesn’t bug me (though I don’t think your rendition is 100% accurate) - but Trump has had every opportunity to investigate Biden for violations and elected not to. Democrats may not care about Biden’s actions, but more importantly, neither do Republicans.
You know, until now.
The current scandal? No. The issues raised in the whistleblower complaint are real and worthy of investigation. Maybe Trump gets exonerated after all the facts are in, who knows - but these are troubling and deserve running down.
But that’s the problem with Trumpkins - there’s never a credible allegation against Trump. Ever. No matter how fishy something is, no matter how bad it looks in view of common sense - no, nope, no way. How hard wpuld it be for a Trumpkin to concede the obvious and say “yeah, that whole thing appears shady - the timing of the withholding of funds, the obvious request of personal favors. But we need to hear the whole story before we make up our mind.”?
Instead, here we have the sleaziest businessman in the history of New York real estate predictably appearing to do some sleazy business things, and Trumpkins insist there’s nothing troubling at all, it’s all a political witch hunt?
That’s what’s pathetic.
It is, but for reasons different than you think.
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Of please, go read the first post. Or any post I made regarding this prosecutor. I have no great love for him.
Unfortunately, in criminal matters the witnesses are usually scum bags.
I have no idea if his allegations are true.
It’s more than enough, however, to be a predicate for an investigation.
Well, an investigation of a normal person, I mean. If someone wants to investigate a Democrat because of plausible allegations, it’s impeachable! Why, the injustice!
Investigations should be based on things like Adam Schiff who today decided he didn’t need to read the transcript— he just knew Trump did something bad!
And that’s the crazy level of Trump hatred.
Oh, and one other point. Republicans and “conservatives” have forfeited the right to accuse the other side ir anyone of double standards. Never again, never, never, never, never, ever can they credibly cry foul that the Left, liberals, etc. are engaging in a double standard. Never, ever.
They’ve gutted and abandoned virtually cardinal principle they claimed sacred in support of Trump - family values, fiscal conservatism, constitutionalism, separation of powers, country over party, you name it.
Never.
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Uh oh, you’ve now committed a high crime and misdemeanor! You’ve agreed that Biden’s shady conduct is worthy of investigation!
Which is the entirety of the “whistleblower’s” complaint!
How dare you agree that Biden might be shady!? You must be impeached! To admit a Democrat might have done something dirty is a criminal act! Bring back the gallows!
Dude, you’re mixing apples and oranges here. I have no idea what Hunter Biden did and whether he’s guilty for something, but the line pushed by Trumpkins (and Trump himself) about the Prosecutor and Biden is complete bullshit, as anyone who ever knew anything about Ukrainian politics could attest.
But as I said, it makes for great talking points when a whataboutist counter narrative is woven Pravda style on Fox if you have no idea who these people are.
There’s this prosecutor who was fired because he was investigating Hunter Biden and the president…
No, if someone wants his personal attorney and acting AG to coordinate an investigation of a political opponent with a country at war depended on American political and military support.
You have no idea how damaging this is for US foreign policy, as many allies face a nightmare scenario of being dragged into domestic US political infighting. The informal US empire was perceived as a more or less benevolent monolith if you pay your dues - you buy enough weapons, run your foreign policy and major government tenders with the Embassy and you’re good.
Now, because of “I hate it because Obama did it” anything may happen.
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Which shady conduct exactly? Because you’ve already hardwired a fake soundbite from FOX alleging “shady” behavior.
He called for a resignation of a corrupt official, after ambassadors from all EU countries have been asking the same for over a year. The same goes for IMF.
But since it was the VP, the combined pressure worked and the guy was fired. And Creepy Joe did this at the behest of the State Department.
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Yawn. Get serious.
Tell me - if investigating Biden in Ukraine is a matter of strategic importance for the US, why has getting Ukraine to do it been outsourced offline to Trump’s personal lawyer, who has no portfolio at State and has no authority to speak on behalf or bind the US?
This tango has been happening for months - why is Giuliani - who is paid to serve Trump’s personal interests - trying to persuade Ukrainian brass to investigate Biden?
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Forcing the resignation of a official, who corrupt or not, had a very serious pending investigation against his drug-addled son.
And, yes, pending. Again, you were incorrect that the investigation was concluded. It ceased January 2017, after Snortie Joe’s and State Department lawyers had multiple meetings with the new prosecutor.
And no, none of this is from Fox News. It’s all part of the transcript of the prosecutor’s lawsuit for wrongful termination. Go read the case. The file is online. Most of it is in English.
Well, as the citizen of a foreign country, sadly I do.
Plausible allegations that Joe Biden used US taxpayer money as a carrot to get what he wanted personally fills EXACTLY what most of us think about US politicians, both parties.
Yeah this times 100. Trump spits in the face of everything they claimed was important to them. I’m not sure what Republicans pretend to be for now. Just whatever Trump is for. If he says he hates America tomorrow by God they will hate it as well. They are the party of “so this is what we’re doing now apparently.”
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