Update:
New blood test results today
Test was 774 Hign normal for lab was 800.
I have been taking liquidex for 5 weeks my E was 74 at the start, today it was 30!
I think I may back off the Liquidex dosing to 4 drops EOD from 6. I dont want to bring my E much lower. You all agree?
[quote]RhodeIslander wrote:
Update:
New blood test results today
Test was 774 Hign normal for lab was 800.
I have been taking liquidex for 5 weeks my E was 74 at the start, today it was 30!
I think I may back off the Liquidex dosing to 4 drops EOD from 6. I dont want to bring my E much lower. You all agree?[/quote]
The half life of adex is 50 hours. By day 15 of your starting dosage, the biggest reduction in blood levels occurred by then.
30 is a good number, and if by day 60 if your E2 level was going to bottom out any further, chances are it would have already.
By the month, you’re at 1/2 mg week now (basically) if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But, if in a month or so you feel “different” or worse, or your joints ache, that’s a different story completely, and dosage adjustment will possibly be in order then.
Is dropping to 30 from 74 extreme? When should I see a physical effect? I’m not noticing any fat loss. I have added more cardio, very good with diet. I guess i’m looking for real world result from other here that have done some of the same things im doing.
Thanks, I’ll keep my current levels.
E2=30 is neither here or there. If you want the benefits of low-normal E2 you need to aim for the low 20s. You are taking .7mg/wk now, try 1.0/wk. Obvious changes in fat and fat deposit patterns take time. If you change your hormone status, things will change.
With lower E2 levels you will have [my terminology] ‘drier’ emotions. Joint aches from low E typically result from E2 levels that are way below 20pg/ml. If such symptoms occur, simply adjust your dose.
With E2 in the lower 20’s you can expect to feel a boost in libido. If a dose is way too much and E2 is very low, libido is lost. Libido is a good fast acting guide.
It is good to feel a dose change. The longer half life of anastrozole will make the change slower to happen. Try a 1/4mg extra bump dose on top of a current dose then begin the adjusted dose EOD after. Note changes.
Most people using a 1/2 inch needle are injecting Sub-Cutainious. The skin is increadibly thick unless you are really lean. I’m not. Even skinny people will have alot of subcutainious tissue between the skin and muscle that even a 1/2 inch needle will be a bit short. I am glad someone studied this and now it’s a viable option.
Sometimes if dosing 3 times a week I will use a 1/2 inch needle for smaller doses. If my shedule doesnt allow 3 times a week but only 2 times a week, then I use the 27gu 1 1/4.
When Injecting I like to rotate the skin, insert the needle, draw back to ensure I’m not in a blood vessle, inject, remove needle, and then let the skin return to it’s normal position. This rotation moves the needle enterence hole from the location of the injected Test Cyp and doesnt allow it to leak back out.
I have also noticed that if after I remove all the air from my syring if I leave a small drop of the Test Cyp at the top of the needle that I have less needle insertion sting. Seems to me it lubricates the needle as it passes through the skin.
When I clean my skin I wait until the alcohol has totally evaporated. If you inject while wet the needle will drag the alcohol with it and increase the sting.
Chewman
Many of us need a logical argument set out that enables a helpful doctor to include hcG in the HRT protocol.
In other posts Ksman has clearly outlined the biochemistry of hcG inclusion in the HRT protocol.
My helpful doctor said yes " but before I put you on hcG , I need to research the long term consequences of hcG taken for what might be the rest of your life.
Ksman has written a PM for which I can never repay. He will publish his PM in response to this post.
This is rather easy. TRT shuts off LH, adding hCG is simply hormone replacement. The hCG molecule has alpha and beta subunits… think if these as lobes. Both are active hormones.
The alpha subunit is essentially identical to alpha subunit of LH and it activates LH receptors. The hormone FSH also has an identical subunit… wait there is more, also identical to the alpha subunit of TSH. This seems to be a pattern. What differentiates these molecules is their beta subunits.
The product literature states: “The action hCG is virtually identical to that of pituitary LH, although hCG does appear to have a small degree of FSH activity.” Women produce hCG and LH as part of their natural ovulation cycles.
hCG is a natural hormone and using it is simply HRT… simple. If LH was affordable, we would use that. But LS is an extremely expensive hormone and seems to be restricted to research works. As hCG is cheap and effective, there is no financial motive for a pharmaceutical company to mass produce LH.
The huge doses of hCG that have been used on women and men for fertility work demonstrate that it causes no harm. Women have hCG in their systems most of their lives and the hCG levels when pregnant are very very high. Males are exposed to such high levels of hCG in the womb… apparently without harm. Note that baby boys have red and enlarged genitalia when born. Now you know why.
The product literature in North America has a section for use in males. The dose referenced are way to high.
The low dose 250iu EOD is shown by research to have the same affect on the testes as baseline LH, as measured by ITT, intratesticular testosterone. So we know that the dosing is a normal level from a HRT objective point of view. Thus we also know that the only known mode of harm is avoided. It is known that large dosing for a prolonged period of time will down regulate the LH receptors.
What happens if you down regulate the LH receptors? LH/hCG then does not work as well or the testes become non responsive. What happens if the testes become non responsive? They shrink in the exact same fashion of LH shutdown… using TRT without hCG.
The objective of TRT is not just a “high normal” T level, but HRT. It is inconsistent with the objectives of HRT to not use hCG.
When the testes lack LH or hCG and shrink, the scrotum pulls up tight, looking like a prepubescent boy. This is harmful to ones’ sexual image to wives or GF and they can be affected. It is also harmful to ones sexual self-image. With testicular shutdown, pregnenolone levels drop which then leads to lower DHEA levels. A good HRT Doctor should be checking for DHEA-s and pregnenolone and scripting these as orals or transdermals if low. In the USA, both items are on the shelf along with Vitamins. Not a controlled substance as there [Down Under], the UK and Canada.
The use of hCG in this fashion has long been established by Doctors who understand the big picture. Inducing a LH shutdown is harmful in several aspects, including a loss of fertility, which can be permanent and not recovered later on with hCG. Not using hCG with TRT harms the patient. However, finding a Doctor who understands these issues is very difficult, they simply do not get training for that. The drug reps have no finacial interest in detailing this usage, as there is more money to be made detailing non-generic drugs.
Many doctors did not blink prescribing insulin, another peptide hormone derived from pigs or cows, it was accepted practice. Once a doctor gets comfortable with the practice the situation changes.
There is no reason to cycle off of or reduce a hormone that is replaced in an HRT fashion. No more that a normal young male is needing to have his LH, HG, TSH, insulin peptide hormones reduced or shut off.
There are 1500iu’s of hCG per mg.
You will use 45,625 iu per year, (250iu * 365/2).
That is .0833 mg/day or 83 micrograms per day.
Compare hCG levels of a normal male <5 to first trimester of pregnancy… no comparison at all. hCG does not kill women, but is though to be the cause of morning sickness.
You will use 4.5 10,000iu vials per year.
Inject SC, not IM. ← the research was done SC
You can add BA water to get 2000iu/ml instead of 1000 iu/ml, and you can inject 12.5 [insulin] units with a .5ml insulin syringe. I load one with .5ml and that is good for 4 injections, swab the needle and return to refrigeration. Diabetes do this sort of thing all the time with SC injections an do not have any problems - assuming that their immune system is functional. You cannot expect to have a doctor or nurse approve of syringe re-use like this… Doctors, at least here, are always looking over their shoulders about getting sued for one thing or another.
You never want hCG in ampules, those are for women taking all of the contents in one injection, IM, to induce ovulation for egg harvesting for IVF. You need the rubber stopper multi-dose vial.
You will need some larger syringes to transfer the BA water unto the hCG vial. A 2.5 or 3ml syringe works well, with a #22 or #23 needle.
When you add the water, swirl gently, never shake. Inject the water into the vial, slowly, running down the side of the vial. Refrigerate.
Some hCG packaging lists shorter active life after adding water. This can be ignored. The product will be fine for 80 days after reconstitution [for 10,000iu vials].
Please print this or email to your Doctor.
Where’s the Reps++ button?
KSman is awesome!
Hi all. I have been following this thread and have just received another set of labs from a pretty arrogant doctor who is a specialist in Boston. I still feel railroaded on the testosterone train. My total T is around 500, but my free T is down to 10.8. Crazy.
My question at this point is: Is there anyone on this forum who has found a good and sympathetic doctor in the Boston Area ?
KSMAN has pointed me to this link
You can find other doc here:
http://www.worldhealth.net/p/5…
But I was wondering if anyone has been treated by, or had reports of a specific doctor or clinic in the Boston area where they did not have to do battle to get reasonable treatment.
I need to switch doctors.
PM or post in this forum if you can help would be really appreciated. This is such a battle to get thoughtful treatment !
Thanks folks
Kinda new to this and i am having a hard time figuring out where to get arimidex or liquidex. I know i get get it from reserch companies, but not sure which ones are legit. Anyone know of any legit company’s to buy it from? Little nervous about ordering over the internet anyway.
[quote]Jackson2130 wrote:
Kinda new to this and i am having a hard time figuring out where to get arimidex or liquidex. I know i get get it from reserch companies, but not sure which ones are legit. Anyone know of any legit company’s to buy it from? Little nervous about ordering over the internet anyway. [/quote]
There are lots of legit sources for liquid adex.
I use chemoneresearch.com. So do many others on this site…
KNB
October 07 November 07 March 6 08 March 13 08
Total T 424 ( 250-1100) 508 (241-827) 522 (300-1000) 382 (241-1100)
Free T 38.1 (46-224) 78 (50-200) 10.8 (10.0 - 55.0) 36.6 (46-224)
BioAT 70.4 (110-575)
SHBG 56 (18-47) 52 50 48
Prolactin 8.3 (2.0 - 18) 7.9 8.2 8.6
LH 3.7 (1.5-9.3) 8.4 6.2
FSH 12.5 (1.7-11.2)
TSH 1.7 (.40 - 4.5) 1.4 1.6 1.3
PSA 0.4(0.0-4.4) 0.6
Estradiol 49.1(20 - 75) 37 (0-52)
Looking for Advice again…
I am 54 years old and I live in Boston MA. I’m not a body builder and have never done a cycle.
I have been struggling for a year with low energy, no libido, no erections. I have been to several doctors in Boston and I am feeling railroaded on the the Testosterone train.
My Drs. want me on 10mg of Testim a day. I have convinced myself that if I do that I will:
1.) Be permanently shut down
2.) Have no testicles
3.) Won’t have any more libido because I am afraid that it will just all turn into Estrogen.
These are 4 sets of labs (everyone didn’t measure everything each time.)
My most current doctor wants me to take the 10mg of Androgel by itself for 6 weeks before he will look at labs and then consider whether or not I need to add some kind of anti-estrogen.
I cant help feeling like this is a bad move. I keep hearing about T + AI + Hcg as the way to go, but honestly I dont have the confidence to know whether or not my labs warrant this, or if I REALLY will get my libido back if I take the Testim.
ANY thoughtful opinions would be really appreciated.
I really miss my old dirty mind and morning wood !
I take EMSAM (Selegiline) for depression, but I think the real problem is low T.
I have an attachment with 4 set of labs if anyone has any ideas. The most recent doc, who I saw today would not consider any of the information that I was able to get from this site and is basically saying it is Testim…take it or leave it.
I have attached the lab results if anyone is kind enough to take a look and give some hope around this. thanks !
I really can’t read the “copy” but in your previous post with numbers there are explanations available:
Your Free T, total T, and BA T are down. Your SHBG is high, and your E2 is high.
Possible answer to total down; you may not be absorbing T like you were before, but the complication is all your T is bound up as SHBG, and E2. No wonder you lost your wood and dirty mind. It is chemically unavailable to you now.
A good start would be to get on an AI yourself, because your doc doesn’t look like he’s will to help there. After you stop the aromitization of T to E2, you will feel better, your E2 will come down and your SHBG will come down thereby freeing up your morning woodies again. And most likely freeing you of the depression too.
Unless you get on HCG, your boys will shrink and stay way too. Just hope they don’t also ache like mine did…
IMHO, if you get on adex, your life will change for the better because you will feel manly again with the dirty mind and morning wood too.
I realize I didn’t answer all your questions, but after getting your T back as Free T, and BioAT, you will feel better and then you can work on the rest of the blood test results.
PM if you want.
hello guys…I have TEST ENANTHATE…200MG’S shot…whats the smallest needle you guys have used ? the doc gave me 3ml 23 G1 very big compared to the B-12 injections I do
(insulin needles)
Im trying to find a smaller needle…and where do most of you inject ? I did my 1st in my quad…my 2nd is comming up…thank you guys…
I use 25g X 1" 1ml syringes. T-Enth, and T-Cyp, are both in cottonseed oil I believe, as well as having the same basic half-life. I inject in my glutes because the one time I tried my quads, it was really painful.
I wouldn’t inject all 200mg’s at once, break it into 100mg or even 50mg shots spaced throughout the week.
Ok,
This is what I fugured would happen. I finally got to 723 free T and was feeling great. My Dr calls and said, 723 is too high, reduce dose to .40ml weekly. I was at .50 or 1/2ml. This is week 3 at that level and one day before my sceduled shot and I felt like crap for the past 3 days. Horrible today, moody, no energy no morning erection. WTF, why can’t we just leave well enough alone? Now I know why people buy this stuff black market and self medicate.
Here is a funny view on all this:
My wife says" Well if you have a vagina, and wanted to be a boy, they would be tripping over themselves to give you all the Test you wanted and maybe go on Oprah."
She is right, whats up with that? I just want to feel good, not become a different gender? I get all this flak just for trying to feel OK?
Sorry for the rant, I’m just very pissed off, after feeling so good for so long.
1" #25 3ml would work well, ditto for 1ml. Capacity of the needle can also be about what is big enough to work with, including aspiration. If you have big hands or fingers, the smaller ones might not be the best.
Get some of the 1" #25s and try them. Whatever is works best for you is the right one.
If skin is thin, no need to sink it deeper that 3/4"
When did you get your lab work done? 3.5 days after your last injection? Important!!
Is your doctor mixing up FT and TT ranges?
FT: 7.2 - 24 pg/ml
TT: 700-1100 ng/dl is optimal [241-827 LabCorp range]
Is the original lab report seen or a med office transcription?
Often when the lab numbers are greatly unexpected, there is a lab error and there should be a retest.
Please post your labs with units and ranges. Get the original data from the lab. Get and keep copies of all lab work.
If you hit a vein with an injection, serum levels could be very bogus.
[quote]RhodeIslander wrote:
Ok,
This is what I fugured would happen. I finally got to 723 free T and was feeling great. My Dr calls and said, 723 is too high, reduce dose to .40ml weekly. I was at .50 or 1/2ml. This is week 3 at that level and one day before my sceduled shot and I felt like crap for the past 3 days. Horrible today, moody, no energy no morning erection. WTF, why can’t we just leave well enough alone? Now I know why people buy this stuff black market and self medicate.
Here is a funny view on all this:
My wife says" Well if you have a vagina, and wanted to be a boy, they would be tripping over themselves to give you all the Test you wanted and maybe go on Oprah."
She is right, whats up with that? I just want to feel good, not become a different gender? I get all this flak just for trying to feel OK?
Sorry for the rant, I’m just very pissed off, after feeling so good for so long.[/quote]
[quote]KNB wrote:
I use 25g X 1" 1ml syringes. T-Enth, and T-Cyp, are both in cottonseed oil I believe, as well as having the same basic half-life. I inject in my glutes because the one time I tried my quads, it was really painful.
I wouldn’t inject all 200mg’s at once, break it into 100mg or even 50mg shots spaced throughout the week.[/quote]
Did you do the quads in the front outer quadrant? Never elsewhere. Muscles hardly feel the needle at all. So you must have found a nerve or vein. Veins have nerves. Nerve hits can be electric. Veins have an odd sensation, the pain is spread around as the brain cannot locate the pain to a specific location. If you hit a nerve or vein in your glutes, you will feel that too. As you pierce the skin, that might be less of a pain in the ass [could not resist the pun].