You don’t give mere children praise for their good works? You don’t give judges honor? Next time you are ever in a court, don’t address the judge as “Honor” just call him by his first name, see how that goes. If you don’t realise that being a faithful Christian puts you into a KINGDOM, where honor is due to those more righteous than us. Heaven is not a democracy, Christ is King, we are not equals to Christ or lesser’s with a vote. If you don’t realise that this is a kingdom, with a King, then you got a lot to learn.
Good thing it is not your opinion, but God’s will. And, why do you have a problem with the Pope, Jesus did give Peter the keys to Heaven for a reason, the reason why King Solomon put in place the office of chief of the Kingdom, he ruled why Solomon was gone. Even the Orthodox knows that supremacy of the Bishop of Rome.
And just about the honor thing, the Bible instructs us to honor everyone above ourselves… And it seems like your saying th Pope is here in Christ absence? (correct if im wrong) but if that is true then the Pope is not needed, Christ said that he sent us his Holy Spirit to be our guide, not a Pope.
"This is equivalent to asking someone to pray for you, but the Saints being more righteous than us on earth, are answered when they pray. We don’t worship Saints or Mary, we honor them. Praying to the Saints is an old tradition back to the Jews who invoked the mother’s name of the person they were praying for. "
I understand what your saying but heres two verses that came to mind when I read this, first
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).
[/quote]
Yes, but the Saints are not mediators, they are intercessors.
Saints are part of the family of God, “each other.” Old tradition gave you the Bible, so watch your words or you’ll look foolish.
As well Revelations 5:8, “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and the golden bowls full of incense, WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS” the elders being the saints in Heaven are clearly offering the prayers of the saints on earth to Christ, the one mediator between man and God.
Even though, I’ve explained this time and time again, because you’re new and I’m getting the feeling that no one has actually answered this objection to you (even though I’ve probably answered this with every single Christian friend of mine and even some of my non-friend Christians and my friend non-Christians and non-friend non-Christians have asked this, too).
The objection by some Christians to praying to our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us are unfounded. They say, as you have, that God has FORBIDDEN contact with the dead in such verses as Deuteronomy 18:10-11. That is simply unfounded and untrue. He has not forbidden it, he has given it. You pull from Mosaic Law, which Tirib ferociously defended that we are not under that Law (I do not believe that, but brings up the point, why would we need the Torah if we weren’t under the Mosaic Law’s), which Jesus himself did not break one single Mosaic Law, however if that is the case then what is going on during Matthew 17:3, when both Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration? What God has in fact FORBIDDEN is necromantic practice where the practitioner conjures up spirits.
“There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer…For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren-him you shall heed” (Duet. 18:10-15).
It is obvious from the WHOLE passage that one is not to conjure up the dead for purposes of gaining information; you are instead to look to God’s prophets instead. Do not hold a seance, but having common sense I am sure you can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his grandmother’s grave, “Grandma, please pray for me; life is a little tough right now.” The two is so different that the difference can be said to be night and day. Seances are part of the occult (which I will fight against tell the day I die, Harry Potter is the occult by the way), an occult practice that is done specifically to get secret information; the other is a humble request to a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
You don’t see the difference? Between asking a saint to pray for you and conjuring spirits “to give him advice” your own words? One you get no communication from the saints, they just pray for you. You can tell if your prayers are answered, but beyond that they don’t talk to you. Except for Mary, she’s been known to appear to people (not by conjuring).
Ever heard of hyperbole? I’m sure Tirib knows exactly where I’m going so much, his head probably fell into his hands, wishing this wasn’t brought up.
Let’s first look at this wonderful piece of Sacred Scripture. Romans 3:23 says, “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Bam, ouch that stings. Man my back end hurts every time I hear that phrase. That’s what they used to tell me when I’d get a whooping when they couldn’t find any proof I did anything wrong.
Now, let’s look at what it is going on in this verse, and remember…text without context is pretext for proof text.
ALL HAVE SINNED…well guess what? The gig is up, we gotta go home, because ALL HAVE SINNED that means Jesus in his fully human form with human nature has sinned, so he was not perfect, which means he was not a perfect altar sacrificial lamb, which means that the Jews are right, which means Tirib is wrong because we’re still under the Mosaic law…but wait…I can save this passage. We can still be Christians! What if Paul wasn’t saying that all have sinned without exception, but all have sinned without distinction? Maybe so, let’s think about this.
3:23 all have sinned: Not all without exception (every human being), but all without distinction (Jews and Gentiles alike, 3:9; 10:12). That there are exceptions is clear: Jesus was sinless; children below the age of reason do not willfully commit sin; and tradition holds that Mary (Augustine, Ignatius, Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Anglican, Luther, Calvin), by the GRACE OF GOD, lived her entire life unstained by sin!
Duns Scotus (an Eastern Church Father, known as the Subtle Doctor) said that since Christ is a PERFECT savior, there must be at least one instance of somebody who is PERFECTLY saved by Jesusâ??saved from top to bottom and from beginning to endâ??saved so PERFECTLY that they were saved, not by being pulled out of the pit of sin, but by being KEPT FROM EVER falling in at all. And the fitting candidate for that PERFECT gift of preventative salvation is Mary:
He who is the most PERFECT mediator must have a most PERFECT act of mediation in regard to some person on whose behalf he exercises the mediatorial office. Now Christ is the most PERFECT…and he had no more exalted relation to any person than to the Blessed Virgin Mary…This could not be if he had not merited for her preservation from original sin.
And, I say with all humbleness BOOM SHOCKALOCKA!
You think? Well this sounds like we’re getting into man’s law. I’ll need a verse or something on that.
However, I will say that you were partially correct in your statement, that all bodies in Heaven point to Christ. You’re wrong to think that otherwise they will ignore you, when in fact they point your prayers to Christ, they kneel before the lamb and offer bowls full of incense to the Lamb.
How is not Biblical, do I have to remind you of the bronze or brazen statue of a serpent, which GOD HIMSELF commissioned to Moses to create? “And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.” (Numbers 21:8)
As well, as I will say again the Bible is tradition, the Catholic Church canonized it. Yes, you may be informed to the best of your ability on the Word of God, but I sit in the ship ran by the Captain that wrote the map. So, you may have the map yourself, but the map is 1700 years old, you just picked it up. My captain has had the map for 1700 years, wrote it, and knows that it works.
[quote]brandonk87 wrote:
You don’t give mere children praise for their good works? You don’t give judges honor? Next time you are ever in a court, don’t address the judge as “Honor” just call him by his first name, see how that goes. If you don’t realise that being a faithful Christian puts you into a KINGDOM, where honor is due to those more righteous than us. Heaven is not a democracy, Christ is King, we are not equals to Christ or lesser’s with a vote. If you don’t realise that this is a kingdom, with a King, then you got a lot to learn.
Good thing it is not your opinion, but God’s will. And, why do you have a problem with the Pope, Jesus did give Peter the keys to Heaven for a reason, the reason why King Solomon put in place the office of chief of the Kingdom, he ruled why Solomon was gone. Even the Orthodox knows that supremacy of the Bishop of Rome.
And just about the honor thing, the Bible instructs us to honor everyone above ourselves… And it seems like your saying th Pope is here in Christ absence? (correct if im wrong) but if that is true then the Pope is not needed, Christ said that he sent us his Holy Spirit to be our guide, not a Pope.[/quote]
Physical absence, like Jesus’ body is no longer on this earth, it is in Heaven, and the Pope is the See of the Church here on earth until Jesus comes for his sheep. He also gave us his Church, which he gave Peter the keys to Heaven, which he promised to protect from the gates of Hell by using his apostles in which their words were equal to the word of God, and that the Holy Ghost would work through the Church.
And, why does everyone pretend like Jesus just left his earth with his Church in anarchy when he clearly said to be in union with each other, when the best way to keep unity is to have ONE leader.
If we are going to live in a Kingdom with a King, why would we live in an anarchy when Jesus specifically came to gather his lost sheep.
haha, this is just gonna go on forever, just know I do look as you as a brother in the Lord, but a little theological discussion isnt always a terrible thing,
romans 8:27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for Godâ??s people in accordance with the will of God.
give me one verse saying saints who have passed on intercede…
In Luke 16 we see the rich man speak to Abraham from hades, but never is there an instance where a person prays to a saint (or any other dead person) to intercede
Also i think your understanding of intercession is off… the only need to intercede for someone is when they cannot speak for themselves or dont have the ability to… if your bringing request to saint then you have identified and have the ability to ask God the Father the same request… theres no need for a middle man.
FYI we have all sinned prior to even consciously doing it… this is because we are born with a sinful nature. One of the first words a child ever learns is no, we dont listen right from the start. We sin, but the age of accountability is in reference to Gods grace, not our own merit… and mMary was no different.
You believe that without Mary’s intercession you cannot be saved I assume, but the Bible says that there is no other form of salvation then through Christ!
Acts 4:12? â??Neither is there salvation any other, for there is none other name under Heaven given among men where by we must be saved.â??
Thinking that Mary was perfect doesn’t come from the Bible, it comes from the mystery religions of Babylon. All you have to do is just read a little historical background. Mary is called the Queen of Heaven, the Queen on Heaven is an idolatrous title! You can find it in Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Itâ??s a title used for worship of Ashteroth, the mother of Baal. It has nothing to do with Mary. And where did the 40 days of Lent come from? You wont find one verse about it in the Bible… Forty days of Lent was a forty day morning period that Baal might be resurrected from the dead because he was killed by a wild boar, and it was superimposed on Christianity.
And you really hang your argument of Mary being perfect on Dun Scotus??? Come on… If you had a Bible verse id agree with you fully, but taking what a man says and arguing it like it the word of God is a dangerous game to play. Joel Osteen says if you have faith God will give you whatever you want… thats no more true then saying Mary was perfect.
Just for kicks though well go along with the idea that Mary was indeed perfect so that Christ would be made perfect… but then how was Mary made perfect? Was her mother and father also perfect, and their parents perfect?? whats more likely, that God started the trend with Jesus, the savior of the world, or his mother?? it doesn’t make sense even from a logical point of view.
As for the numbers reference about Moses, your just working scripture around your theology. Whenever god instructed any sort of statue or monument to be set up it was a reminder to the people of what God had said or done, or a covenant he made with the people. None once has God instructed someone to make a statue or idol to pay honor to a man, it always has the intent to remind people or to bring Glory to God.
And if you truely think the “captain of the ship” is the catholic church then you simply prove my point more. The Bible is the word of GOD! He is the captain. And he inspired the men who wrote the scriptures… not the catholic church.
Lastly, (finally haha) We know that Christ is omnipresent, he is not absent… He alone is the head of the true Church of God.
romans 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Saying the pope is higher then another first of goes against scripture. As united believers we should consider each one greater then ourselves, putting the pope on some higher level cannot and will not be found in scripture…
You live in your kingdom where the pope is the king, Ill serve JESUS as my KING. (theres plenty of scripture supporting that)
I still would like to see any biblical text that says there should be a pope, lent, that mary had to be perfect, that Duns Scotus has the ability to form new doctrine that isn’t found anywhere in the bible, and that the catholic church is the “captain of the ship”
Your basing your argument off of what you’ve been taught, not scripture. Just read the scripture yourself and see if theres any justification for any of these claims.
[quote]brandonk87 wrote:
haha, this is just gonna go on forever, >>>
[/quote]You have no idea and you will never come up with something that they don’t have some sort of answer for that satisfies them. I hope you keep at it though. It took me a little while to be reminded of just how evil and anti-Christian the RCC was. In a way I’m grateful. I had gotten dull over the years and kinda forgotten. Keep in prayer. You’re gonna need it.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Thanks for your honest response.<<<<>>>>Do you see what I’m saying?[/quote]I’m not playin games with you. You don’t have the slightest interest in actual answers to anything and I’ve had these exact conversations 100 times with people. This is not a sport with me. I’m not interested in proving anything to you either because it is not possible as I’ve repeatedly stated. I do not play on your field. You are a dead man, just like I was. I can only tell you how to live. Meaning how to gain true genuine divine everlasting life. You can have that, as can Pat or Chris or anybody else who believes and asks and the dynamic living presence of God Himself dwelling in you will change you in ways that nobody will miss.
You will begin to love what He loves and hate what He hates. You will see yourself for the filthy abominable wretched criminal you are and will weep at the unfathomable mercy and love of a God who will adopt you into His own family and call you brother, son and bride embracing you as His own. When that happens you will not be able to stop yourself from loving the lost and praying God use you to save some of them.
Even recently the most high holy LORD of all has on my request probed deep into my self deceiving heart and shown me the depths of my depravity if left to my self. I am no better or deserving than you are and never have been believe you me. Do not misunderstand me pal. I don’t care who you bone either. It’s a symptom. You could go back to your wife and give up your homosexuality altogether and go to the exact same hell you are headed for now. People are not damned because they’re gay, or because they’re murderers or because they’re jehovah’s witnesses or because they’re catholic.
SinS are merely outward manifestations of SIN inherited from our first father Adam. Everybody is conceived and born equally damned. You can spot the ons who have been born again, without which Jesus Himself said nobody will see His kingdom, because they love what He loves and hate what He hates. Contrary to Pat’s, even by Roman Catholic standards, blasphemous permissive libertine idol that he calls god, THEE God who reveals Himself to men has given one and only one way to escape the terrible wrath of His righteous judgment. They who confess what they are and trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ His son will be born again to new life. All the religious ritual of any kind, not just catholic, is an affront and an abomination to the God who sent His son to defeat death in our place.
My tremendously erudite, scholarly and “hateful” message to you my friend is this… Repent, believe the gospel and live. If not you will die eternally with deluded liars like Pat (if he doesn’t repent too) who know nothing. NOTHING, of the unapproachable thrice holy God who is actually there. I will continue interceding before the throne of grace on your behalf (you too Pat, and Chris and actually a whole list of others). I LONG to call you my brothers whether you believe that or not.[/quote]
Tiribulus, please respect the sincerity of my intent, as I do yours. I’m not playing games either. My entire life, I have believed deeply in the sincere and relentless pursuit of truth. If these questions aren’t worth our most earnest consideration, what is?
I don’t consider you hateful at all. In fact, I’ve been meaning to say this for some time. It isn’t easy to have your most cherished beliefs challenged by others. I think you, Cortes, Pat, Chris, and others have acquitted yourselves very well, given the nature of these discussions. For the most part, you have kept the discussion focused on the topic, without resorting to personal attacks. For that, you have my respect.
When I point out why I don’t consider faith a reliable touchstone for truth, I am not questioning your integrity. When I call those beliefs myths, I am not saying anything negative about you at all. When you say that you see me as spiritually dead, I don’t take that personally either.
Given my own background, I am in no position to judge. As I’ve said before, I spent many years as a devout Christian, and my entire world view revolved around my beliefs. I understand the joy, peace, and purpose that comes from the belief that one has a personal, daily relationship with Christ. Those beliefs weren’t easy to give up, even as a gay man. I have several gay friends who in fact do continue to believe in Christ. However, when I said that I value the relentless pursuit of truth, I meant it. I would never have changed my beliefs if in my heart I didn’t feel that it was consistent with the truth. One of my favorite quotes:
Chris, thanks for clarifying your beliefs. So given the difficulty of truly understanding Catholic church doctrine, even for lifetime church members, what does that say about their salvation? Is knowledge necessary for salvation? Or is it enough for people to live according to the limited knowledge that they have? For example, what if Tirib never learns more about the Catholic church and dies with his current views about it? Is there still a possibility he will be saved, according to church doctrine?
[quote]brandonk87 wrote:
haha, this is just gonna go on forever, just know I do look as you as a brother in the Lord, but a little theological discussion isnt always a terrible thing,
romans 8:27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for Godâ??s people in accordance with the will of God.
give me one verse saying saints who have passed on intercede…
[/quote]
Well besides the early Church Father’s comments on praying to the saints, there is Rev 5:8 like I pointed out where the saints in heaven offer up the prayers of the saints on earth, but you ignored that.
I don’t think that the rich man was real, it was more of a parable warning us about Hades were those died not in the grace of God will go to wait for the last judgement where both body and soul are tormented in Hell. Both Hades and Hell is supposed to be a place of anguish where our hatred for God comes forth into full effect and so him talking to Abraham wouldn’t make sense because Abraham is part of God’s family.
There already is a middle man, there is Christ. He is the mediator between the Father and man, are you presuming that you can take Christ’s position and talk to the father directly? I do not even say that.
Where in the Bible does it say that you shouldn’t ask others to pray for you, you just said the Bible said to pray for each other, now you are saying (without verse this time) that you’re not to pray for each other, but instead go straight to the Father, which is ridiculous in itself, since only Christ is mediator between God and man.
Webster defines intercession as a prayer to God on behalf of another person. Has nothing to do with if someone cannot do it themselves, I intercede for people all the time, I except those more righteous and in heaven to follow the commandments of God even more.
Okay, well then we better stop this Christianity thing, because if we have all sinned prior to even consciously doing it, then Jesus sinned as well. You just said it, we have ALL sinned. You sir believe that Jesus sinned.
Now you’re just making shit up. Abraham was saved without Mary’s intercession, Moses was too, Elijah without it and Elias was brought up to Heaven body and soul without intercession of Mary. The only thing that saves you is Jesus’ grace, as well the good thief on the cross was saved without Mary’s intercession (well she might have prayed for him because of his location to her son, but I’m not sure).
She is the Queen Mother, yes, not idolatrous, she is not a God. Get over yourself, and stop reading into things you do not know about. Queen Mother was also the mother of King Solomon, King David’s wife. Seriously you’re hacking at Lent now? 40 days of Lent is the time Jesus was in the Desert before he started his ministry, BIBLICAL. Boom Shock A Locka! 40 years in the Desert by the Jewish people Boom Shock A Locka! And, Easter being the feast safely in Israel! Boom Shock A Locka!
I do, Hail Mary, FULL OF GRACE, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, JESUS.
Mary was the ark of the New Covenant, Jesus. Jesus was the New Adam and needed a New Eve, Mary. BIBLICAL! Boom Shock a Locka.
And tell me, why does it need to be Biblical. Where is SOLA SCRIPTURA in the Bible? I have issued this challenge four times on here, and the only response I got was not very good. Oh, and the Trinity isn’t in the Bible, neither is several other things that Protestants believe, along with Catholics.
Ironically, yesterday was the celebration of how Mary was born without sin and fallen nature, it is called the Immaculate Conception.
Yes it does, it makes perfect sense. Jesus needed a perfect vessel to which to be born into the world. Mary was conceived without sin.
Really, because the passage clearly states that through that statue, God saved his people from the serpents. Which is it, that it was a reminder or that God used the statue? Yes, and those statues are a reminder to people of God’s saving grace, and bring Glory to God. You are reading to far into something and talking in heresy’s that are not there. It’s a picture or a statue, it has no powers what’s so ever.
Yes, but the Catholic Church wrote the word of GOD! Of course, but Jesus is not on earth. Um…hate to tell you this, but those men that wrote scripture were the Catholic Church. You can keep slipping and sliding all around trying to make your point or you can realise that the Catholic Church is His bride.
Yes, he is the invisible head of the Church, but not the visible head of the Church. I mean if you got Jesus walking around please let me know, that’s quite important. And, if Jesus alone is head of the Church and we’re supposed to be unified in one Church, then how come only the Catholic Church is unified and all the protestant Church are all over the place, 30,000 and counting.
[quote]
romans 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Saying the pope is higher then another first of goes against scripture. As united believers we should consider each one greater then ourselves, putting the pope on some higher level cannot and will not be found in scripture… [/quote]
Where does it go against scripture? Really then why was Peter the most spoke of Apostle in the New Testament, why was he the first to show up except for two times? Why did Jesus speak of Peter first among the Apostles? The office of Peter, Jesus’ chosen visible head of the Church. And, I’m sorry outside the Catholic Church no one is unified. There is 30,000 denominations how can that be called unified?
I never said the Pope is King, did I say that? No, because you are making up shit. Jesus is King of Kings, that doesn’t mean there is no other kings. And, again I never said the Pope is King.
Pope - Matthew 16:18
Lent - Ex 24:18; Matthew 4:2; Luke 4:2; Duet 9:9; 1 Kings 19:8; Gen 7:14, 17; Exodus 34:28; Num 14:34; Judg 13:1; 1 Kings 19:8; Jon 3:4
Mary - Luke 1:28; 41-43; 1:42 is in context with Judges 5:24-27; Jude 13:18; Gen 3:15; 1 Jon 3:8
I have, you assume I do not read scripture. I’ll put my daily readings down once again, since everyone knows that Catholics don’t read scripture. I think you need to read scripture more and show me where the Bible teaches that you can only use the Bible.
3:00 - Office of the hours
5:00 - Wake up read Proverb for the day
5:45 - Invitatory Psalm
6:45 - Morning Prayer
8:30 - Mass (three Sacred Scripture readings and one Psalm)
12:15 - Daytime Prayer
6:30 - Evening Prayer
6:45 - 7:45: Read or Study through the Bible
9:30 - Night Prayer
Now for all those prayers, I use the Divine Office: http://divineoffice.org/ which is filled with Sacred Scripture and Psalms. Now, what were you about me not reading the scripture myself?
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< How do you know you are right tirib? We Catholics are scriptural to. If you think those who hold fast to evangelical tradition are better, more important or higher on the totem pole than anybody else is full of shit.
I tell you this, if God were as big a jerk as you make him out to be, I would have no use for him. But he’s not and I know it…[/quote]You HAVE no use for Him Pat and you understand NOTHING of the glorious gospel of the true living and risen holy Christ. I’ll keep praying that He has a holy use for you and that is not just talk. Whatever hippified feel good sugar daddy deity this is you’re talking about? Not even the pope would recognize. I’ll actually give your church more credit than you.
[/quote]
[quote]brandonk87 wrote:
<<< Saying Chris isn’t “saved” because he’s catholic is limiting God. >>>[/quote]I have never said this and salvation IS limited. [quote]brandonk87 wrote: The true issue of salvation is when there isn’t any change in that persons life. You can confess your a Christian till the day you die but if your lifestyle doesn’t reflect it then you are not, its that simple. >>>[/quote]Truth. If nobody suspects you love Jesus without you telling them, you don’t. No more time again at the moment
[/quote]
Yet you condemn Catholics for being good a Charity, when we know that true acts of charity are because of faith in God.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Thanks for your honest response.<<<<>>>>Do you see what I’m saying?[/quote]I’m not playin games with you. You don’t have the slightest interest in actual answers to anything and I’ve had these exact conversations 100 times with people. This is not a sport with me. I’m not interested in proving anything to you either because it is not possible as I’ve repeatedly stated. I do not play on your field. You are a dead man, just like I was. I can only tell you how to live. Meaning how to gain true genuine divine everlasting life. You can have that, as can Pat or Chris or anybody else who believes and asks and the dynamic living presence of God Himself dwelling in you will change you in ways that nobody will miss.
[/quote]
Sounds like saved by works, if you just ASK, you’ll be saved.
I see the beauty that God has made through his creations, not the wretchedness that man has created.
Specially if they are faithful Catholics because they actually follow what Jesus THE KING has told us to do.
You call God blasphemous permissive and libertine idol? Yet you won’t submit to God’s authority. Hilarity shall insue…lol yep it’s there. I guess what Jesus tells us to do is “ritual” lolololol.
[quote]
My tremendously erudite, scholarly and “hateful” message to you my friend is this… Repent, believe the gospel and live. If not you will die eternally with deluded liars like Pat (if he doesn’t repent too) who know nothing. NOTHING, of the unapproachable thrice holy God who is actually there. I will continue interceding before the throne of grace on your behalf (you too Pat, and Chris and actually a whole list of others). I LONG to call you my brothers whether you believe that or not.[/quote]
Actually the correct message is Repent and be baptized (if you already are then you just need the repent part). However, since you didn’t ask how to become saved, then I’ll wait patiently for you to ask. I don’t pressure people like Tirib, I’m not an evangelical.
The funny thing is forlife, we call Tirib brother and we call you brother, but he doesn’t acknowledge us as brothers, what a brother, eh?
[quote]brandonk87 wrote:
<<< Saying Chris isn’t “saved” because he’s catholic is limiting God. >>>[/quote]I have never said this and salvation IS limited. [quote]brandonk87 wrote: The true issue of salvation is when there isn’t any change in that persons life. You can confess your a Christian till the day you die but if your lifestyle doesn’t reflect it then you are not, its that simple. >>>[/quote]Truth. If nobody suspects you love Jesus without you telling them, you don’t. No more time again at the moment
[/quote]
Yet you condemn Catholics for being good a Charity, when we know that true acts of charity are because of faith in God.[/quote]You’re relentless Chris. I’ll give ya that. I’m at work again so not much time. I condemn nobody for anything least of all charity. I simply reiterate what I, and millions of other Christians see in the pages of scripture. Works of “charity” are evidence of exactly zero. A heart at war with it’s own sin IS. A person living with public open sin and or fatally heretical doctrine has displayed no fruits of the presence of the Lord in their life. God doesn’t care how much time and or money they give. This ranges from unmistakably clear to not so much with both life and doctrine. Maybe more later. I cannot keep up.
Works of righteousness, meaning a life of pursuing holiness and forsaking sins, even holding essentially sound doctrine saves nobody. They are the outward manifestation of a heart alive in Christ without which they do lie who lay claim to His name. Helping widows and the poor etc. are noble righteous causes in the hands of those doing it for the crown and covenant of King Jesus alone and are a putrid stench in God’s nostrils when put forth as substituting for personal sanctification which is very often, even if unconsciously the case.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Ok, I’ll ask. Chris, what do you believe a person must do in order to be saved? And are there any exceptions to this?[/quote]
Repent and baptized is what will save you now.[/quote]
If that’s truly all you believe it takes to be saved, I don’t see how anyone could consider that to be unbiblical.[/quote]
That’s right now, but the other part if you live passed your baptism is that you need to have faith and good works for justification. However, evangelicals and fundamental Christians will point out, incorrectly, that the Catholic Church teaches works only will save you. But, the Church does not teach that it teaches faith and good works will justify you, but only Jesus’ grace will save you. Our efforts on earth have no hand in saving us, however Jesus only saves the justified. I think, this has always been a little confusing for myself. I don’t really try to understand it, I just realise that there are things that I need to do in order to be justified and the rest is taken care of by faith and hope that Jesus will be charitable and merciful enough to save me.
18The LORD is near to all who call upon Him,
To all who call upon Him in truth.
Jeremiah 29:12-13
12’Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.
13’You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
The prayer of the saints in Revelation is simply saying God honors the prayers of his people, not that we need dead believers to lift them up to God,
And regardless of is the rich man was truly in hades or not talking to Abraham (which is debatable) you still missed the point of what I was saying, where in the Bible has anyone prayed to the saints? I never said the Bible said not to pray for each other, theres tons of verse speaking to that, but where does it say to ask the dead to pray on our behalf??? never.
And I do believe that WE HAVE ALL SINNED… Why, because is in the Bible. Saying Jesus sinned because I said this is ignorant on your part. The only exception to this truth was Jesus. Jesus is the only one who was fully God and fully man. If you feel otherwise show me a verse to back up that Mary was blameless… In the meantime heres one (of many) supporting my claim
John 1:14 The Word became flesh
Do you think that people can be saved without acknowledging the Mary was sinless?
As for lent, the practice is are rooted in tradition not Bible commanded. Thats like saying since Jesus was in a tomb for 3 days that for 3 days we all stay in bed and pray to remember his suffering… its not exactly against scripture, but its not commanded by scripture, you see what I mean?
As your argument Mary was the Ark of the Covenant…
The Ark of the Covenant was the embodiment of God’s presence among the Israelites. This is why people who even touched the Ark would die, in our sin we cannot be in the prescience of the Lord… If mary really was the ark of the covenant wouldn’t that mean that after Christ was born then she no longer held the presence of the Lord? Even if you do think she was the Ark of the Covenant, she no longer is.
And you still didnt answer, if jesus needed a perfect vessel to be born from, then how was earthly mary made perfect, was her parents perfect also??
THE TRINITY IS BIBLICAL
matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, â??This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.â??
3 present representations of God, Jesus also said I and my Father are one
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
you wrote: Really, because the passage clearly states that through that statue, God saved his people from the serpents. Which is it, that it was a reminder or that God used the statue? Yes, and those statues are a reminder to people of God’s saving grace, and bring Glory to God. You are reading to far into something and talking in heresy’s that are not there. It’s a picture or a statue, it has no powers what’s so ever.
The statue didnt save the people, God’s power did, the statue was a symbol. period.
you wrote
Yes, but the Catholic Church wrote the word of GOD! Of course, but Jesus is not on earth. Um…hate to tell you this, but those men that wrote scripture were the Catholic Church. You can keep slipping and sliding all around trying to make your point or you can realise that the Catholic Church is His bride.
This is false. The Bible says that the Church is the Bride of Christ, the body of Believers, not a denomination. Second, if anyone is held in high regard as God’s chosen it the Jews, after allJesus was Jewish, not catholic. And the Catholic church did not write the word of God. Matthew Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Timothy, Paul, David etc, these men of God wrote the Bible and were Inspired by God to do so,
As for your idea of a unified catholic church, I feel like a better term would be mindless… Just because a priest says something doesnt make it scriptural. There are scruples in the Protestant denomination that people wont resolve, but that doesnt mean were still not united in Christ. At least our arguments and ideas have Biblical backing, interpretations may differ, but scripture is still there. And a majority following does not justify accuracy…
You said
Physical absence, like Jesus’ body is no longer on this earth, it is in Heaven, and the Pope is the See of the Church here on earth until Jesus comes for his sheep.
and.And, why does everyone pretend like Jesus just left his earth with his Church in anarchy when he clearly said to be in union with each other, when the best way to keep unity is to have ONE leader. If we are going to live in a Kingdom with a King, why would we live in an anarchy when Jesus specifically came to gather his lost sheep.
You said that the Pope is the king… since Jesus is gone we need a pope to keep from having anarchy. Am I misinterpreting?
Matthew 16
16Simon Peter answered, “You are (T)the Christ, (U)the Son of (V)the living God.”
17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, (W)Simon Barjona, because (X)flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18"I also say to you that you are (Y)Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of (Z)Hades will not overpower it.
19"I will give you (AA)the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and (AB)whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
Where does that say that theres a pope?? haha… Peter knew who Jesus was prior to it being reveal. The apostles didnt actually know Jesus was God, Peter got a special revelation from God. This is the foundation of the church, that Christ is Lord… so where does this say there need to be a pope? good passage though.
i have to run, ill get to the rest later. we should really shorten up all these arguments, it takes too long to go through it all haha, God bless
18The LORD is near to all who call upon Him,
To all who call upon Him in truth.
Jeremiah 29:12-13
12’Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.
13’You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
The prayer of the saints in Revelation is simply saying God honors the prayers of his people, not that we need dead believers to lift them up to God,
And regardless of is the rich man was truly in hades or not talking to Abraham (which is debatable) you still missed the point of what I was saying, where in the Bible has anyone prayed to the saints? I never said the Bible said not to pray for each other, theres tons of verse speaking to that, but where does it say to ask the dead to pray on our behalf??? never.
And I do believe that WE HAVE ALL SINNED… Why, because is in the Bible. Saying Jesus sinned because I said this is ignorant on your part. The only exception to this truth was Jesus. Jesus is the only one who was fully God and fully man. If you feel otherwise show me a verse to back up that Mary was blameless… In the meantime heres one (of many) supporting my claim
John 1:14 The Word became flesh
Do you think that people can be saved without acknowledging the Mary was sinless?
As for lent, the practice is are rooted in tradition not Bible commanded. Thats like saying since Jesus was in a tomb for 3 days that for 3 days we all stay in bed and pray to remember his suffering… its not exactly against scripture, but its not commanded by scripture, you see what I mean?
As your argument Mary was the Ark of the Covenant…
The Ark of the Covenant was the embodiment of God’s presence among the Israelites. This is why people who even touched the Ark would die, in our sin we cannot be in the prescience of the Lord… If mary really was the ark of the covenant wouldn’t that mean that after Christ was born then she no longer held the presence of the Lord? Even if you do think she was the Ark of the Covenant, she no longer is.
And you still didnt answer, if jesus needed a perfect vessel to be born from, then how was earthly mary made perfect, was her parents perfect also??
THE TRINITY IS BIBLICAL
matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, â??This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.â??
3 present representations of God, Jesus also said I and my Father are one
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
you wrote: Really, because the passage clearly states that through that statue, God saved his people from the serpents. Which is it, that it was a reminder or that God used the statue? Yes, and those statues are a reminder to people of God’s saving grace, and bring Glory to God. You are reading to far into something and talking in heresy’s that are not there. It’s a picture or a statue, it has no powers what’s so ever.
The statue didnt save the people, God’s power did, the statue was a symbol. period.
you wrote
Yes, but the Catholic Church wrote the word of GOD! Of course, but Jesus is not on earth. Um…hate to tell you this, but those men that wrote scripture were the Catholic Church. You can keep slipping and sliding all around trying to make your point or you can realise that the Catholic Church is His bride.
This is false. The Bible says that the Church is the Bride of Christ, the body of Believers, not a denomination. Second, if anyone is held in high regard as God’s chosen it the Jews, after allJesus was Jewish, not catholic. And the Catholic church did not write the word of God. Matthew Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Timothy, Paul, David etc, these men of God wrote the Bible and were Inspired by God to do so,
As for your idea of a unified catholic church, I feel like a better term would be mindless… Just because a priest says something doesnt make it scriptural. There are scruples in the Protestant denomination that people wont resolve, but that doesnt mean were still not united in Christ. At least our arguments and ideas have Biblical backing, interpretations may differ, but scripture is still there. And a majority following does not justify accuracy…
You said
Physical absence, like Jesus’ body is no longer on this earth, it is in Heaven, and the Pope is the See of the Church here on earth until Jesus comes for his sheep.
and.And, why does everyone pretend like Jesus just left his earth with his Church in anarchy when he clearly said to be in union with each other, when the best way to keep unity is to have ONE leader. If we are going to live in a Kingdom with a King, why would we live in an anarchy when Jesus specifically came to gather his lost sheep.
You said that the Pope is the king… since Jesus is gone we need a pope to keep from having anarchy. Am I misinterpreting?
Matthew 16
16Simon Peter answered, “You are (T)the Christ, (U)the Son of (V)the living God.”
17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, (W)Simon Barjona, because (X)flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18"I also say to you that you are (Y)Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of (Z)Hades will not overpower it.
19"I will give you (AA)the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and (AB)whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
Where does that say that theres a pope?? haha… Peter knew who Jesus was prior to it being reveal. The apostles didnt actually know Jesus was God, Peter got a special revelation from God. This is the foundation of the church, that Christ is Lord… so where does this say there need to be a pope? good passage though.
i have to run, ill get to the rest later. we should really shorten up all these arguments, it takes too long to go through it all haha, God bless
[quote]forlife wrote:
Ok, I’ll ask. Chris, what do you believe a person must do in order to be saved? And are there any exceptions to this?[/quote]
Repent and baptized is what will save you now.[/quote]
If that’s truly all you believe it takes to be saved, I don’t see how anyone could consider that to be unbiblical.[/quote]
That’s right now, but the other part if you live passed your baptism is that you need to have faith and good works for justification. However, evangelicals and fundamental Christians will point out, incorrectly, that the Catholic Church teaches works only will save you. But, the Church does not teach that it teaches faith and good works will justify you, but only Jesus’ grace will save you. Our efforts on earth have no hand in saving us, however Jesus only saves the justified. I think, this has always been a little confusing for myself. I don’t really try to understand it, I just realise that there are things that I need to do in order to be justified and the rest is taken care of by faith and hope that Jesus will be charitable and merciful enough to save me.
[/quote]
I far prefer the focus you put on actually doing good, over the claim that 5 minutes of truly confessing Jesus in your heart will save you, no matter what you do after that point. I met one guy on my mission who insisted he could commit any sin, even including murder, and still be saved because he had already accepted Jesus in his life. I think it’s people like him that James was addressing in chapter 2 of his letter.