[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
That’s funny, because of all the Born Again Christians (that is, the denomination) that I’ve spoken to, they always seem to give a very personal opinion of the bible/God. It appears that they seem more interested in saying that “God chose me, I’m special, therefore I know what I’m talking about”.
They have a very contradictory way of saying: “I am humble, I’m not boasting”
And then the whole of the rest of the conversation goes something like this:
“God chose me” (so deep down I feel a smug sense of achievement/meaning)
But of course, “I’m not saying that I’m special or anything” 
I’m not saying that this is you, I’m simply relaying what I’ve experienced. The Born Again’s that I’ve met are more interested in their “position” and feeling of “specialness”, and they’re quite complacent in telling me that they’re going to heaven (without even getting off their backside to try and help others to be “saved”, despite believing without being saved, people will be eternally tortured in hell fire).
If I was to sum up most Born Again’s that I’ve met, it’s complacency and a feeling of worth because they feel that God has specially chosen them. Without that element of “selfishness”, I don’t believe most would be interested or have any passion about what they believe.[/quote]
There’s no such denomination as “born again”, but that’s OK. I understand what you mean. As for the rest of the above? To our great shame you are pretty much correct and the church, by which I mean the all those claiming the Christ of the Bible regardless of denomination, would do well to hear what you are saying. There is a humongous new discussion potentially involved here, but I’ll be as concise as I can.
There ARE different levels of maturity among true Christians as Paul writes about extensively. There are also legions of false Christians, especially in the United States. I can’t speak about the particular people you’ve met, but any person who addresses you (or anyone else) with a holier than thou attitude either hasn’t yet understood their own salvation or isn’t saved at all. The indwelling presence of the Spirit of God brings a deep awesome humility in the face of exactly how UN-special in themselves they are. Once somebody has the focus honed in on their on their own sin by the Holy Spirit nobody else’s looks quite so bad.
In short, the church has failed miserably, again, especially in this country, in both her witness and her outreach.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
As regards making God to be something that they want Him to be, I was not “sugar coating” God by talking about His mercy - the bible talks about that.
JW’s are the ones who say that you cannot just make God out to be some “big cuddly teddy bear of love”, action is required. You cannot just claim that you are saved and that’s it. Faith is proved by actions:
James 2:17 “faith without works is dead”
JW’s are the only ones who take unrepentant and blatent sin within the church seriously, and ironically, they’re “persecuted” for this arrangement (disfellowshiping) and are told that this is “unloving”, despite following biblical guidelines (some scriptures of which have been mentioned).
JW’s by far do not sugar coat the truth, and make out that all you need to do is “say a line and you’re converted/saved”. It is the mainstream belief that says “all you need to do is be good”. If anything, JW’s are the ones who are accused of making their members “jump through many hoops” in order to attain salvation. When in reality, these so called hoops are bible standards. Although this is mistaken as an unbalanced focus on works rather than faith, which isn’t true. Faith and works go hand in hand (one does not exist without the other). If you say that you have faith, and love God, and yet are committing fornication, or cheating on your wife every week (despite knowing that the bible condemns this)…I’d say that you are a liar.[/quote]
You are also essentially correct here as well. Saving faith of necessity brings with it a transformed life though sanctification is a lifelong process. It’s a war, Paul uses that word, (Rom. 7:23) between the congenital indwelling sin bequeathed to us by Adam and the new creature in Christ raised from the dead in the new birth. If that new creature exists he will make his presence known. No truly regenerate person can peacefully coexist with known sin. It is his sworn mortal enemy. He hates it because his Lord hates it but he will not be free from it while dwelling in this fallen flesh. 1 Cor. 15:54
Christians can and do sin and sometimes quite grievously so. David had Uriah the Hittite, a faithful ultimately loyal officer in his army killed so he could steal his wife. 2 Sam: 11-12 An abominable eye popping double whammy of sin to be sure. When Nathan confronts David about this he crumbles in self loathing repentance leaving us the quintessential model for how this is done in the 51st Psalm. David is called a man after God’s heart by God himself. He is repeatedly referred to as “the man of God” all over the old testament. Jesus is called “Son of David”. David was forgiven, not because he jumped through a bunch of ritualistic hoops, but because he fell on his face and begged mercy of the holy God he had offended. David had a better understanding of “grace through faith” than most modern day Christians.
Living the process of forsaking sin, putting off the old man and putting on the new, along with all the works of righteousness, including bringing the Gospel to a lost world, are the result of having been saved by grace though faith, not of works lest any man should boast Eph. 2:8-9. They are not the means to it.
On the other hand works in themselves prove nothing. Jesus is talking about false prophets in Matt. 7 when he says you’ll know them by their fruits. He tells the crowd there that people will prophesy, cast out demons and perform miracles in His very name and he will command them to depart telling them that he never knew them. Paul everywhere drills his readers with the truth that righteousness comes not by the works of the law. Even using Abraham, the father of Israel, as a prime example calling him “the believer” because he believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
Faith is what saves and it IS the gift of God. Christ is the author and finisher/perfecter of our faith. Heb. 12:2. A transformed life and works of righteousness are the fruits of the spirit manifesting themselves in the new creature in Christ.
There cannot be one without the other and neither can be found in a false gospel or a false god. I may bring controversy even with those here I consider brothers with this next statement, but in this context I’m gonna say it anyway. I firmly believe, completely contrary to what is most commonly held in modern christendom, that it is the arminian and pelagian misunderstandings within contemporary Christianity that have rendered the church nearly powerless to externally effect individuals and societies. It was the reformation faith of Paul, Augustine, Calvin, the Westminster divines and Whitfield that took the colonies by storm and paved the way for the American revolution. A thing that pacifist JW’s will probably hold as evidence against it.
The bottom line is your points are well taken and you’ve been done a disservice by those who should know better. Nobody can change that, but the faith once for all delivered to the saints stands on the name and authority of God Himself despite the hypocrisy of some claiming it as their own.
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I would be lying if I said I haven’t learned anything from this thread, many things that have been said (especially from yourself) have really made me do some self examination. It amazes me how much I can relate to what you say, and yet our beliefs are quite different?
I know this sounds funny coming from someone young (I’m 26), but I too have been through some humbling experiences. Funny enough, one was the very one that I mentioned (disfellowshiping). I lived a worldly lifestyle for some time, before I decided that enough was enough (I was pretty badly depressed). Feeling pretty low and dejected, I decided that I would start doing some bible reading (as a last resort). I absolutely loved it (whereas before it didn’t seem to mean much to me). I found myself wanting to read the bible every day, and I soaked everything up and pondered on it for ages - I started on the CEV, it was pretty easy to understand for my simple brain ;). Then, when I finally plucked up the courage (like a little boy who’d been told off) sheepishly I started praying to God. Because of reading the bible and starting to properly have respect for God, I began to feel even more guilty about the way of life I had been living. So, I poured my heart out to God (was quite emotional - and I thought of ancient King David)…I just wanted to say how much I was sorry and that I wanted to be a better person to show appreciation for the Creator of life. Once I’d done this, I felt an overwhelming sensation come over me! It was a peaceful feeling, and I felt God forgiving me (I don’t want to go into too much detail…let’s just say that there was such a feeling of feedback which I had never truly felt before).
To cut a long story short, what I’m trying to say is that this whole experience made me turn my life around (got married to the girlfriend I was living with, started controlling my mind, started to rely on God more than just myself especially in decision making, prayed regularly, stopped watching porn…“ehum”…moving on…); it made me so enthusiastic for doing what God deserves from us. Growing up, I’ve never had much confidence in myself, in fact, I’ve always had an inferiority complex (this complex has often caused me to “give up on myself” in the past…I’ve never felt good enough)…so when I felt like God was saying that I’ve been forgiven, it was so overwhelming! I was absolutely full of gratitude, and doing things like living a godly lifestyle, preaching and going to church now became a pleasure rather than a “chore”…Things don’t always go smoothly even now, but that’s just life - the main thing is it’s far better with God in your life.
Anyway, sorry for babbling away about myself there! Just thought it would be interesting to say. It’s been a pleasure talking, and I must say that I’m not used to speaking to one’s who seem to “get it” 