[quote]mse2us wrote:
Irish…I don’t want to sound like a jerk but you think you know a lot more than you actually do. Your post above is the perfect example of this. You don’t understand what it means to be perfect vs imperfect and the purpose of Jesus having to be a human . Adam and Eve were created perfect as well as all of Jehovah’s spirit beings. Before Adam and Eve sinned they did not have any physical or mental defects. God created all of his intelligent creatures as free moral agents with the privilege and responsibility of making a personal decision as to what course they will take. Perfect beings can choose to take the right course or the wrong course. Saying a perfect being could not make a wrong moral decision is like saying that an imperfect being such as we humans could not make a right moral decision. We all know that this is not the case because imperfect humans regularly choose to make right moral decisions when it comes to obedience to God even if it means suffering persecution to do so. So choosing to break God’s command is not what made Adam and Eve imperfect. Breaking God’s law made them sin but not imperfect; there’s a difference. They did not become imperfect until God sentenced them to death at Genesis 3:17-19. The moment they started to die was the moment they became imperfect and in this imperfect dying state, as they had children, this imperfection was passed to them. On the other hand, Satan and his demons weren’t sentenced to the same type of death sentence as Adam and Eve. When they chose the wrong moral course none of them gradually started to die. So they remained in the same state they were in before they chose to go against God. When they die they are destroyed by God by being thrown into the symbolic Lake of Fire and Sulpher which symbolizes eternal death.
You’re making the common mistake of thinking that perfection means thinking that everything called “perfect” is perfect to an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. This type of perfection to an absolute sense if for God Almighty only. Because of this Jesus could say of his Father at Mark 10:18 that “Nobody is good, except one, God.” All of God’s ways are perfect and just and it is impossible for God to lie. God can do whatever he chooses without limitation. On the other hand humans were created perfect in a relative sense meaning it is not absolute. When God finished making man he said it was good. But Adam and Eve in their perfect state still had limitation meaning if they ate dirt, wood, rocks they would suffer bad effects; if they tried to breathe under water they would drown. They were “good” in God’s eyes because they fulfilled the purpose he created them for which was to live on earth, never get sick and die and to obey him. God being satisfied with his creation shows that in his eyes they were the exact way he wanted them.
Due to Adam’s sin that was passed to all of his descendants we are now held captive to sin and death. In order to be released or redeemed from sin and death’s captivity a ransom had to be paid. The price was a sacrifice that had to correspond to Adam’s perfect human life meaning Jesus had to be the exact equal to Adam which is why he had to be born a perfect human free from blemish. Only then could Jesus’ sacrifice pay the price to release AdamÃ?¢??s offspring from the debt, disability, and enslavement into which their first father Adam had sold them.
This fits with Jehovah’s perfect sense of justice which is “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” or a “soul for a soul.” Meaning the price paid has to equal what was lost. If the heavens can’t contain God and his glory then there is no way a flesh and blood human body could contain God and all his glory. And even if it could this would in no way meet God’s perfect sense of “eye for an eye” justice because God Almighty, the Sovereign Lord of the Universe would never equal Adam. God’s life would be infinitely greater than Adams and would not correspond to Adam’s so no God would not come down in human form to redeem mankind.
The trinity doctrine devalues the price God paid and the love he showed mankind. The ransom provision magnified God’s love and mercy in that he met his own requirements at tremendous cost to himself, giving the life of his own Son to provide the redemption price. This is highlighted at John 3:16 which states “God love the world so much that he gave his only begotten son.” Romans 5:6-8 states: “For, indeed, Christ, while we were yet weak, died for ungodly men at the appointed time. 7 For hardly will anyone die for a righteous man; indeed, for the good man, perhaps, someone even dares to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Notice that both of those passages DO NOT state God gave himself or that God died for us. The passages states it was Jesus and it links Jesus’ death for us humans with God’s love. Giving oneself is a great sacrifice but giving a child that you love is even greater. How so? A loving parent, if given the chance, will always sacrifice himself instead of his children. And that is because it would cause more pain to see ones loving child suffer and die than oneself suffer and die. I can attest to this because I would easily give my daughters the last parachute instead of myself if we were in a plane going down. So the trinity doctrine is saying that it was not God’s son he sacrificed but it was actually himself so the love he emphasizes and links to him giving his son for the redemption of humans is actually a lie and he is exaggerating the value of his sacrifice and making it higher than it actually is. What I mean is that the trinity doctrine basically says that God gave a part of himself instead of his actual son and then lied when he said that he gave his son, to make it seem like he made the ultimate sacrifice. If that were the case he would be a liar. This of course is an impossibility. God’s love is shown and emphasized by the fact that he gave his only begotten son not himself.
Irish, unfortunately the results of discussing anything when there are different views on this type of forum causes a huge rift between the two people that just gets bigger and bigger. Again, you need to open your heart and mind and take a sincere look at your beliefs because when you say “plain reading and reasoning” you’re saying this about a doctrine that Trinitarians admit is mysterious, confusing and too high for humans to fully comprehend. Be honest man, the words “plain reading and reasoning” should never be used to describe a teaching such as the Trinity.[/quote]
My point was that Jesus contained ALL of the FULLNESS of God - no one but God can contain the FULLNESS of God - if an angel could contain the ALL of the FULLNESS of GOD, then an angel would be just as powerful, holy, holy, perfect, righteous, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresnet, immutable as God himself . . .
Colossians 2:9
Actual Greek Text:
hoti en auto katoikei pan to pleroma tes theotetos somatikos
Literal translation:
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Deity Bodily
The actual words:
HOTI: for, because
EN: in
AUTO: him, himself
KATOIKEI: from KATOIKEO meaning to live, to dwell, to reside, more technically it refers to the “permanently residing” as distinquished from “sojourners”. I tis a verb in the Indicative Present Active - this means the action is continuing to occur.
PAN: from PAS meaning the whole, all
PLEROMA: the sum total, fullness, even the super-abundance
TES: The
THEOTES: Deity, the state of being God, Godhead
SOMATIKOS: bodily form, corporeal
So that when taken as a whole the passage is translated:
“Because in Him dwells pemanently all of the sum total of the state of being God in bodily form”
No angel can claim that power.
