Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

mse2us - onto point # 2 I’m not going to respond to the majority of your comments for brevity’s sake, I will just place the nail in the coffin on this one really quickly.

You agreed that “At Joel 2:32 the verse uses the name Jehovah and at Romans 10:13 the verse uses the name Jehovah in regards to calling on his name to be saved.” You went on to say that “So the proof that can’t be ignored is not proof because in both account use Jehovah’s name.”

The point is that you have to call on Jehovah to be saved, and ONLY by calling on HIS NAME can you be saved.

And now I will direct your attention to Acts 4:10-12 which plainly states:

“let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that BY THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth, . . . by Him this man stands here before you whole. . . . Nor IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER, for there is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN given among men BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED.”

You’ve already agreed that calling on Jehovah is the only name by which we can be saved, and Acts says Jesus’ name is the only name by which we can be saved - so either the Bible is not true, or Jesus and Jehovah are the same person.

Here’s a few others Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD (Jehovah) and beside me there is no SAVIOUR” linked to the angelic witness of Jesus’s birth in Luke 2:11 "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a SAVIOUR which is CHRIST (MESSIAH) the LORD (JEHOVAH).

There you have it as plain as can be:

One name for salvation - Jehovah and Jesus - have to be the same
One Saviour - Jehovah and Jesus - have to be the same

no inference - just plain statements

And to your comments about Jesus being a lesser God, let me direct you back to Isaiah 43 and verse 10:

“ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

sorry, my friend - someone has been feeding you some bad biblical teaching

262

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< you have multiple Gods. >>>[/quote]
Ohhhhhh no they don’t. They have one God and one god. The first and greatest creation of Jehovah, preeminent above all else, exalted and firstborn. worthy of praise adoration from both men and angels, but created nonetheless.[/quote]

The have one God, and multiple gods and lords, and they are all divine. I picked this one up from both mse2us and Honest_Lifter.

263

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]

x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.

Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]

Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]

D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.[/quote]

My only interaction with JWs are you and mse2us, so the only place I got these thoughts are from you two. You have told me countless times that the 144k will rule with Jesus in heaven over the rest of the faithful on earth. The only thing that makes the 144k more special than the faithful are their works. Am I wrong? So your works are what allows you to get into heaven. It is not the grace you beleive in but your own works.[/quote]

You are wrong. Reread the posts we made. Especially the one I just made about works. But to be sure, you are wrong.[/quote]

So all you can come back with is, “D you are wrong?” Good come back. So if I am wrong as you suggest what makes the 144k different from the rest?[/quote]

I am not trying to give a comeback. I am asking you to reread what we wrote. I am saying you read it wrong. We can get into what makes the 144000 different, but lets take this one point at a time. [/quote]

First, I need you to answer my question because it deals with context of your question? [/quote]

How?

*edit[/quote]

Since you guys always use this question I thought I would try it out. I will get to your question now of How?

If the 144k are better than the rest what distingishes them to be better? They have the same sin, they have the same Jehovah, they were conceived with the same sinful sperm of man. What makes them better?

There you go there is the context.

264

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]

x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.

Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]

Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]

D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.[/quote]

My only interaction with JWs are you and mse2us, so the only place I got these thoughts are from you two. You have told me countless times that the 144k will rule with Jesus in heaven over the rest of the faithful on earth. The only thing that makes the 144k more special than the faithful are their works. Am I wrong? So your works are what allows you to get into heaven. It is not the grace you beleive in but your own works.[/quote]

You are wrong. Reread the posts we made. Especially the one I just made about works. But to be sure, you are wrong.[/quote]

So all you can come back with is, “D you are wrong?” Good come back. So if I am wrong as you suggest what makes the 144k different from the rest?[/quote]

I am not trying to give a comeback. I am asking you to reread what we wrote. I am saying you read it wrong. We can get into what makes the 144000 different, but lets take this one point at a time. [/quote]

First, I need you to answer my question because it deals with context of your question? [/quote]

How?

*edit[/quote]

Since you guys always use this question I thought I would try it out. I will get to your question now of How?

If the 144k are better than the rest what distingishes them to be better? They have the same sin, they have the same Jehovah, they were conceived with the same sinful sperm of man. What makes them better?

There you go there is the context.[/quote]

Please quote either mse2us or myself where it says that the 144000 are better. You said all you got about witnesses was from us, so please quote one of us.

265

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]

x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.

Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]

Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]

D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.[/quote]

My only interaction with JWs are you and mse2us, so the only place I got these thoughts are from you two. You have told me countless times that the 144k will rule with Jesus in heaven over the rest of the faithful on earth. The only thing that makes the 144k more special than the faithful are their works. Am I wrong? So your works are what allows you to get into heaven. It is not the grace you beleive in but your own works.[/quote]

You are wrong. Reread the posts we made. Especially the one I just made about works. But to be sure, you are wrong.[/quote]

So all you can come back with is, “D you are wrong?” Good come back. So if I am wrong as you suggest what makes the 144k different from the rest?[/quote]

I am not trying to give a comeback. I am asking you to reread what we wrote. I am saying you read it wrong. We can get into what makes the 144000 different, but lets take this one point at a time. [/quote]

First, I need you to answer my question because it deals with context of your question? [/quote]

How?

*edit[/quote]

Since you guys always use this question I thought I would try it out. I will get to your question now of How?

If the 144k are better than the rest what distingishes them to be better? They have the same sin, they have the same Jehovah, they were conceived with the same sinful sperm of man. What makes them better?

There you go there is the context.[/quote]

Please quote either mse2us or myself where it says that the 144000 are better. You said all you got about witnesses was from us, so please quote one of us.[/quote]

So you beleive that sin is passed from man to child through the sperm? I have used that term in another thread and you did not correct me. You have not corrected me now.

On to your question. If they are not better, then what gives them right to rule over you. They must be better at something that would raise them higher than you. I might be reading between the lines, but it is inferred that they are better than you.

266

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[
Please quote either mse2us or myself where it says that the 144000 are better. You said all you got about witnesses was from us, so please quote one of us.[/quote]

Is a quote necessary though? If the 144,000 get to rule with Christ and no one else does, what then makes them better suited for that position than any other?

Out of curiosity, are the 144,000 already determined?

267

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[
Please quote either mse2us or myself where it says that the 144000 are better. You said all you got about witnesses was from us, so please quote one of us.[/quote]

Is a quote necessary though? If the 144,000 get to rule with Christ and no one else does, what then makes them better suited for that position than any other?

Out of curiosity, are the 144,000 already determined?[/quote]

See this kind of stuff amazes me. You have no problem drawing your conclusions. "If this equals this, and that is that, then this must be the conclusion.

However, someone uses a scripture as clear as 1 Cor 11:3

“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

and that one doesn’t mean a thing. “This thought is contradictory to what we have been taught and therefore must be wrong”; instead of using a scripture as clear as this (and there are others) as a backbone in forming your belief about the positions of Jesus and God.

That being said -and it wasn’t directed at you personally- yes, a quote is required, because dmaddox has gotten in the habit of misquoting us up and down the thread and we have to keep going through and correcting him.

268

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[
Please quote either mse2us or myself where it says that the 144000 are better. You said all you got about witnesses was from us, so please quote one of us.[/quote]

Is a quote necessary though? If the 144,000 get to rule with Christ and no one else does, what then makes them better suited for that position than any other?

Out of curiosity, are the 144,000 already determined?[/quote]

See this kind of stuff amazes me. You have no problem drawing your conclusions. "If this equals this, and that is that, then this must be the conclusion.

However, someone uses a scripture as clear as 1 Cor 11:3

“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

and that one doesn’t mean a thing. “This thought is contradictory to what we have been taught and therefore must be wrong”; instead of using a scripture as clear as this (and there are others) as a backbone in forming your belief about the positions of Jesus and God.

That being said -and it wasn’t directed at you personally- yes, a quote is required, because dmaddox has gotten in the habit of misquoting us up and down the thread and we have to keep going through and correcting him. [/quote]

So you are saying that you are not going to answer my question? My feelings are really hurt. You really hate me that much, or am I getting under your skin?

I am not going to follow the JW written dialogue that is published in the WatchTower. I have asked yall questions and you come up with some BS story about something. Then you attack Tribulus who actually read all of your books, and laid out a good history leason about the JWs. Then you guys take something from the WT and attack Catholics, and you never even read the book. Probably taken out of context like your ability to interpret the Bible. I would call this a double standard. You might as well stick with me JWs because the other Christians on this website are way out of yall’s league.

I will say I am honored that you two keep using my name.

269

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[
Please quote either mse2us or myself where it says that the 144000 are better. You said all you got about witnesses was from us, so please quote one of us.[/quote]

Is a quote necessary though? If the 144,000 get to rule with Christ and no one else does, what then makes them better suited for that position than any other?

Out of curiosity, are the 144,000 already determined?[/quote]

See this kind of stuff amazes me. You have no problem drawing your conclusions. "If this equals this, and that is that, then this must be the conclusion.

However, someone uses a scripture as clear as 1 Cor 11:3

“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

and that one doesn’t mean a thing. “This thought is contradictory to what we have been taught and therefore must be wrong”; instead of using a scripture as clear as this (and there are others) as a backbone in forming your belief about the positions of Jesus and God.

That being said -and it wasn’t directed at you personally- yes, a quote is required, because dmaddox has gotten in the habit of misquoting us up and down the thread and we have to keep going through and correcting him. [/quote]

We’ll do this your way, one point at a time. Are the 144,000 already chosen? Yes or no.

270

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:
<<< Then you attack Tribulus who actually read all of your books, >>>[/quote]
Well let’s don’t get carried away. “All” may be a bit overstated, but I know what you meant. I did in fact own every single book ever published by the society except one which name escapes me at the moment along with several hundred Watchtower and Awake magazines including a large number of old ones before they went full color. This one I still have. Terrible shot… sorry.

271

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[
Please quote either mse2us or myself where it says that the 144000 are better. You said all you got about witnesses was from us, so please quote one of us.[/quote]

Is a quote necessary though? If the 144,000 get to rule with Christ and no one else does, what then makes them better suited for that position than any other?

Out of curiosity, are the 144,000 already determined?[/quote]

See this kind of stuff amazes me. You have no problem drawing your conclusions. "If this equals this, and that is that, then this must be the conclusion.

However, someone uses a scripture as clear as 1 Cor 11:3

“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

and that one doesn’t mean a thing. “This thought is contradictory to what we have been taught and therefore must be wrong”; instead of using a scripture as clear as this (and there are others) as a backbone in forming your belief about the positions of Jesus and God.

That being said -and it wasn’t directed at you personally- yes, a quote is required, because dmaddox has gotten in the habit of misquoting us up and down the thread and we have to keep going through and correcting him. [/quote]

We’ll do this your way, one point at a time. Are the 144,000 already chosen? Yes or no.

[/quote]

Yes

272

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
[

We’ll do this your way, one point at a time. Are the 144,000 already chosen? Yes or no.

[/quote]

Yes[/quote]

Who chose them?

273

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[
Please quote either mse2us or myself where it says that the 144000 are better. You said all you got about witnesses was from us, so please quote one of us.[/quote]

Is a quote necessary though? If the 144,000 get to rule with Christ and no one else does, what then makes them better suited for that position than any other?

Out of curiosity, are the 144,000 already determined?[/quote]

See this kind of stuff amazes me. You have no problem drawing your conclusions. "If this equals this, and that is that, then this must be the conclusion.

However, someone uses a scripture as clear as 1 Cor 11:3

“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

and that one doesn’t mean a thing. “This thought is contradictory to what we have been taught and therefore must be wrong”; instead of using a scripture as clear as this (and there are others) as a backbone in forming your belief about the positions of Jesus and God.

That being said -and it wasn’t directed at you personally- yes, a quote is required, because dmaddox has gotten in the habit of misquoting us up and down the thread and we have to keep going through and correcting him. [/quote]

So you are saying that you are not going to answer my question? My feelings are really hurt. You really hate me that much, or am I getting under your skin?

I am not going to follow the JW written dialogue that is published in the WatchTower. I have asked yall questions and you come up with some BS story about something. Then you attack Tribulus who actually read all of your books, and laid out a good history leason about the JWs. Then you guys take something from the WT and attack Catholics, and you never even read the book. Probably taken out of context like your ability to interpret the Bible. I would call this a double standard. You might as well stick with me JWs because the other Christians on this website are way out of yall’s league.

I will say I am honored that you two keep using my name.[/quote]

If your intention is to get under my skin, you have failed. I am here aren’t I?

Now, that being said, just quote us when you make statements about our faith and what we believe. I have a feeling we are going to see a lot less commentary on our religion from you.

274

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
[

We’ll do this your way, one point at a time. Are the 144,000 already chosen? Yes or no.

[/quote]

Yes[/quote]

Who chose them?[/quote]

Jehovah. (given the simplicity of the answers, there is obviously more to say on the subject and the answers are not this cut and dry.)

275

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
[

We’ll do this your way, one point at a time. Are the 144,000 already chosen? Yes or no.

[/quote]

Yes[/quote]

Who chose them?[/quote]

Jehovah. (given the simplicity of the answers, there is obviously more to say on the subject and the answers are not this cut and dry.)
[/quote]

Agreed, but this sets the baseline. Does anyone in the Jehovah’s Witness church know who any of the 144,000 are?

276

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
[

We’ll do this your way, one point at a time. Are the 144,000 already chosen? Yes or no.

[/quote]

Yes[/quote]

Who chose them?[/quote]

Jehovah. (given the simplicity of the answers, there is obviously more to say on the subject and the answers are not this cut and dry.)
[/quote]

Agreed, but this sets the baseline. Does anyone in the Jehovah’s Witness church know who any of the 144,000 are?[/quote]

Definitively, no. It is between them and Jehovah. Is this questioning going anywhere specific?

277

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
mse2us - onto point # 2 I’m not going to respond to the majority of your comments for brevity’s sake, I will just place the nail in the coffin on this one really quickly.

You agreed that “At Joel 2:32 the verse uses the name Jehovah and at Romans 10:13 the verse uses the name Jehovah in regards to calling on his name to be saved.” You went on to say that “So the proof that can’t be ignored is not proof because in both account use Jehovah’s name.”

The point is that you have to call on Jehovah to be saved, and ONLY by calling on HIS NAME can you be saved.

And now I will direct your attention to Acts 4:10-12 which plainly states:

“let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that BY THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth, . . . by Him this man stands here before you whole. . . . Nor IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER, for there is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN given among men BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED.”

You’ve already agreed that calling on Jehovah is the only name by which we can be saved, and Acts says Jesus’ name is the only name by which we can be saved - so either the Bible is not true, or Jesus and Jehovah are the same person.

Here’s a few others Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD (Jehovah) and beside me there is no SAVIOUR” linked to the angelic witness of Jesus’s birth in Luke 2:11 "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a SAVIOUR which is CHRIST (MESSIAH) the LORD (JEHOVAH).

There you have it as plain as can be:

One name for salvation - Jehovah and Jesus - have to be the same
One Saviour - Jehovah and Jesus - have to be the same

no inference - just plain statements

And to your comments about Jesus being a lesser God, let me direct you back to Isaiah 43 and verse 10:

“ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

sorry, my friend - someone has been feeding you some bad biblical teaching[/quote]
I’m sorry for you as well Irish. There’s no point in going back and forth trying to explain the inferences you are using that you think prove God is Jesus.

Did you know that at one time Jesus did not exist? Yes the Bible states Jesus is a created being. Irish do you know who Wisdom is at Proverbs 8? I’m sure you don’t since you thing Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

Before I show you who wisdom is. How do we know that the Word in John chapter 1 is Jesus? One way we know is by reading the passage you see that the Word does what we know Jesus did, but no where in the book of John is Jesus identified as the word. Someone actually argued in one of these threads that the Word was not Jesus but it was really logic. Somethings in the Bible aren’t clearly stated and you have to go to other parts of the Bible to get a better understanding. In identifying the Word all one has to do is turn to Revelation 19:13 and you will read that he is called the Word of God.

The exact same thing can be applied to Wisdom. 1 Corinthians 1:20-23 states:
“21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

Colosians 2:2,3(NIV):
“My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”

1 Corinthians 1:30(NIV):
“It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godâ??that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.”

Wisdom at Proverbs chapter 8 is none other than Jesus in his prehuman existence.

Proverbs 8:24-28(NAB):
"22 "The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; 23 From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains or springs of water; 25 Before the mountains were settled into place, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet the earth and the fields were not made, nor the first clods of the world.
27 “When he established the heavens I was there, when he marked out the vault over the face of the deep; 28 When he made firm the skies above, when he fixed fast the foundations of the earth; 29 When he set for the sea its limit, so that the waters should not transgress his command; 30 8 Then was I beside him as his craftsman, and I was his delight day by day,Playing before him all the while, 31 playing on the surface of his earth; and I found delight in the sons of men.”

This passage is obviously talking about a spirit being in heaven who was the first thing God created. This spirit being was with God before he created the heavens and the earth and when God started to prepare the heavens and the earth this spirit being was with God at his side. This spirit being then became God’s CRAFTSMAN meaning that through this CRAFTSMAN God used him to create what he prepared. This spirit being is called Wisdom and Wisdom is identified as Jesus in his pre-human existence.

Now are there any scriptures that show Jesus doing any of the things mentioned above? Absolutely!

Jesus is a created spirit being(Proverbs 8:22-25)

Colossian 1:15(NAB):
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”

Revelation 3:14(KJV)
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God”

I’m sure Irish that you already know that the Amen and Faithful and True Witness is Jesus.

Jesus was at God’s side before the earth was created(Proverbs 8:26-30)

Jesus said he was at his fathers side at John 17:5:
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”

All things created through Jesus(Proverbs 8:30)

Jesus was at God’s side as his Craftsman or Masterworker as some translation render it.

John 1:3:
“3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”

Colossians 1:16(NIV):
“For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”

Hebrews 1:1,2:
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe

Truly a Craftsman or Masterworker. Jesus was at God’s side when he prepared the heavens and earth and used Jesus as a Craftsman to create all things.

1 Corinthians 8:6 distinguishes between God the creator and Jesus the Craftsman:
"4 Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords, 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him”

One God out of all things are meaning as Proverbs 8:27-29 points out he prepared the heavens and earth.

One Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things are as Proverbs 8:30 points out Jesus was the Craftsman.

Unfortunately, when people are taught to believe the unreasonable or something that is to high for humans to comprehend which Trinitarians admit no amount of reasoning from the Bible can change their mind. Their doctrine is grounded and explained as being mysterious so when one has faith in this type of reasoning it can affect how one views other Bible doctrines. For example, the Bible clearly states that the penalty inherited from Adam is death and the penalty that was passed to all his descendants is death as well; not eternal torment in Hell fire. But when a person chooses to ignore clearly stated scriptures and believe something that is not clearly stated and has to be inferred upon. This can affect how one reasons from the Bible.

Irish, do me a favor when you get a chance please, go to this link and go to my post at 10:21 am and 4:58 pm and tell me what you think about the way I explained from the Bible the condition of the dead.

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[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
[

We’ll do this your way, one point at a time. Are the 144,000 already chosen? Yes or no.

[/quote]

Yes[/quote]

Who chose them?[/quote]

Jehovah. (given the simplicity of the answers, there is obviously more to say on the subject and the answers are not this cut and dry.)
[/quote]

Agreed, but this sets the baseline. Does anyone in the Jehovah’s Witness church know who any of the 144,000 are?[/quote]

Definitively, no. It is between them and Jehovah. Is this questioning going anywhere specific?[/quote]

Yes, it’s going somewhere. Initially I’m educating myself here.

Do any of these 144,000 know they are chosen?

279

Honest, I’d like to continue this conversation, but I’m not going to be at my desk for a few days.

280

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
[

We’ll do this your way, one point at a time. Are the 144,000 already chosen? Yes or no.

[/quote]

Yes[/quote]

Who chose them?[/quote]

Jehovah. (given the simplicity of the answers, there is obviously more to say on the subject and the answers are not this cut and dry.)
[/quote]

Agreed, but this sets the baseline. Does anyone in the Jehovah’s Witness church know who any of the 144,000 are?[/quote]

Definitively, no. It is between them and Jehovah. Is this questioning going anywhere specific?[/quote]

Yes, it’s going somewhere. Initially I’m educating myself here.

Do any of these 144,000 know they are chosen?[/quote]

All of them.