I am still confused a little, so please bare with me. Are you saying that all of us are born perfect? And that we all choose to sin later? You mention spiritually dead, and that we inherited it. What does that mean to you.
Side question. Are you saying that if none of us commit a sin (hypothetically) then we won’t get sick, get old or die?[/quote]
Perfect? hardly, merely blank - our lives are yet to be lived, choices yet to be made - but we are spiritually dead.
We inherited our spiritual deadness because of Adam’s sin - this goes back to your use of Romnas 5:12 - because Adam sinned, sin entered the world. because of the presence of sin, God shut the garden and expelled man from his presence - this seperation from God is neccesitated by His perfection, he would immediately destroy a sinful man by His mere presence.
Now since Adam broke mankind’s fellowship with God by introducing sin into the world, death (spiritual) has passed onto all men as the verse indicates. We are condemned to be born not knowing the presence of God or having fellowship with Him. We can learn about Him and seek Him, but we are born separated from Him.
I am still confused a little, so please bare with me. Are you saying that all of us are born perfect? And that we all choose to sin later? You mention spiritually dead, and that we inherited it. What does that mean to you.
Side question. Are you saying that if none of us commit a sin (hypothetically) then we won’t get sick, get old or die?[/quote]
Perfect? hardly, merely blank - our lives are yet to be lived, choices yet to be made - but we are spiritually dead.
We inherited our spiritual deadness because of Adam’s sin - this goes back to your use of Romnas 5:12 - because Adam sinned, sin entered the world. because of the presence of sin, God shut the garden and expelled man from his presence - this seperation from God is neccesitated by His perfection, he would immediately destroy a sinful man by His mere presence.
Now since Adam broke mankind’s fellowship with God by introducing sin into the world, death (spiritual) has passed onto all men as the verse indicates. We are condemned to be born not knowing the presence of God or having fellowship with Him. We can learn about Him and seek Him, but we are born separated from Him.[/quote]
Now since you are attributing the death to a spiritual death. What do you feel about the body? Do you feel that if we could go our lives without sinning, that we would never grown old, get sick and die?
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Not quite sure what you are asking for, you don’t agree that we choose to sin individually?[/quote]
Well, obviously I don’t agree that we can choose to sin. I put earlier, based on Romans 5:12 that our hand was forced, and we inherited sin.
My question, hopefully put more direct here is this: Romans 3:23 says “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Why do you add the word choose in there?[/quote]
Hmm, we seem to be going in circles - I don’t see a forced hand in Romans 5:12. I see the simple declarative that we all sin - no force implied. What gives you the idea that sin is forced upon us? I have never seen any passage in Scripture that states we are forced to sin and our free will is negated by this force . . . have you?[/quote]
Not to get all theoretical, but hear me out please. You are saying that we choose to sin, but that it is possible for us to not sin. However, the scriptures do show that all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. How does that leave room for the idea that we can choose not to sin?
Ps 51:5 NIV says it nicely.
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”
Maybe we are viewing sin in 2 different ways? I am talking about inherited sin; the sin that causes us to “miss the mark” of perfection, which therefore leads to death. [/quote]
May I ask a quick question? Here is a hypothetical possiblitly that we all see everyday in the gym. We are working out on the bench and a fine speciman of the opposite sex sits down at the peck deck infront of us. We have a choice. We can either sit there and drool while admiring the creation that God has given us, or we can stand up walk over to the water fountain and wait for her to complete her workout. This is a choice whether to sin or not to sin. I personally would be weak and sit there and admire God’s creation. I have chosen to sin. Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Did Adam cause me to sin, or did I chose to sin?
[/quote]
Yep, that is why I asked the clarifying question. I was thinking that was the type of sin being talked about. I am refering to the inherited sin. The sin that causes us to get old, to get sick and to die. If you are refering to the other sin, then yes we have a choice at those moments what we will choose to do.[/quote]
To me we are born sinful, or the propensity to sin, but it is our choice to sin that condemns our souls. I know you do not believe in being eternally damned.
On another note, not being Catholic I really struggle with Original Sin, so I guess I need to do some more research on this subject. I will take guidance only from my Christian Brothers and Sisters if there are any of them on here.[/quote]
D, I was thinking about what you said about how you don’t feel we need to do works to gain our reward. You shared scriptures that show that our only salvation is from Christ, which I agree with. However, then we have scriptures like “faith without works is dead” and then we have this scripture:
James 2:14-25 NIV
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatâ??and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
When I see scriptures like those, I can’t just ignore them. I thought of a way to try and explain to you how works fall into play in salvation, because the Bible clearly is showing some our necessary. We just have to reconcile it with the other scriptures that show that we cannot reach salvation of our own accord.
This is from a personal experience:
My friend had some tumors that were growing along her spine. They were extremely painful and caused her much distress and discomfort. She went to the doctor, and the doctor said that he could remove them. However, because she is a diabetic, before they could do the surgery, she needed to get her blood sugar down. They gave her two months and then she had another check up. She tried eating healthy, and taking care of herself to bring it down, but when she went back, the doctor told her that she hadn’t done enough because her blood sugar was too high still and so she couldn’t have the surgery. He make an appointment two months later for another check up. This time, she asked me if I could help her with her diet. Of course I a agreed and with her hard work and my direction, she got her blood sugar down in the allotted time, and she was cleared to have the surgery (which she had and everything went great).
My point in that story is this: The doctor said that for her to have the surgery, she needed to do something. She needed to bring her blood sugar down. Now, was reducing the blood sugar alone going to get rid of the tumors? Absolutely not! However, that doesn’t mean they were not essential to getting her “reward”, in this case her tumors removed.
The same thing with us. Obviously, nothing we can do can get rid of sin that we inherited in our body. No amount of works will do anything. However, that isn’t to say that we weren’t required to do any works. The scriptures above show the importance of works. The works are equivalent to us bringing down our blood sugar. It is still essential.[/quote]
sola fide
I like the book of James, but I tend to side with Martin Luther on it being an epistle of straw.
I am still confused a little, so please bare with me. Are you saying that all of us are born perfect? And that we all choose to sin later? You mention spiritually dead, and that we inherited it. What does that mean to you.
Side question. Are you saying that if none of us commit a sin (hypothetically) then we won’t get sick, get old or die?[/quote]
Perfect? hardly, merely blank - our lives are yet to be lived, choices yet to be made - but we are spiritually dead.
We inherited our spiritual deadness because of Adam’s sin - this goes back to your use of Romnas 5:12 - because Adam sinned, sin entered the world. because of the presence of sin, God shut the garden and expelled man from his presence - this seperation from God is neccesitated by His perfection, he would immediately destroy a sinful man by His mere presence.
Now since Adam broke mankind’s fellowship with God by introducing sin into the world, death (spiritual) has passed onto all men as the verse indicates. We are condemned to be born not knowing the presence of God or having fellowship with Him. We can learn about Him and seek Him, but we are born separated from Him.[/quote]
Now since you are attributing the death to a spiritual death. What do you feel about the body? Do you feel that if we could go our lives without sinning, that we would never grown old, get sick and die? [/quote]
What does that have to do with our discussion? - this is a definite side issue.
But since you’re here - a sinless man never has to die physically - That is why Christ’s death was a sacrifice - he took on himself the our sin and became sin for us and was cut off from God (spiritual death) and suffered agonizing physical death, because he chose to do so, not because he had to prior to becoming our sacrifice.
the getting old and sickness? Aging and sickness are consequences of the taint of sin on God’s creation. There is no escaping that here and it is why this world(creation) must eventually be destroyed and replaced with a new creation, just as our sinful bodies are glorifed at the resurrection to remove the taint of sin from our physical existence.
I’m sorry to have to ask, but you do know these things right? I’m having a hard time understanding how you could not know the basics of Christianity.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Here’s my points on the divinity of Jesus:
The OT prophesied a DIVINE Messiah: The Jews knew that the coming Messiah was GOD himself:
biblical passages include several Messianic Psalms - Psalm 2, Psalm 110 for examples. Isaih 7:14 gives the name of the Messiah as Immanueal = GOD WITH US. Isaiah 9:6 is a messianic prophecy declaring the deity of the Messiah “wonderful counselor, mighty God”. Micah 5:2 established that the Messiah existed since eternity (a Divine trait)
Jesus is called Jehovah - and I’ll just use LORD and not Lord for the JW’s sake: Psalm 23:1 - Jehovah is my Shepherd links to John 10:11 where Jesus calls himslef the Shepherd and supported by the writer of Hebrews on hebrews 13:20 where he states " brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Jehovah". Isaiah 6:5 recounts that Jehovah was lifted up and the Apostle John says in John 12:41 that Isaiah saw Christ’s glory. Most compelling of all is Jeremiah 23: 5-6 where Jehovah declares “and this is His name by which He will be called, Jehovah our righteousness.” And the final absolutely cannot be ignored proof - Joel 2:32 “whosoever calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved” - links to Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 where the only name we can call on for salvation is Jesus the Messiah - thus Jesus is Jehovah. (there cannot be two names, unless they are the same person).
Jesus possess all of the incommunnicable traits of God:
Eternal - Alpha and omega, beginning and the end - also see Micah 5:2
omnipresent - matthew 18:20 and matthew 28:20
omniscient - john 16:30, john 21:17, Revelation 2:23
omnipotent - Philippians 3:21, hebrews 1:3
immutable - hebrews 1:20-12, Hebrews 13:8
and finally Colossians 2:9 - for in Him all the Fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form.
Jesus does the work of God:
Created all things - John 1:3, Colossianss 1:16 and 17
Acts as divine providence - john 17:2, Ephesians 1:22
Forgives sins - Matthew 9:2-7. Mark 2:5-10
Raises the dead and conducts final judgement - John 5:22, Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31 and 2 Timothy 4:1
Jesus received worship - (Moses’ Law - worship no other gods") - Matthew 14:33, john 9:38, Matthew 28:9-18
and back the point that dmaddox has been trying to make - Hebrews 1:6 “and let all the angels of God (thus excluding Jesus as an angel) WORSHIP Him” - only one being is worthy of worship and that is God himself.
now - there are two other points - the Bible declares him to be God and He claims to be God, but those points have been endlessly debated here - I think my preceeding 5 points more than establish that Jesus is the Divine Messiah and thus God[/quote]
Quoted for mse2us.[/quote]
I’ve said this before, because of this Trinity doctrine developing in the fourth century from Babylonian and Egyptian beliefs there are now scriptures that do require further investigation to understand what the true meaning is. There is genuine confusion of the whether Jesus is God and some of the scriptures you mentioned Irish do warrant further investigation.
The Israelites were expecting the Messiah but they never thought he was God. Proof of this is the fact that the Jews thought he was claiming to be God at John 10:33 and of course this offended them so they wanted to kill Jesus because they thought he was blaspheming. If they were expecting God they would not have tried to kill him for making that statement.
When Jesus asked his disciple who they thought he was at Matthew 16:15,16 they did not say we think your God in the flesh or God Almighty. No. Peter said they thought he was the Christ son of the Living God. When one reads passages like this it’s easy to see why the trinity doctrine was not taught while the apostles were alive and did not develop until centuries after the apostles died.
Yes it is prophecied at Isaiah 7:14 that Jesus would be called Immanuel but that doesn’t mean he was God in the flesh. Despite that prophecy the apostles still thought he was the son of God not God himself. Also, it was a common practice among Jews to embody the word “God,” even “Jehovah,” in Hebrew names. With the coming of his Son to earth as the promised Messianic “seed” and rightful heir to the throne of David, God provided his greatest sign that he had not forsaken mankind or his Kingdom covenant. The title - name Immanuel, therefore, was particularly appropriate to Christ, for his presence was a sign from heaven that God was with his people.
Isaiah 9:6,7 is a great passage to use that shows Jesus is not God and is in a lesser position. He is given the title “Prince” which would never be applied to God Almighty and verse 7 shows that he sits on David’s throne which ruled over God’s people on earth which is exactly what Jesus will do as king of God’s kingdom. He is called Mighty god but not God Almighty. Yes while in heaven his is mighty spirit being. I’ll explain why it says Jesus is from times indefinite at Micah 5:2.
Jesus is never called Jehovah. Never. I looked up several translations and none call Jesus Jehovah at Hebrews 13:20.
Just because Jesus is called shepherd does not mean he is God Almighty. A figurative shepherd cares for his sheep represented by people. So they take care of their people. In the Bible, the term “shepherds” at times denotes the rulers and leaders of the Israelites, both faithful and unfaithful. Moses who was a good leader is called a shepherd at Isaiah 63:11 and at Jeremiah 23:1-4 God issues a warning to the bad rulers of Israel and he calls them shepherds. Even rulers of other nations such as Cyrus the Persian is called God’s shepherd at Isaiah 44:28. Even though Cyrus is called God’s shepherd that does not make him equal to or the same as God.
Your last paragraph in point 2 where you link what Jeremiah 23:5-6 where is states Jesus will be called Jehovah is our Righteousness is no basis for claiming, that this means that Jesus, the Messiah, and Jehovah are the same, forming one God. This can be seen from the fact that the similar Messianic prophecy at Jeremiah 33:14-16 applies the identical expression to Jerusalem, saying: “And this is what she will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.” In both cases the expression shows that God’s name, Jehovah, placed both upon his promised king and upon his chosen capital, is a guarantee of their righteousness. Moreover, the justice and righteousness coming from or expressed by these sources are the product of full devotion to Jehovah and his divine will, bringing Jehovahâ??s blessing and direction.
You have to understand Irish that God wanted the Israelites to know that this promised seed who was going to be the Messiah was provided by God and from God. He wanted them to know that when the promised Messiah arrived that God was with them, hence the name Immanuel. God wanted the Israelites to know that providing Jesus was due to God’s righteousness so once Jesus arrived on earth the Israelite would know that this was God’s righteous act. So once Jesus did become the Messiah when he was baptized the Israelite would have known that the source who furnished Jesus was God and not Jesus alone, he is with them and this is due to God’s rightoeusness. That is the main reason Jesus gave all glory and credit to God so that the Israelites could understand that God provided Jesus. Which is why John 3:16 states that “God loved the world so much that HE gave his only begotten son.” To further help the Israelites understand that this was God’s doing the promised Messiah took the name Jesus which means “Jehovah is Salvation.” Also, the disciples at John 16:30 said that due to Jesus’ power and the miracles he performed they believed that he “came from God,” not that he was God.
At Joel 2:32 the verse uses the name Jehovah and at Romans 10:13 the verse uses the name Jehovah in regards to calling on his name to be saved. So the proof that can’t be ignored is not proof because in both account use Jehovah’s name. You should know Irish that most Bibles removed God’s name Jehovah from most of the passages. If you don’t know do some research and you will see.
I’ll respond to points 3 and 4 in another post because this one is getting too long. (sarcasm)Man, why’d you have to write so much:)
Can you see how and why this teaching is not in the Bible and that this doctrine was not taught among the apostles and the other Christians in the first century. All of the points that you make that you think prove Jesus is God are all inferences. Meaning the process of arriving at some conclusion that, though it is not logically derivable from the assumed premises. None of the points specifically state Jesus is God. That is why this was not taught in the Christian congregation formed during the apostles and did not become a doctrine until centuries later. This is a historical fact.
Once I get back from lunch I reply to the other points.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]
x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.
Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Not quite sure what you are asking for, you don’t agree that we choose to sin individually?[/quote]
Well, obviously I don’t agree that we can choose to sin. I put earlier, based on Romans 5:12 that our hand was forced, and we inherited sin.
My question, hopefully put more direct here is this: Romans 3:23 says “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Why do you add the word choose in there?[/quote]
Hmm, we seem to be going in circles - I don’t see a forced hand in Romans 5:12. I see the simple declarative that we all sin - no force implied. What gives you the idea that sin is forced upon us? I have never seen any passage in Scripture that states we are forced to sin and our free will is negated by this force . . . have you?[/quote]
Not to get all theoretical, but hear me out please. You are saying that we choose to sin, but that it is possible for us to not sin. However, the scriptures do show that all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. How does that leave room for the idea that we can choose not to sin?
Ps 51:5 NIV says it nicely.
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me”
Maybe we are viewing sin in 2 different ways? I am talking about inherited sin; the sin that causes us to “miss the mark” of perfection, which therefore leads to death. [/quote]
May I ask a quick question? Here is a hypothetical possiblitly that we all see everyday in the gym. We are working out on the bench and a fine speciman of the opposite sex sits down at the peck deck infront of us. We have a choice. We can either sit there and drool while admiring the creation that God has given us, or we can stand up walk over to the water fountain and wait for her to complete her workout. This is a choice whether to sin or not to sin. I personally would be weak and sit there and admire God’s creation. I have chosen to sin. Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Did Adam cause me to sin, or did I chose to sin?
[/quote]
Yep, that is why I asked the clarifying question. I was thinking that was the type of sin being talked about. I am refering to the inherited sin. The sin that causes us to get old, to get sick and to die. If you are refering to the other sin, then yes we have a choice at those moments what we will choose to do.[/quote]
To me we are born sinful, or the propensity to sin, but it is our choice to sin that condemns our souls. I know you do not believe in being eternally damned.
On another note, not being Catholic I really struggle with Original Sin, so I guess I need to do some more research on this subject. I will take guidance only from my Christian Brothers and Sisters if there are any of them on here.[/quote]
D, I was thinking about what you said about how you don’t feel we need to do works to gain our reward. You shared scriptures that show that our only salvation is from Christ, which I agree with. However, then we have scriptures like “faith without works is dead” and then we have this scripture:
James 2:14-25 NIV
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatâ??and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
When I see scriptures like those, I can’t just ignore them. I thought of a way to try and explain to you how works fall into play in salvation, because the Bible clearly is showing some our necessary. We just have to reconcile it with the other scriptures that show that we cannot reach salvation of our own accord.
This is from a personal experience:
My friend had some tumors that were growing along her spine. They were extremely painful and caused her much distress and discomfort. She went to the doctor, and the doctor said that he could remove them. However, because she is a diabetic, before they could do the surgery, she needed to get her blood sugar down. They gave her two months and then she had another check up. She tried eating healthy, and taking care of herself to bring it down, but when she went back, the doctor told her that she hadn’t done enough because her blood sugar was too high still and so she couldn’t have the surgery. He make an appointment two months later for another check up. This time, she asked me if I could help her with her diet. Of course I a agreed and with her hard work and my direction, she got her blood sugar down in the allotted time, and she was cleared to have the surgery (which she had and everything went great).
My point in that story is this: The doctor said that for her to have the surgery, she needed to do something. She needed to bring her blood sugar down. Now, was reducing the blood sugar alone going to get rid of the tumors? Absolutely not! However, that doesn’t mean they were not essential to getting her “reward”, in this case her tumors removed.
The same thing with us. Obviously, nothing we can do can get rid of sin that we inherited in our body. No amount of works will do anything. However, that isn’t to say that we weren’t required to do any works. The scriptures above show the importance of works. The works are equivalent to us bringing down our blood sugar. It is still essential.[/quote]
I can see why you think the way you do. I really can and I have struggled with this. I do good works not because I am required, but because I want to please my Father in Heaven. He gave me a free gift of salvation.
Here is a story of mine, but mine is just hypothetical and not real. A person shows up at your house with a brand new 2010 Ferrari, or any car you can imagine, and they say here are the keys and it is my free gift to you. You then say thank you so much but here is a quarter as a token of my gratitude. This is the same thing that my works are to the gift that God gave me. The gift he has given me is more valuable than anything you can imagine, and my works are nothing compared to that gift. I am not going to say my works are equal to the gift ever. You can either accept this gift freely or you dont. That is your choice.
Yet while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
mse2us - please don’t take this the wrong way. The point of exploring/explaining the history of the JW’s is to highlight several important facts - The JW’s started as an system of beliefs opposed to historical Christian teaching as demonstrated by the opposition to the Deity of Christ which causes the opposition to the trinity, to salvation by grace, and and host of other doctrines. This divorce from plain, historical Christian doctrine resulted in the “trail of errors” of the JW church.
This trail of errors has been repeatedly corrected and updated over the last 100 years, but it is precisely this constant calibration of beliefs that highlights for those of us on the outside just how twisted the belief structure of the JW has been and continues to be.
please understand, none of us doubt the sincerity and honesty of the average JW. I admire the intensity and study you have obviously put into understanding your faith. We are merely outside observers looking in at your experience and making observations.
But you also have to understand that we see JW as a corruption of the Christian faith, not a correction or improvement. The lineage of Doctrine we hold in our Christian faith goes back to Christ himself. We take the revealed truth literally and do not rely on a “updated” translation, but on the actual primary historical documents themselves - the plain teaching that we can discover for ourselves, not the “calibrated” teachings of men.
I hope that this does not sound harsh or judgemental - if so, I humbly apologize - I merely mean to express my thoughts in kindness. [/quote]
I appreciate your opinion Irish. Your are right our beliefs are different than mainstream Christianity and no we don’t deny the deity of Jesus because Jesus is a mighty god but the Bible shows that he is not God Almighty. Both you and Dmaddox say that the most popular teachings of Christianity have been around for centuries and because of that this makes them true. Unfortunately Irish that is the exact opposite of what the Bible says.
I gave the example of the wheat and the weeds illustration a couple of post ago. This illustration applies to the dominant Christian teachings that have been around for centuries.
Jesus said he would let the wheat grow with the weed until the conclusion of the system of things. Weeds alway overtake what every it grows with and dominants the other crop.
After the apostles died false teaching started to infiltrate Christian teachings and as I mentioned in one post Justin Marty as well as Origen Adamantius (185Ã?¢??254) were two Christians who were Greek philosophers in the second century A.D. and thought that Christianity would be more appealing if it was blended with Greek philosophy and mythology into. For example, the immortality of the soul is one such teaching. Plato (428-348 B.C.), the Greek philosopher and student of Socrates, taught that the body and the “immortal soul” separate at death. The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes that Origen, an early and influential Catholic theologian, was influenced by Greek thinkers: “Speculation about the soul in the subapostolic church was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. This is seen in Origen’s acceptance of Plato’s doctrine of the preexistence of the soul as pure mind (nous) originally, which, by reason of its fall from God, cooled down to soul (psyche) when it lost its participation in the divine fire by looking earthward” (1992, “Soul,” p. 1037).
Truly a weed like teaching that began in the second century A.D. and is the dominant belief of Christians.
God’s being worshiped in three or triads of god’s as I’m sure you know, began centures before the trinity teaching became official doctrine of the catholic church. It’s a historical fact that both Babylon and Egypt worshipped triad of god’s. Such as Osiris, Isis, and Horus for the Egyptians and of Sin, Shamash, and Ishtar for the Babylonians.
Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that that trinity teaching did not develop until the fourth century.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967 edition, Vol. XIV, pp. 306, 304)states:
It is not, as already seen, directly and immediately the word of God." It also admits (on page 299): “The formulation ‘one God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”
“In Scripture there is yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word ‘Trias’ (of which the Latin ‘Trinitas’ is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about 180 AD… Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of ‘Trinitas’ in Tertullian” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p. 47).
Another weed like teaching that began in ancient Babylon and Egypt, was not part of the christian congregation during the time of the apostles and infiltrated the Christian congregation after the death of the apostes and is now the dominant belief among Christians.
Irish, these are just some of the weeds that were planted and grew for centuries and eventually overtook the wheat and became the teachings that most of Christianity now believe.
The illustration at Matthew states that at the conclusion of the system of things the weeds will be separated from the wheat. Once they are separated they would be distinguishable by their teachings.
Irish notice what the book of Daniel states about knowledge and the time of the end.
Daniel 8:17(NIV):
"17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”
Daniel 12:4(NIV):
“4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
Daniel 12:9:
"9 And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.”
Can you see what the above passages and the wheat and the weeds illustration have in common? Both talk about the time of the end. The wheat and the weeds won’t become distinguishable until the time of the end and the understanding of the book of Daniel which is key to understanding that Jesus was made king in heaven in 1914 will be kept secret until the time of the end.
My point is don’t be so sure based on the fact that this form of Christianity has been around for centuries and is the most popular form of Christianity. You really need to open your heart and mind to see that the main and most popular christian doctrines like the two I mentioned above were not taught in the original christian congregation when the apostles were alive and were planted as weeds once the apostles fell asleep in death.
[/quote]
And here’s what the Catholic Encyclopedia actually says about the Trinity and it’s proofs in and out of scripture.
Now I think it suffices to say for every extrapolated passage you provide, I can provide another that supports Father, Son and Holy Spirit manifestations of God.
Point is we can toss scripture back and forth all day long and never make head way.
Now, what I see is a bit of revisionist history. The Counsel of Nicaea in 325 AD was not as a result of perversion of doctrine but was designed to combat it. It was one of many such counsels as an early church struggles to get it’s legs under itself. Churches, often off the beaten path would often come up with there own theologies and scriptures. These counsel gathered to combat heresy.
Now history also states that the official doctrine of the Trinity existed before the canon of the Bible was established in the Synod of Carthage in 397 AD. Further, the New Covenant scriptures were written in conjunction with the growth of the early church.
The official Protestant versions of the Bible were not firmly established until 1820, when, sadly, the Apocrypha was removed.
The NWT translation appeared in 1961.
Historical Fact: the Holy Trinity was officially recognized before the two cannons of what makes up the modern Catholic Bible were assembled. The Protestant interpretations started with Martin Luther and officially excluded the Apocrypha in 1820. 1870 would be the birth of the JW interpretation of the Bible, which, the NWT I would argue takes great liberty with scripture, Jn 1:1 being a stark example.
[/quote]
Know that the Protestant and Catholic Bibles are the same except for the Apocraphy. 6 books in the Old Testament. The New Testaments of both groups are exactly the same. The Apocrapha really does not change the meaning/interpretation of the Bible, but it adds more history to the Bible. The NWT on the other hand changes the interpretation and meaning of the Bible.
mse2us - I’m going to break my responses up into chunks, becuase the wall of text’s would be too huge:
As for your claim that the concept of One God-Three Personifications comes from Egyptian and Babylonian beliefs, let’s get rid of that right here:
First of all the interpretation of a trinity is based on the works of 19th and 20th century revisionists, not on the actual inscriptions and beliefs of the Babylonians - have you actually studied the Gods Of bBabylon?
Anu - son of the God Anshar and the Goddess Kishar - he ruled the earth along with Ea and Enlil. He was considered the God of the Sky and was married to the Goddess Nintu - he had two sons, oddly enough, who were Ea and Enlil
Ea - son of Anu and Nintu, married to the Goddess Damkina
Enlil - another son of Anu and Nintu
Anshar (Anu’s father and Ea and enlil’s grandfather) was the son of the Goddess Tiamut and the God Apsu - he ruled the sea and the underworld.
Apsu was the Ruler of the Gods and Goddesses, gave birth to Lahmu, Lahamu, Anshar and Kishar - so Anshar married his sister . . . oh and Ea killed his grandfather . . .
Anyway - that’s just the start, there’s lots more gods and goddesses to go, but I’ll stop with those - where anyone finds the concept of the biblical God in all of that mess is beyond me - there is no comparison between the polytheism of the Babylonians and the monotheism of Christianity.
On to the Egyptians . . .let’s just start with the main ones:
Amun, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bastet, Bes, Geb, Hapy, Hathor, Horus, Isis, Khepri, Khnum, Ma’at, Nephthys, Nun, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra, Ra-Horakhty, Sekhmet, Seshat, Seth, Shu, Sobek, Tawaret, Tefnut and Thoth - there’s just no way I can fit it the run down on these, and on top of that - there were literally dozens of additional gods and goddess - again, no possible comparison between Polytheism and Monotheism.
The revisionists who created the “link” had to purposefully cut out huge swaths of known beliefs and repackage what remained to even provide the most logically tortuous connection between Egyptian and Babylonian beliefs to Judaism and Christianity.
If you take the known facts of both culture’s religions and the actual descriptions and beliefs about their gods and goddesses - you’d never arrive at that conclusion . . .
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]
x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.
Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]
Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
mse2us - I’m going to break my responses up into chunks, becuase the wall of text’s would be too huge:
As for your claim that the concept of One God-Three Personifications comes from Egyptian and Babylonian beliefs, let’s get rid of that right here:
First of all the interpretation of a trinity is based on the works of 19th and 20th century revisionists, not on the actual inscriptions and beliefs of the Babylonians - have you actually studied the Gods Of bBabylon?
Anu - son of the God Anshar and the Goddess Kishar - he ruled the earth along with Ea and Enlil. He was considered the God of the Sky and was married to the Goddess Nintu - he had two sons, oddly enough, who were Ea and Enlil
Ea - son of Anu and Nintu, married to the Goddess Damkina
Enlil - another son of Anu and Nintu
Anshar (Anu’s father and Ea and enlil’s grandfather) was the son of the Goddess Tiamut and the God Apsu - he ruled the sea and the underworld.
Apsu was the Ruler of the Gods and Goddesses, gave birth to Lahmu, Lahamu, Anshar and Kishar - so Anshar married his sister . . . oh and Ea killed his grandfather . . .
Anyway - that’s just the start, there’s lots more gods and goddesses to go, but I’ll stop with those - where anyone finds the concept of the biblical God in all of that mess is beyond me - there is no comparison between the polytheism of the Babylonians and the monotheism of Christianity.
On to the Egyptians . . .let’s just start with the main ones:
Amun, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bastet, Bes, Geb, Hapy, Hathor, Horus, Isis, Khepri, Khnum, Ma’at, Nephthys, Nun, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra, Ra-Horakhty, Sekhmet, Seshat, Seth, Shu, Sobek, Tawaret, Tefnut and Thoth - there’s just no way I can fit it the run down on these, and on top of that - there were literally dozens of additional gods and goddess - again, no possible comparison between Polytheism and Monotheism.
The revisionists who created the “link” had to purposefully cut out huge swaths of known beliefs and repackage what remained to even provide the most logically tortuous connection between Egyptian and Babylonian beliefs to Judaism and Christianity.
If you take the known facts of both culture’s religions and the actual descriptions and beliefs about their gods and goddesses - you’d never arrive at that conclusion . . .[/quote]
mse2us probably got this beleif out of the WatchTower, and we have seen from Tribs recording where that will get you.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]
x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.
Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]
Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]
D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]
x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.
Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]
Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]
D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.[/quote]
My only interaction with JWs are you and mse2us, so the only place I got these thoughts are from you two. You have told me countless times that the 144k will rule with Jesus in heaven over the rest of the faithful on earth. The only thing that makes the 144k more special than the faithful are their works. Am I wrong? So your works are what allows you to get into heaven. It is not the grace you beleive in but your own works.
OK mse2us - your response to the first point was “The Israelites were expecting the Messiah but they never thought he was God.” and cited proof of this because “the Jews thought he was claiming to be God at John 10:33 and of course this offended them” - sorry, but that is not proof that the Jews did not consider the Messiah to be God.
You quoting of Peter clearly indicates that Peter Considered Him the Messiah (Christ) - this does not prove that the Messiah was not Divine.
As for your explanations on the passages - all you’re doing is stating your talking points without giving any proof for them again. If I understand your point of view - the passages I quoted do prove that Jesus is indeed God, but that Jesus is merely A god, but not The One True God - you are now in line with Babylonian and Egyptian Polytheism - you have multiple Gods.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]
x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.
Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]
Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]
D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.[/quote]
My only interaction with JWs are you and mse2us, so the only place I got these thoughts are from you two. You have told me countless times that the 144k will rule with Jesus in heaven over the rest of the faithful on earth. The only thing that makes the 144k more special than the faithful are their works. Am I wrong? So your works are what allows you to get into heaven. It is not the grace you beleive in but your own works.[/quote]
You are wrong. Reread the posts we made. Especially the one I just made about works. But to be sure, you are wrong.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]
x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.
Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]
Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]
D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.[/quote]
My only interaction with JWs are you and mse2us, so the only place I got these thoughts are from you two. You have told me countless times that the 144k will rule with Jesus in heaven over the rest of the faithful on earth. The only thing that makes the 144k more special than the faithful are their works. Am I wrong? So your works are what allows you to get into heaven. It is not the grace you beleive in but your own works.[/quote]
You are wrong. Reread the posts we made. Especially the one I just made about works. But to be sure, you are wrong.[/quote]
So all you can come back with is, “D you are wrong?” Good come back. So if I am wrong as you suggest what makes the 144k different from the rest?
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]
x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.
Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]
Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]
D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.[/quote]
My only interaction with JWs are you and mse2us, so the only place I got these thoughts are from you two. You have told me countless times that the 144k will rule with Jesus in heaven over the rest of the faithful on earth. The only thing that makes the 144k more special than the faithful are their works. Am I wrong? So your works are what allows you to get into heaven. It is not the grace you beleive in but your own works.[/quote]
You are wrong. Reread the posts we made. Especially the one I just made about works. But to be sure, you are wrong.[/quote]
So all you can come back with is, “D you are wrong?” Good come back. So if I am wrong as you suggest what makes the 144k different from the rest?[/quote]
I am not trying to give a comeback. I am asking you to reread what we wrote. I am saying you read it wrong. We can get into what makes the 144000 different, but lets take this one point at a time.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]
x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.
Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]
Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]
D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.[/quote]
My only interaction with JWs are you and mse2us, so the only place I got these thoughts are from you two. You have told me countless times that the 144k will rule with Jesus in heaven over the rest of the faithful on earth. The only thing that makes the 144k more special than the faithful are their works. Am I wrong? So your works are what allows you to get into heaven. It is not the grace you beleive in but your own works.[/quote]
You are wrong. Reread the posts we made. Especially the one I just made about works. But to be sure, you are wrong.[/quote]
So all you can come back with is, “D you are wrong?” Good come back. So if I am wrong as you suggest what makes the 144k different from the rest?[/quote]
I am not trying to give a comeback. I am asking you to reread what we wrote. I am saying you read it wrong. We can get into what makes the 144000 different, but lets take this one point at a time. [/quote]
First, I need you to answer my question because it deals with context of your question?
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Ugh my post didn’t show up, oh well.
Now I don’t understand everything there is to this subject but from what I understand is that when Adam and Eve sinned caused spiritual death. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which is the reason we all experience the effects of sin and die and although not guilty of Adam and Eves sin, which is why we need to be born of Spirit. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Even though we are not guilty of Adam and Eve’s sin we are predispose to sin due to the sin nature we inherited where we all sin at some point of our own accord and are guilty for it.[/quote]
In short, I agree.[/quote]
x2[/quote]
I say in short, that is, for our purposes here. The bottom line is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and Jesus Christ is the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. A Jesus who is not God is no savior. There is nothing, NOTHING, that can be shown to a veteran JW for which they are lacking a long standing canned answer that is entirely satisfactory to themselves.
Only the loving subduing power of the convicting Holy Spirit, bought by the Son and sent by the Father can defeat the death grip on these peoples minds at the hands of the WB&TS.[/quote]
Amen. I am learning that. Very slowly because I am stubborn. I want everyone to be saved even the JWs. If they could only see how BIG God is then they would be able to see the truth. The more I learn about the JWs the more I see that they want to control him, and not submit to him. They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth. My works flow from my faith in God. My works are a fruit of the spirit. Fruit grows from out of the plant of faith. The fruit is a by product of my faith. Works are not a necessity to be saved.[/quote]
D, Please read what we are saying! You said in this paragraph “They have this thought that they have the ability to do enough good works so that they can rule over all of the Earth.” Read the post i made that you already responded to about works again. You have been doing this all along, and I am sure others are seeing it as well. You are labeling us with beliefs that are not true and that go against what we already said. It shows a huge lack of respect for others, or at the very least shows that you are not internalizing what we are saying. You need to pay attention to what others say. And that includes JW’s.[/quote]
My only interaction with JWs are you and mse2us, so the only place I got these thoughts are from you two. You have told me countless times that the 144k will rule with Jesus in heaven over the rest of the faithful on earth. The only thing that makes the 144k more special than the faithful are their works. Am I wrong? So your works are what allows you to get into heaven. It is not the grace you beleive in but your own works.[/quote]
You are wrong. Reread the posts we made. Especially the one I just made about works. But to be sure, you are wrong.[/quote]
So all you can come back with is, “D you are wrong?” Good come back. So if I am wrong as you suggest what makes the 144k different from the rest?[/quote]
I am not trying to give a comeback. I am asking you to reread what we wrote. I am saying you read it wrong. We can get into what makes the 144000 different, but lets take this one point at a time. [/quote]
First, I need you to answer my question because it deals with context of your question? [/quote]
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
<<< you have multiple Gods. >>>[/quote]
Ohhhhhh no they don’t. They have one God and one god. The first and greatest creation of Jehovah, preeminent above all else, exalted and firstborn. worthy of praise adoration from both men and angels, but created nonetheless.