Trigger Warnings

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

So–judging by this empty response, which is generally unlike you–you retract all of the bullshit about “third graders” and “200 kids,” which you got wrong about your own favorite piece of evidence? You admit that this incident, which you’ve continuously exaggerated, twisted, overblown, and embellished, is not remotely important enough to merit your abiding attention, being as it is an anecdote about a few dozen kids* who attended a workshop and heard some inappropriate things a decade and a half ago?

[/quote]

Yes I must admit I got some of the details wrong. However the group that was involved(GLSEN) has been involved in numerous scandals since then. They have I infiltrated - yes infiltrated - thousands of schools and are brainwashing - yes brainwashing - children.[/quote]

I am as against the actual brainwashing of kids as you are. But isn’t GLSEN pretty much all about getting kids to stop calling each other “faggot” in school? What is the “brainwashing”–what does it entail?

Either way, say you’re right. Say this group is doing some things it shouldn’t be doing. If there’s proof, I’ll gladly join you in condemning this group for the specific inappropriate things it does. But this will not have any effect on my opinion of a a colossally larger set of millions of gay Americans, almost every single one of whom does not direct or work for GLSEN.[/quote]

I’ve been through a lot of it before and you just don’t seem to see it the way I do. Telling young kids that they might be gay, that being gay is good/perfectly acceptable, that they might be a girl trapped in a boy’s body, that cross dressing is normal/acceptable, that it’s normal/acceptable to have a sex change, that having sex with other children is normal/acceptable and that anyone who disagrees is a bigot is profoundly disturbing to me. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg I’m afraid.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Instead of telling her what to do he gives her choices anytime she throws a fit. If she doesn’t want to go to bed he will say “Do you want to go to bed now or in 10 minutes?” He wonders why she never listens to him when he tells her what to do.[/quote]

While it will vary from kid to kid (certain kids will actually have life stress from too many choices at certain ages, and need to be limited in choice until that part of them develops) you HAVE to allow and even force at times, your kids to choose things. They don’t learn how to make decisions by never making them.

That being said I’m talking about:

“Darling, what do you want to drink? Milk or water?”
“Juice Daddy.”
“No Dear, Milk or water”

When your kid is throwing a fit, you don’t negotiate, lmao.

Daughters have this ability. It’s hard for me to judge a father of a daughter because it is a different ballgame than father of a son.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Just like in business/sports recently.

[/quote]

I think there is an obvious difference between an employer punishing an employee for tweeting about a coworker’s “horrible” kiss with his boyfriend–i.e., talking shit about a coworker’s relationship by way of a visible and openly accessible online publication–and a kid demanding to be warned about antisemitic triggers in The Merchant of Venice.

I don’t understand why people continue to act like the Dolphins/Jones thing is something that it absolutely is not.[/quote]

Sorry, SMH, this sounds too much like “…but not in my realm of interest! Academia, literary works, etc., should get a pass!” Oh, they should?

It is an inevitable result of tolerating it in other realms. It is a wholly predictable product of the culture now at large. Where we police ourselves for anything sounding remotely sexist, ‘hetero-normative,’ racist, or cissexist (new one for me). Not shocking. Not surprising. Only the tip of the iceberg.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Just like in business/sports recently.

[/quote]

I think there is an obvious difference between an employer punishing an employee for tweeting about a coworker’s “horrible” kiss with his boyfriend–i.e., talking shit about a coworker’s relationship by way of a visible and openly accessible online publication–and a kid demanding to be warned about antisemitic triggers in The Merchant of Venice.

I don’t understand why people continue to act like the Dolphins/Jones thing is something that it absolutely is not.[/quote]

Sorry, SMH, this sounds too much like “…but not in my realm of interest! Academia, literary works, etc., should get a pass!” Oh, they should?

It is an inevitable result of tolerating it in other realms. It is a wholly predictable product of the culture now at large. Where we police for anything sounding remotely sexist, hetero normative, racist, or cissexist (new one for me). Not shocking. Not surprising. Only the tip of the iceberg.
[/quote]

There are two threads to your responses to me, one with which I agree, and another with which I don’t. The former is that “we police for anything sounding remotely sexist, hetero normative, racist, or cissexist (new one for me).” This is true, and an enormous problem–hence my starting this thread and bemoaning the PC pussydom of the Left Wing.

The other thread–the one I’m taking issue with–involves a specific parallel between Jones’ punishment by the NFL and “trigger warnings.” This thread carries the implication that I am hypocritical for defending Jones’ punishment while expressing disgust with the notion of a “trigger warning.” My response is that this is really apples to oranges to bananas to grapefruits. That is, you are building parallels between the nonparallel. I will look at the specifics of the Jones case and build a legitimate parallel:

[Note: I am ignoring Eich because I think he should have kept his job, and I am not in the business of defending positions I despise. {Though, I’m not going so far as to offer the popular delusion that his losing his job has anything to do with the First Amendment, which it doesn’t–just as “trigger warnings” don’t have anything to do with the First, their stupidity notwithstanding.}]

Jones’ case: Highly visible employee of a highly visible organization for which good PR is paramount publishes an insult (if I called the image of you kissing your wife “horrible,” you’d take it as an insult) of a specific, named coworker on social media. Employee is rightly disciplined by employer, as I would be and as just about any of us would be.

Legitimate university-context analogue of Jones’ case: A professor publishes (or tweets or distributes in class/on campus) criticism of the personal life of an employee or student, calling that employee or student’s kiss with his/her boy/girlfriend “horrible.” This would and should be punished by the university or college–every single time, without exception.

I am not a hypocrite because I have a set of relevant principles (videlicet, “employers should punish employees who publicly insult a coworker vis-a-vis that coworker’s kissing his/her partner” and “the intellect cannot, in the pursuit of philosophy, shy away from the uncomfortable positions of its forebears”) which compel me, without contradiction, to applaud Jones’ punishment while also deriding the concept of “trigger warnings.”

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Jones’ case: Highly visible employee of a highly visible organization for which good PR is paramount publishes an insult (if I called the image of you kissing your wife “horrible,” you’d take it as an insult) of a specific, named coworker on social media. Employee is rightly disciplined by employer, as I would be and as just about any of us would be.
[/quote]

Question - If the players are indeed employees of the team that they play for, and not of the league itself (I don’t know the answer to how this works), does that change the dynamic of your opinion given that a) they are not technically co-workers in the strictest sense and b) both are highly visible public figures anyhow - good PR reasons notwithstanding?

[quote]JR249 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Jones’ case: Highly visible employee of a highly visible organization for which good PR is paramount publishes an insult (if I called the image of you kissing your wife “horrible,” you’d take it as an insult) of a specific, named coworker on social media. Employee is rightly disciplined by employer, as I would be and as just about any of us would be.
[/quote]

Question - If the players are indeed employees of the team that they play for, and not of the league itself (I don’t know the answer to how this works), does that change the dynamic of your opinion given that a) they are not technically co-workers in the strictest sense and b) both are highly visible public figures anyhow - good PR reasons notwithstanding?
[/quote]

I’ll just be frank: No, not at all.

Edit: It changes the phrasing of my opinion slightly, but it leaves the opinion itself exactly unchanged. Also, see the post just after this one.

Double Edit: Co-workers work together; they don’t necessarily need to be paid by the same organization. My GF’s father works, day to day, on large-scale industrial projects which are contracted out to various private companies. He works alongside guys who are not employed by the same contractor as he, but who are nevertheless his “coworkers,” and if he were to begin publishing insults about their “horrible” kisses with their wives and husbands and girlfriends and boyfriends, he would be rightly punished. If you were his boss, and chose not to take action in such a circumstance, I think you’d be a pretty terrible boss.

By the way, PR, we all know, was the reason behind the fine, so it cannot really “notwithstand.”

From Salon.com

Every semester on the first day of my classes, I explain to students that at some point during the semester, the material that we cover will fundamentally challenge their thinking in some area that they hold dear, particularly their beliefs about race, gender and sexuality. I also explain to them that these challenges are less about making them change their minds, although I do hope that they will discard some particularly retrograde and unhelpful beliefs, and more about making them refine their opinions, while becoming clear and informed about what they think. If a student has not been challenged to fundamentally rethink the beliefs they hold dear, they have not been to college.

Therefore the growing national conversation, buttressed by demands from students, that college professors place trigger warnings on their syllabi to alert students to uncomfortable and traumatic material gives me great concern. While I care about my own academic freedom and the ways that trigger warnings impede my ability to teach course materials in the ways I deem most appropriate, I care far more about educating students who can entertain a range of competing views, wade through those beliefs, and come out on the other side with clarity and the capacity to articulate their position.

Yet, those of us in the academy are now encountering the generation of students educated under the high-stakes testing model of both No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top. They are a generation of students who are uncomfortable with being made uncomfortable. They are a generation of students who want the right answers, and the assured A, rather than the challenge of thinking and writing their way through material that is more complex than the multiple choice answer requires. To me, such an orientation to the world ? the desire for endless comfort ? is an untenable educational proposition. Encountering material that you have never encountered before, being challenged and learning strategies for both understanding and engaging the material is what it means to get an education.

But in this era of the corporate university, the belief in educating students to be something other than laborers in the capitalist machine is increasingly obsolete. In many respects I understand this position: In a time when good public education is increasingly difficult to access at reasonable prices, creating strategies for making university education economically feasible guides policymaking at many universities. The reality is that parents want their children to be able to get out of school and get jobs that will offer them an economic livelihood. In that kind of environment it becomes harder to justify a robust humanities education focused on thinking about questions of power, the nature of human relationships, literature, history and politics.
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In this broader context, some students find it reasonable to request that they not have to encounter material about gay, lesbian, queer or trans identity. At the University of South Carolina Upstate, the Center for Women?s and Gender Studies was recently stripped of funding after a statewide uproar over the teaching of texts with gay and lesbian characters and other programming dealing with gay themes. I have had colleagues at institutions from around the country discuss the uproar they get from students of certain religious backgrounds when they are asked to engage with sexually explicit material in the classroom. By sexually explicit, I mean something as basic as talking about sex and sexuality or reading about characters who have sex. In graduate school one of my professors told us a story about students who started bringing the Bible to her women?s and gender studies class whenever the class talked about homosexuality. As a person of deep faith, I remind my students that religious belief and critical thinking are not incompatible.

Helping students to think differently about these kinds of questions is among one of the important tasks that university professors do. Yet this call from students to censor their own education before they even receive it is designed to keep them from being challenged. And it should matter to us because it means that we are creating a generation of students who don?t know what it means to be challenged, and are therefore ill-equipped to confront the challenging times in which we are living and prevail.

As a person trained in feminist pedagogy, I?m clear that good teachers spend a lot of time thinking about power dynamics in the class, ways to ensure effective and productive responses to challenging material, and ways to make classrooms the safest spaces they can possibly be. Those of us who teach about traumatic material ? say, war, or the history of lynching, or rape and sexual assault, or domestic violence ? usually alert students if they are going to encounter violent material. But all of these materials are not the same. Showing a rape scene, particularly in gender studies courses that are often appealing to students who are trying to make sense of some personal experience of sexual violence, does require sensitivity and a willingness to provide alternative assignments.

But all trigger warnings are not equal. Showing lynching photographs or the movie ?Fruitvale Station,? a film about 22-year-old unarmed Oakland resident Oscar Grant who was gunned down by a BART police officer in 2008, might ?trigger? my African-American students who have relatives who were lynched or who have experienced violent encounters with the police. But having the space to encounter those images in a class with a professor trained to deal with such material sensitively and rigorously also helps black people who often feel invisible in course curricula. The same is true when encountering LGBTQ topics in the classroom: Having the discussion may be difficult for students but it creates a context for inclusion that is absolutely necessary, especially in a nation so deeply invested in understanding itself as democratic.

And part of what we as educators, parents and students have to recognize is that classroom spaces in which difficult topics like trauma, rape, war, race and sexuality are discussed are already unsafe. When students of color who have endured racism have to hear racially insensitive comments from other students who are in the process of learning, the classroom is unsafe. The classroom is unsafe for trans students who are often referred to by the wrong gender pronoun by both students and teachers. The classroom is unsafe for rape survivors who encounter students in the process of learning why getting drunk at a party does not mean a woman deserves to be raped.

But learning about these topics are all necessary forms of education. And trigger warnings won?t solve or ameliorate the problems that open, frank, guided discussion by well-trained, competent instructors can. Every semester, I gird up my loins to address the range of defensive and uncomfortable reactions that students have to material they have been taught never to discuss in polite company.

Their responses range from nervous fidgeting, laughter and downcast eyes to vocal anger and confrontation. It?s uncomfortable. But I stand my ground and teach the material, because that is what I am there to do. And then I create the context for students to work through it. Overwhelmingly students let me know at the end of each semester that though the discussions were hard, they are glad we had them. Trigger warnings might have scared these students away from participating in discussions that they were absolutely capable of having. And in that regard they do more harm than good. So for the sake of my students, you won?t find them on my syllabi.
Brittney Cooper

Brittney Cooper is a contributing writer at Salon, and teaches Women’s and Gender Studies and Africana Studies at Rutgers. Follow her on Twitter at @professorcrunk.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
…I have to yank his cell phone for a week and set some boundaries because he becomes “infected” with these liberal ideas of what he “should” be able to do. He’s a good negotiator too and every so often I actually have to fall back to the old, “because I’m your FATHER and I SAID SO”. But he always respects that, cuz he knows I can whip his ass (and will if I have to).[/quote]

Blame the Founding Fathers for this with their “We don’t have to listen to the king!” crap =)

I’m being totally serious here btw.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Just like in business/sports recently.

[/quote]

I think there is an obvious difference between an employer punishing an employee for tweeting about a coworker’s “horrible” kiss with his boyfriend–i.e., talking shit about a coworker’s relationship by way of a visible and openly accessible online publication–and a kid demanding to be warned about antisemitic triggers in The Merchant of Venice.

I don’t understand why people continue to act like the Dolphins/Jones thing is something that it absolutely is not.[/quote]

Sorry, SMH, this sounds too much like “…but not in my realm of interest! Academia, literary works, etc., should get a pass!” Oh, they should?

It is an inevitable result of tolerating it in other realms. It is a wholly predictable product of the culture now at large. Where we police for anything sounding remotely sexist, hetero normative, racist, or cissexist (new one for me). Not shocking. Not surprising. Only the tip of the iceberg.
[/quote]

There are two threads to your responses to me, one with which I agree, and another with which I don’t. The former is that “we police for anything sounding remotely sexist, hetero normative, racist, or cissexist (new one for me).” This is true, and an enormous problem–hence my starting this thread and bemoaning the PC pussydom of the Left Wing.

The other thread–the one I’m taking issue with–involves a specific parallel between Jones’ punishment by the NFL and “trigger warnings.” This thread carries the implication that I am hypocritical for defending Jones’ punishment while expressing disgust with the notion of a “trigger warning.” My response is that this is really apples to oranges to bananas to grapefruits. That is, you are building parallels between the nonparallel. I will look at the specifics of the Jones case and build a legitimate parallel:

[Note: I am ignoring Eich because I think he should have kept his job, and I am not in the business of defending positions I despise. {Though, I’m not going so far as to offer the popular delusion that his losing his job has anything to do with the First Amendment, which it doesn’t–just as “trigger warnings” don’t have anything to do with the First, their stupidity notwithstanding.}]

Jones’ case: Highly visible employee of a highly visible organization for which good PR is paramount publishes an insult (if I called the image of you kissing your wife “horrible,” you’d take it as an insult) of a specific, named coworker on social media. Employee is rightly disciplined by employer, as I would be and as just about any of us would be.

Legitimate university-context analogue of Jones’ case: A professor publishes (or tweets or distributes in class/on campus) criticism of the personal life of an employee or student, calling that employee or student’s kiss with his/her boy/girlfriend “horrible.” This would and should be punished by the university or college–every single time, without exception.

I am not a hypocrite because I have a set of relevant principles (videlicet, “employers should punish employees who publicly insult a coworker vis-a-vis that coworker’s kissing his/her partner” and “the intellect cannot, in the pursuit of philosophy, shy away from the uncomfortable positions of its forebears”) which compel me, without contradiction, to applaud Jones’ punishment while also deriding the concept of “trigger warnings.”[/quote]

And the students (paying customers, often with public money), and perhaps even some co-workers, are offended by the choice of sexist, heteronormativist, cissexist, and a host of other “-ists” literature/materials. Time to update your reading assignments. This hasn’t happened in a vacuum, it has been cultivated by culture. A culture heavily shaped by the same halls of learning.

Oh, how my speech course pushed the "he is a she, she is a he–and make use of their preferred pronoun (btw, doesn’t Google offer like 50 gender choices now) malarkey. Now they’re living with the first rumbling of an inevitable result. I say they should live with their monster. I cracked a great big smile at this story. Made my day. If a pro-trigger warning petition pops up at my Uni (I wouldn’t be freaking surprised), I’m signing that sucker.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
From Salon.com

Every semester on the first day of my classes, I explain to students that at some point during the semester, the material that we cover will fundamentally challenge their thinking in some area that they hold dear, particularly their beliefs about race, gender and sexuality. I also explain to them that these challenges are less about making them change their minds, although I do hope that they will discard some particularly retrograde and unhelpful beliefs, and more about making them refine their opinions, while becoming clear and informed about what they think. If a student has not been challenged to fundamentally rethink the beliefs they hold dear, they have not been to college.[/quote]

Good find! More eloquently discussed what I was trying to say.

And there is nothing “pussified” about them. They actually fought the culture war. And won. They pushed and fought for their vision. And continue to push and fight to fully realize it.

And I have to wonder how many of these alarmed educators wouldn’t go running to the office with tales of how their conservative co-worker is stirring up debate about their progressive assumptions. “He is calling into question the notion that “he” and “she” are mere personal options that must be honored by another!” Heteronormative-cissexism-whatever-the-heckism head-explosion. No sympathy here. None.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Instead of telling her what to do he gives her choices anytime she throws a fit. If she doesn’t want to go to bed he will say “Do you want to go to bed now or in 10 minutes?” He wonders why she never listens to him when he tells her what to do.[/quote]

While it will vary from kid to kid (certain kids will actually have life stress from too many choices at certain ages, and need to be limited in choice until that part of them develops) you HAVE to allow and even force at times, your kids to choose things. They don’t learn how to make decisions by never making them.

That being said I’m talking about:

“Darling, what do you want to drink? Milk or water?”
“Juice Daddy.”
“No Dear, Milk or water”

When your kid is throwing a fit, you don’t negotiate, lmao.

Daughters have this ability. It’s hard for me to judge a father of a daughter because it is a different ballgame than father of a son.
[/quote]

The wife and I don’t have kids so I try not to tell parents how to raise them (despite having had to deal with the consequences of shitty parents during former employment) but he literally negotiates everything he knows will cause her to have a fit such as eating, going places, bedtime, and a host of others. I told her I would spank her if she did anything I told her not to do, such as walking on the dog, so she listened to me.

I think what CB is pointing out is that offering choices is good (do you want to brush your teeth first or put on your pajamas first?). The negotiations that cwill alludes to comes from a misunderstanding of the roll choices can play in child-raising.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Instead of telling her what to do he gives her choices anytime she throws a fit. If she doesn’t want to go to bed he will say “Do you want to go to bed now or in 10 minutes?” He wonders why she never listens to him when he tells her what to do.[/quote]

While it will vary from kid to kid (certain kids will actually have life stress from too many choices at certain ages, and need to be limited in choice until that part of them develops) you HAVE to allow and even force at times, your kids to choose things. They don’t learn how to make decisions by never making them.

That being said I’m talking about:

“Darling, what do you want to drink? Milk or water?”
“Juice Daddy.”
“No Dear, Milk or water”

When your kid is throwing a fit, you don’t negotiate, lmao.

Daughters have this ability. It’s hard for me to judge a father of a daughter because it is a different ballgame than father of a son.
[/quote]

The wife and I don’t have kids so I try not to tell parents how to raise them (despite having had to deal with the consequences of shitty parents during former employment) but he literally negotiates everything he knows will cause her to have a fit such as eating, going places, bedtime, and a host of others. I told her I would spank her if she did anything I told her not to do, such as walking on the dog, so she listened to me.
[/quote]

All I’m trying to say is there is a fine line every parent has to walk with their kids. And each line is different as each kid is different.

I’m not judging anyone here, just offering perspective.

Because first off, everyone has the best laid plans, and knows perfectly how to raise kids… Until they actually come out, and then the people realized what everyone does in that situation. You don’t know shit and you just do your best.

And secondly, I don’t care how much anyone does or doesn’t know, how much this or that trick worked for this parent or that parent… All that matters when it comes down to it is if you keep trying to jam a round peg into a square hole, you end up ruining the peg.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
By the way, PR, we all know, was the reason behind the fine, so it cannot really “notwithstand.”[/quote]

This is more what I was getting at. I don’t think the co-worker aspect really was all that relevant. We all know the NFL is fretting over PR issues with anti-LGBT bias, as that’s not debatable. Given that the Tweet made came across to most any reasonable person as being pejorative, I suspect that he could have made the same exact Tweet about another public figure, say Anderson Cooper, and the consequences may well have been the same because of a) the nature of the comment and b) PR issues.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I think what CB is pointing out is that offering choices is good (do you want to brush your teeth first or put on your pajamas first?). [/quote]

Yes.

Some kids will lose their shit over even this simple type choice, but you have to teach your kids to choose if you expect them to be any good at it when the time comes.

These type of choices also foster independence and self reliance. Proverbial baby steps in allowing a child to control their life, one inconsequential step at a time.

This all looks like a protracted game of “You said a bad word and I’m telling on you!”, except that the words have now expanded to encompass whole subjects and ideas.

I’m with SMH on this- This ugly baby was birthed by academia, and now they don’t even want to admit that it is theirs.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
This ugly baby was birthed by academia, and now they don’t even want to admit that it is theirs.
[/quote]

This is critical theory at it’s finest… The breaking point where it begins to eat itself alive.

SO in that vein, yes, the pinko leftist really did do this to themselves… They’ve thought policed themselves to the point where they can’t even thought police anymore.

lmao

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

I’m with SMH on this- This ugly baby was birthed by academia, and now they don’t even want to admit that it is theirs.
[/quote]

That’s frickin’ poetic.