Density is a tool and can be used for progression but there is most certainely a limit. For a demonstration let’s say you are incline pressing 185x10 for 3 sets with 60 seconds rest. You can slowly widdle your way down to doing 10 seconds rest over time but where are you going from there? It just becomes one long rest paused set at that point. You can add volume by inreasing the sets, but where do you stop at, 5-10 20+ 100+? The load is where progression should be looked at as paramount in my opinion. You are nearly limitless in how high you can progress with weights. No, nobody will likely build up to 700 lb incline presses for reps but you can sure as hell try.
You have to look at the people around you and those that have come before us. In referring to big guys some of them train fast, some of them train slow, some low volume(mentzer type) some high volume(arnold etc). What is the one thing that is definetly common between almost all of them excusing genetic aliens like Paul Dillet? They all progressed ten fold in their weights for reps on the exercises they felt worked best for them. The biggest guy in your gym, does he lift the same weights as you?
If the answer is no and you want to be the biggest guy in your gym, it would make sense to maybe figure out a way to get your weights as high or in a similar range to that person. Please let’s not take this to powerlifters are strong but not big(ha that’s a laugh) or I know a guy who’s huge and I’m stronger than him(maybe you aren’t doing your work in the kitchen yeah?). In GENERAL this is what you see and what should be applied by most.
And as far as intensity in the bodybuilding world. It has always and will always be the effort put into a set or workout. Yes textbooks define intensity as a percentage of a one rep max but try this for me.
If you leg press on a regular basis take your best deep knees to armpits six rep max and cut it in half. If you are using ten plates a side use five, round approximately to the nearest plate or twenty five. No matter how long it takes you and without ever racking the weight or locking out the knees at the top do fifty, yes fifty repetitions with that half weight you have. If you make it(it takes balls) come back here and tell everyone that was a real low intense leg workout. Tell everyone about how you likely fell down trying to stand up after the set or how long you laid down on the floor fighting back the vomit(if you could). That is intensity and nobody is going to convince me in this context otherwise.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Shadowzz4 wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
I’m not trying to start an argument, but increasing density for the sake of it does practically nothing for me. I do much better waiting a bit longer and being able to pour more intensity into the next set. Increasing density just wears me out quicker. By density I am here referring to trying to do the same amount of work in less time, shorter rest periods in a nutshell.
You havent given it a chance. If you get into the groove with this style of training you will see a difference. Especially from a hypertrophy standpoint. But there is a bit of lag while your body gets accustomed to doing this style of training and just like you said you basically feel like your getting nothing out of it initially until your body starts to adjust.
I tried with rest periods at 1 minute or less for a month one time and it just doesn’t fit what I’m trying to do. Actually it wasn’t until after I went back to longer rest periods that it really clicked how much better it works for me. I’m not saying it’s stupid or that others may not find value in it.[/quote]
I have always found that 1min rest intervals are as low as I go. Usually when switching between styles I will use 1:30 rest. That is hard enough as it is. The weight reduction you have to use initially with :60 second rests are too drastic, and almost too difficult to get used to. I think it works well to start with 2min rests then go down from there, :60 seconds being as low as you would ever want to go IMO.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Spanish Barbell wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
I do not like, outside of a lab, defining intensity as the % of 1RM. It’s not a law and it doesn’t make anybody who does an idiot, I just don’t like like it. I learned intensity as ferocity of effort, in other words proximity to absolute limitations read closeness to failure.
One small part of my life would be fulfilled if % of 1RM were called something other than intensity, like maybe percentage of one rep max.
Ok. If intensity is equal to a percentage of effort, why not beam sets of 100 repetitions? . They are much more “intense”, dont you think? .
Depending on the 100 rep set yes. An actual 1RM could be maximally intense as well, and anything in between.[/quote]
The reason %of 1rm is used as intensity is because, you can pretty much guarantee how hard you are going to have to work to do an exercise based on a percentage of 1rm. What you mentioned is important but is impossible to quantify.
[quote]scottiscool wrote:
And as far as intensity in the bodybuilding world. It has always and will always be the effort put into a set or workout. Yes textbooks define intensity as a percentage of a one rep max but try this for me.
If you leg press on a regular basis take your best deep knees to armpits six rep max and cut it in half. If you are using ten plates a side use five, round approximately to the nearest plate or twenty five. No matter how long it takes you and without ever racking the weight or locking out the knees at the top do fifty, yes fifty repetitions with that half weight you have. If you make it(it takes balls) come back here and tell everyone that was a real low intense leg workout. Tell everyone about how you likely fell down trying to stand up after the set or how long you laid down on the floor fighting back the vomit(if you could). That is intensity and nobody is going to convince me in this context otherwise.
[/quote]
Your getting into the way a word is used. If you really want intense just do leg presses straight for 24 hours with only 10lbs on each side, NOW That is intense!!! I mean where does it end? No shit that is an intense leg press workout you mentioned, its just a different use of the word.
This isnt english class its a bodybuilding forum.
Block- a hollow rectangular building unit usually of artificial material.
Oh yea well play a game of football and when that fullback knocks you to the ground to make way for his running back and your neck hurts try and come and tell me that isnt a block! Forget that rectangular building unit! Dude wake up.
Ok lets use your example. So that leg press workout is your example of high intensity. Lets say your max deadlift is 500lbs. You get down and you pull it. That is intensity because you better be in the right place physically and mentally or you wont be able to do 1rep. Your leg press example is more like hard intervals. So what?! Try to run straight up a 30 degree incline as fast as you can and see how long you make it and tell me how you feel afterward. Same as your example. Mental toughness and an intense attitude toward your workout is not the same thing as working at a high intensity in the weight room.
Block- a hollow rectangular building unit usually of artificial material.
Oh yea well play a game of football and when that fullback knocks you to the ground to make way for his running back and your neck hurts try and come and tell me that isnt a block! Forget that rectangular building unit! Dude wake up.
[/quote]
Which if we were on a sports forum in the football section using the term block would be immediately thought of how football players have always used it. Do you see my point?
Let’s just end this because it’s not even what the OP was asking about.
If I’m talking in an exercise physiology class I’ll use the definition of intensity they want and use in that context. If I’m talking to a group of bodybuilders I’m going to use the way they define intensity, that’s it.
Is an intense attitude a percent of my maximum attitdue?
[quote]scottiscool wrote:
And as far as intensity in the bodybuilding world. It has always and will always be the effort put into a set or workout. Yes textbooks define intensity as a percentage of a one rep max but try this for me.
If you leg press on a regular basis take your best deep knees to armpits six rep max and cut it in half. If you are using ten plates a side use five, round approximately to the nearest plate or twenty five. No matter how long it takes you and without ever racking the weight or locking out the knees at the top do fifty, yes fifty repetitions with that half weight you have. If you make it(it takes balls) come back here and tell everyone that was a real low intense leg workout. Tell everyone about how you likely fell down trying to stand up after the set or how long you laid down on the floor fighting back the vomit(if you could). That is intensity and nobody is going to convince me in this context otherwise.
[/quote]
I couldn’t agree more.
@Shadowz:
Personally I have no need to externally quantify intensity. In fact I would go so far as to say that for a lotta guys the preoccupation with formulas and quantification is holding them back. I KNOW and FEEL whether what I’m doing is working or not. I don’t mean to come off as an arrogant mystical elitest, but I’m telling you the truth. Beyond the first few weeks of getting started I have never gotten much out of even keeping a log. My workouts are simple enough so I remember what I’m doing.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
scottiscool wrote:
And as far as intensity in the bodybuilding world. It has always and will always be the effort put into a set or workout. Yes textbooks define intensity as a percentage of a one rep max but try this for me.
If you leg press on a regular basis take your best deep knees to armpits six rep max and cut it in half. If you are using ten plates a side use five, round approximately to the nearest plate or twenty five. No matter how long it takes you and without ever racking the weight or locking out the knees at the top do fifty, yes fifty repetitions with that half weight you have. If you make it(it takes balls) come back here and tell everyone that was a real low intense leg workout. Tell everyone about how you likely fell down trying to stand up after the set or how long you laid down on the floor fighting back the vomit(if you could). That is intensity and nobody is going to convince me in this context otherwise.
I couldn’t agree more.
@Shadowz:
Personally I have no need to externally quantify intensity. In fact I would go so far as to say that for a lotta guys the preoccupation with formulas and quantification is holding them back. I KNOW and FEEL whether what I’m doing is working or not. I don’t mean to come off as an arrogant mystical elitest, but I’m telling you the truth. Beyond the first few weeks of getting started I have never gotten much out of even keeping a log. My workouts are simple enough so I remember what I’m doing. [/quote]
Im not saying that what you are saying doesnt work, it does and I train many exercises the same way. For me there are some exercises where working in percentages of 1rm work others Ive found are better doing what your saying. I am not debating whether or not what you do gets results.
You guys are looking at the typical use of %1rm loads and saying “well it might be 65% 1rm but it is really intense to me because I am concentrating on it!” It seems like you think people who use %1rm to quantify their traing loads look down on people who use low %1rm, it doesnt make any sense what you are talking about.
Especially for bodybuilding style training the way you are lifting is probably much more effective than going by %1rm, it does matter when doing powerlifting and such though.
That’s fine and like I say I just don’t like the % of 1RM definition. They snuck it in on me. I never learned it that way or heard of it before somewhat recently. It was never used that way by anybody I knew and it is finally of no use for the way I train on top of all that.
That doesn’t make it technically incorrect or anybody who uses it a moron. I just don’t like it. It reminds me of Microsoft doing something like renaming network neighborhood to my network places after everybody got used to it being network neighborhood.
Bodybuilding is about accomplishing some type of aesthetic goal. Whether professional or some every day guy in the gym getting ready for the beach. While circuit training can and will make improvements, it is not nearly enough for the professional bodybuilder, or even someone with a specific bodypart in mind.
The body does not build itself equally all at once, as you get stronger you will not be able to apply the same intensity(%of 1 rep max, or effort) as you would by concentrating on one goal. By not applying maximum intensity, you will not reach maximum gains.
