You don’t need to sweat optimal right now: effective is more than enough
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What results have all the “optimal” stuff you’ve read and applied in the last 7 years gotten you?
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Reasonable minds may differ about this point. Christian Thibaudeau is an excellent coach, trainer, and lifter, and his “Best Damn…” series heavily promotes weekly frequency instead of weekly volume. However, other equally knowledgeable people, such as Dr. Hyght, have great success with higher volume, once-weekly sessions for each muscle group.
It boils down to personal experience. Try a couple-few different programs using different styles, doing each as the coach wrote it, and compare how they affect you. I’ve learned through the years I can’t gain chest pressing strength if I only work my chest once a week. However, I can get stronger at both squats and deadlifts if I only do each once a week. Therefore, I take that knowledge, gained from experience, and write or choose programs with chest work twice and squats and deadlifts once per week.
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Ok, just so that we don’t get caught up in one direction: Dr Darden (featured here) has written several books on fat loss (for example “Body fat breakthrough” and “Killing fat”) which have been tried out with photographic “evidence” that it actually works!
I highly recommend these, as the methods described worked wonders for me - in building lean muscle. It’s obviously full body programs under the HIT paradigm. Some may not like it, but it is a fairly simplistic approach and also time efficient. Check it out and decide for yourself.
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Good on you coming back!
I agree with everyone here, and @flappinit laid it out.
As you go forward, don’t be afraid to lower calories when you need. The getting weaker while cutting thing is about stage-ready bodybuilders; we aren’t getting close to that.
Also, optimal really doesn’t exist. It’s a phrase people use so they can still sell you something after you’ve been doing something else that clearly works. “Sure you got bigger, but was it optimal???”
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A plan that produces suboptimal gains in strength and size sounds an awful lot to me like a plan that produces gains in strength and size. If OP (or anyone) has a plan that consistently provides ‘suboptimal gains,’ I strongly advise they stick with it.
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You may have noticed people bristle at the mention of “sub-optimal” - a lot of people have avoided gains in the pursuit of “optimal results”.
The program works. It worked for me, it has worked for and been suggested by professional bodybuilders, it has a track record of success and it will help you reach your goals.
Read it, don’t skim it, and run it.
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On “optimal”:
Sometimes that last 10 cents costs the whole dollar.
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7 years and no gains?
I would think 3 weeks on an approach with no results is too long.
I hope you find something in all the advice offered to you to start responding
I am thinking of starting one of the routines suggested here and Im thinking between:
and
Both seem good but volume seems very low on the first one, and frequency seems very low on the second one so I am wondering which one you guys would recommend specifically for muscle growth and energy expenditure, not really trying to max out on any lifts for 1-3 reps.
“volume seems very low on the first one”
how have you benefited from higher volume?
“frequency seems very low on the second one”
more frequent has helped you how?
Try a well-received program that has been offered on this site as written for 3 weeks.
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Cool, I will start this one and see how my body responds:
For progression scheme, I am wondering what is the recommended approach for this ^ ? Doesnt say much on it
A typical progression on similar programs is to start out with fairly light weights in order to perfect the form and learn the program/lifts properly.
Make sure you keep notes in a training journal and then gradually increase the weights when form allows it. It often takes me 3-4 weeks to get all weights right. Next up is to beat the journal. Just my way of doing things.
It is said that it’s only the newest and/or most experienced lifters that keep a journal. Sometimes I wonder where I belong - but nevertheless I have my notes to thank for controlled progression. Many experienced lifters that maintain a training log on here - keep a journal. Get influenced.
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I think my form is ok, I have been traiing for a while but main issue might be how I am trying to progress and volume etc.
I’ll keep a log and try this program out for 3 weeks and see how it suits me, hopefully wont be spinning wheels again
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You should definitely start a training journal on here man! Great place to track your progress and have like minded people to encourage you and bounce ideas off
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This program also looks pretty good (and Jeff is a smart guy)
Dude, you could already be on day 3 of the program I suggested and you’re still pondering programs?
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He’s probably thinking there’s one out of all of them that will give him the best results.
Here are things you know: after 7 years of training and dieting in a manner that you thought was a good approach, you got minimal results.
It stands to reason that, if something seems like a BAD approach to you: it’s probably the approach you need to follow.
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The program you suggested is very similar to Jeff Nippard’s hypertrophy program (body part split), almost exactly the same actually, but Jeff’s has a proper progression scheme built into with 8 week cycles, I’ll be starting this one tomorrow. Let’s see where I am at the end of 8 weeks. Thanks for your help.