To Bush supporters

Off Topic
81

Ranger

Maybe Im not being clear enough. Im not talking about the price at the pumps for the average American although, in the end, it would be the issue. Im talking about national security, Im talking about having enough fuel to run two wars on different fronts, Im talking about the real reason stability in the middle east matters, not b/c freedom, not b/c of terrorism, and not b/c of the UN, although that was the whole purpose of the resolution, stability.
But your response is the perfect reason our administration cant be honest. Apparently oil isnt important enough.
You see, Saudi Arabia is a timebomb. It will blow, it has too. The regime is too oppressive and is not inline with the general populations religious status quo. We know this. But guess what, we still need the lifeblood of our economy, oil. It feeds us, it transports us, it keeps all of us alive. Its not just about convenience at the pump, this is narrowminded.
The results of losing our incoming oil from Saudi are staggering. Every five or six times you pull up at that pump your using something that started as Saudi crude. A conservative estimate would put barrels at $90 a barrel initially. Now mind you this doesnt factor that panic that would ensue. The wild speculative buying…
And what about wild card disruptions in Venezuela or Nigeria? Easily, oil would shoot over $100. This would cause a shift in excess of 1.5 trillion bucks to the Muslim world. Our accumulated debt wasnt this high until the mid 1980s (have to check that stat). We are talking about an economic collapse that would be at least as bad or worse than the Great depression. Americans would starve, not just have jobs or cheap gasoline ranger. Thats why stability matters, of course I guess Israel too. But Iraqi freedom, who cares?

82

I dont think the war in Iraq was necessary if environmentalists would shut up and realize whats really important here. However, Im not saying that Im against the war, I am against it for the reasons that Bush spouts on TV, I wont vote for Kerry, hes a socialist, I wouldnt vote for Bush either, but I guess I dont have a choice.

83

DAMNIT…Vote 3rd party then!

mikeyali

84

xMillertimex -

“Iraqi freedom, who cares?”

Dammit, I fucking care. How dare you even say something like that. Think if it was you over there. Wouldn’t you want someone to come over there and help your poor ass out?? YOU didn’t see first hand how those people lived. I know people are being murdered and tortured everywhere in the world and I wish to God that we could erradicate this type of inhumanity but we can’t, however we are killing two birds with one stone in this particular situation. For one we are securing stability in an area that is very important to us and we cannot afford that particular area to go to shit, while simultaneously freeing an oppressed people. You think my statements are simpleminded?? Oh fucking please. You seem like you have a lot of wisdom… maybe you should be president. Cuz obviously, you see shit that even the best minds this nation has to offer cannot see. Like I said, I get my information from personal experience and from friends actually participating in this fucking war; unlike you who reads this shit off the internet or sees it on CNN. Anyways, sorry about the rant everybody, this post kinda set me off. RLTW

-When in doubt, flip it to burst.

rangertab75

85

Terrorism isn’t a factor in the war in Iraq…Ha fucking ha. RLTW

-When in doubt, flip it to burst.

rangertab75

86

Thought this was pretty funny. RLTW

87

excellent post rangertab, im with you totally.

88

“How dare I say this stuff.”

1)Let me try again. Fuck 'em.

“You should be president”
2)Well thanks, maybe I will if I can count on your vote and we go to a three party system.

“Read this stuff on the internet or see it on CNN.”
3)Making a pretty big assumption there ranger. You see Ive tried to tip you off up to this point. I am a vet, I have buried my buddies. In fact, lets take this step further, I also have a lot of friends, who tried to get me to go with em, who now work for security contractors. Even further, my family has lost men in just about every single conflict except the ghan and this second trip to Iraq. So, I understand sacrifice, I understand suffering, and what I am saying is…just for their “freedom”, its not worth it to me.

I dont think that the way you approach this is different than most soldiers. I am definately in the minority about Iraq. But saying that, Im not in the minority with vets I still talk to. Now, granted, this is a wider arrange of people, Im talking vets from Vietnam and Grenada.

Freedom and liberty are definately the two sources of lifeblood that gives this country its greatness. But the fact is, that if people arent willing to fight for it themselves than it will never work anyway. But, in my perspective, Iraq hasnt dumped the tea in the bay, Paul Revere didnt ride, Mel Gibson didnt go get his tomahawk out of the burning house, Iraqis didnt start guillotining their dictators in the public square, and Simon Bolivar hasnt said a word. But, dammit, we are giving the Iraqis freedom just like the democrats want to give us free money from the very popular yet secret money tree. I mean, why not just tell us where its at and everything will be better.
Look at this way man, if the Iraqis get their freedom, we leave, and they elect officials and everything is just dandy…you can look at me and say," Ha you dumb sonuva bitch, I told you so." And every American life will have been lost for freedom of the Iraqis. Or, maybe it wont work out just dandy, but an American friendly Theocracy will emerge and you can say," See I told you so, stability in the middle east." And Ill just nod.

Rangers Lead the Way!

89

MB, the country you wish we lived in would be bordering on the anarchic. A free for all. Thanks, but no thanks.

As humans, we have evolved into something more than the Law of the Jungle.

Thank God.

If you want to live in a country like that, there are plenty of 3rd world countries. Haiti may be the closest one.

90

Re: charities taking care of social ills. That is bullshit and inhumane.

The ultimate conservative wet dream:

“Charities pay for everything; we pay nothing!; la de da de da!”

Nope. Even if the wealthy gave a larger portion of the money they saved from taxes to charities, nobody could force them to - leaving the layer of protection that separates us from being a 3rd world country thin as an egg shell.
If you want to see countries like that, I suggest India, Pakistan, Ethiopia, etc etc.

Again, I understand you want to pay less in taxes, so do I, but I don’t want to see people living in the streets and dying of disease either.
Peace

91

Sonny,

Again, I understand you want to pay less in taxes, so do I, but I don’t want to see people living in the streets and dying of disease either.

How will that happen? Welfare CREATES poverty because there is no incentive to get out of it!

And the rich give to charities like mad…what are you talking about?

92

To sonny,

You know, for the record, right now Im a registered democrat…though I no longer agree with the idealogy.
The most successful charities in the nation arent government run. It is a good counter argument that the rich could horde all of their money in their mansions and not contribute. But, the fact of the matter is, the money gets spent whether the government does it or the rich. And either way, due to a free market, it improves the overall well being of the community. If it doesnt go to a charity but goes to a yacht store thats fine too. Cuz the yacht salesman will employ more people, blah blah, blah. Im sure your sick of hearing Regonomics by now anyway. But, it really works. Why are all rich people evil anyway? I though democrats believed in the basic goodness of humanity?
Heres a funny observation at least for me. (I live with a die hard union man and a rich oil inheritor so I get to see both sides every other night or so) Talk about great arguments. Anyway back to the observation…
Democrats…really want liberty and freedom of religion, speech, and freedom of thought. Whether its abortions we are talking about or just basic tennants that disagree with christianity. This is great. I love this. Thank god the democrats remind us that although our founding fathers “may have” been Christian or at least a majority that doesnt mean Americans are supposed to be. I mean this seriously. I dont want my government to superimpose christianity on everything. Jesus needs to stay in his church. (Im sure this will incite something.)
Republicans…gosh these guys dont want to let us forget that the founding fathers believed in freedom of the economy although they are doing a crappy job of it right now. I mean, most Americans dont mind that we are getting taxed into oblivion from gas to alcohol to cigarettes and maybe soon a fast food tax? This is why we kicked the english to the curb. The constitution “enumerates” what the federal government can and cant do specifically.
And overall, I have never really met anyone that loves bureacracy. (how the hell do you spell that word) How aggravating is it to see millions of dollars wasted or billions if your the department of education and cant seem find that misplaced several tons of dough. Democrats have the right idea, helping people get along better. Republicans have the right too. The problem, federal government isnt supposed to be our mommy and daddy. All of the arguments for welfare and everything else hardly ever base themselves in anything written on the ole yellow parchment. And when they are, well, its really easy to attack it.
I believed FDR saved this country for the longest time, pulled us out of recession. But you know what, hardly any economists provide factual statistics that prove any of the
“Deal” programs did anything but slow the economy down and the same goes for the Marshall plan. Its makes me angry because this crap is taught from the elementary level all the way through the college level by a lot of people but usually “not” economic professors.
Socialism doesnt work. I wish it did.
Politicians feel that communism with 100 percent takeover is too much, but our 40 percent is just the right amount. Hah ha. The best way to check on the government is to watch peoples feet, leaving or staying…
Does government have the possess the wisdom, maturity, power, right and judgement to take money from some and give to others? How about, government schools, medicare, small business admin, head start, DARE programs, farm subsidies, food stamps, FEMA, direc student loans, public housing…less efficient service and less humane than privatized business and private charitable sectors. But at least our hearts are in the right place…
“You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.”
A lot of Republicans think the nation will fall apart if Christianity doesnt stay a foundational element of government…a lot of democrats think the same about freeing up our economy.

93

MB- At the end of your post, you say you’re against welfare. But in previous posts, you state that you’re against all forms of social aid. I presume that when you say welfare, that you’re using it to represent all forms of social aid. Right? Just making sure.

Esp. because they are diff’t things. I am also against welfare, the state giving money directly to people. THe famous welfare check.

But the state must provide food, shelter, health care, education etc to those who don’t have it or can’t afford it- for whatever reason: laziness, ill health, etc.
What if someone is an addict? What if they’re injured on the job? Handicapped? Retarded? Chronically ill?

SHould their children not be able to go to school? Eat? Have a place to sleep? Medical care?

Of course they should.

Again, what you are proposing is an anarchic or possibly aristocratic system, where those who have everything prosper, and everybody else fends for themself.

Again, thank God we have progressed beyond the law of the jungle.

“You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.”

Amen.

94

Sonny you should be ashamed at yourself for this post. You sound like you’re a journalist for the mass media and the New York Times.

Your post just makes me itch for the day that I get to vote for George Bush.

95

Sonny,
I dont want you to be my master. If Im addict, if Im homeless, or hell even if Im just lazy…I honestly can believe you cited that. Why dont you move to a country like Sweden or Canada with their failing socialist systems? THese countries dont have OUR constitution which doesnt provide the power to do what our current politicians are doing but we let it but it “feels good”. I guess the frontiersman were all starving and hungry and lived miserable not worth living lives.
Risk is a part of life. The american dream doesnt exist in your system, of course, neither do the evil rich people. Id rather have Bill Gates, who fails your evil rich guy test, than the anarchy that socialism eventually leads to when it collapses.
Now if you want to talk about state level powers thats different. But, we are talking federal. (Of course, Im against it at the state level too.)
Democrats at the very heart of the party are actually anti-american, which is kind of funny. Unless we amend the constitution and then I will have to move to…I guess Haiti from what youve said so far.

96

Sonny,

Besides the military, name one successful and efficient government system. (although we can argue the military too, but Im baised cuz Im a vet.)

97

Sonny, you are a victim of the mass media’s propaganda and particinship towars the left wing.

Ronald Reagan said it right when he said, “Peace is achieved through strength”
It’s as simple as that.

Bush has an obligation to protect the US, and he’s doing it. He’s doing what he said he would do on 9/11. Destroying terrorists and all those governments who support them. This man is a fucking hero.

Everything I want to say was already said by Rangertab and all you other guys.

This thread makes me itch for the day in November when I get to vote for Bush.

98

Hahahahahaha. What a bunch of rabid knee-jerkers we have here.

I guess Sonny was right when he said people looked at things in black and white. You can have some government support programs without turning into a socialistic system. You’d better be able to, because they are already out there.

Having gone through a spate of unemployment recently that will leave me financially reeling for the next three or four years, I can attest to how thin our way of life is. It can disappear for various reasons without any fault of your own. I have a degree in my field and many years of progressive experience, but the market was not hiring. I can’t even begin to explain how much it hurt my pride to live off oatmeal because a $2 bag would last a week. I was inches from bankruptcy, no phone, no money for any entertainment working crappy hours for crappy pay and just dying to get a career job with real wages again.

When things are going well it easy to have zero pity on the rest of the world. Yes, of course, people should be responsible for their own welfare and they should work for it. However, hoarding all the advantages of wealth and leaving no real reason for hope, you end up with disaffected people who don’t give a shit. Sometimes people suffer adversity for reasons other than stupidy or lack of work ethic. I know.

If, and I mean IF, the government was to get involved I think it should clearly provide a ladder. Everyone should have a chance to achieve and succeed within their own lifetime. It sucks to spend your entire life building a dream for your children by denying yourself everything. It is so easy to send your children to university if you make good wages yourself – and give them every chance to succeed.

Now that my life is put back together again, I can only suggest that you heartless folks who blame the downtrodden for being downtrodden beware of finding yourself in a bad situation through no fault of your own. You won’t like it. It could be an unfair scandal or lawsuit, perhaps a messy divorce, perhaps your job and industry disappear, perhaps you hit a slippery patch of highway and end up unable to work during several years of rehab or maybe you have a child that requires an inordinate amount of medical care.

These things happen to people. It turns their entire lives upside down through no fault of their own. I’m not suggesting the government needs to make their payments, but if they are hard working then we should try to find ways to let them succeed. It isn’t easy to come up with appropriate ways to do so.

I know this is psuedo off-topic, but people who haven’t experienced much life are so quick to assume they can control things and that everyone else should as well. The world changes from time to time and you can’t control it.

It isn’t bad or socialistic to create a system that lets someone find a way to rebuild their lives and reacquire a decent standard of living through their own efforts. Is it? Why can’t we put some effort into making it easier for people to enjoy their lives in a way that contributes to society?

Open your minds and think a bit…

99


Sonny, is this you?

100

MT, I have no idea what you’re talking about.
The American dream doesn’t exist in my vision?
WTF?
We already have these support systems!

Clemenza- you need to reread the whole post. I am not left-wing, and I’m not right-wing.
And what the fuck does our arguing over welfare and types of societies have to do with Bush?

You are some arrogant, heartless, people.
I respect your right to be that way,
but:
Its easy to pick on people who are already down, you know that?

That’s the sign of a bully- pick on those who you see as weaker than yourself.

Wait until something bad happens to you, God forbid.

Maybe Vroom is right: you’re (maybe)young and arrogant and think you’re invincible.

Life isn’t always easy or fair.