To All The Unbelievers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I am faithful to the Truth of God’s Word and give it to as many people as I can. What they do with it, and ultimately their eternal fate, is out of my hands.
[/quote]

again, your desire to bring people to God is admirable, it’s your method that may not be having the outcome you’re hoping for…

hammering people over their heads with the hell-fire and damnation approach doesn’t seem to be working…in fact, it seems to be driving more people away instead of bringing them closer to God…

put The Word out and be a good example, those that are ready will hear it…

282

[quote]pitbull314 wrote:

I agree entirely, one cannot pick and choose what parts of the bible he/she wants to take literally - you must believe it all or not believe in it at all.

[/quote]

Why not? The bible was is a compilation of many different books that were written by man. One person that wrote one book may have been writing more metaphorically than the person that wrote another book.

283

[quote]Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

So, what are your plans for dealing with your sin, since you reject God’s plan.

The problem with your question here is the “since you reject God’s plan.” statement. This implies (and would require) that someone believes in God, believes that he has a plan, and yet after weighing all the pros and cons of their choice regarding the matter, still decides to reject him. Yet, you address your question to all the “UN-believers”, who by definition do NOT believe in God and since there is no God, there can be no plan nor any divine, eternal consequences.

No one is saying that the behaviors you describe as “sins” are admirable or beneficial, these behaviors are reprehensible. They are simply saying that outside of the context in which you have defined the term, it does not have the same significance.[/quote]

284

[quote]tveddy wrote:
pitbull314 wrote:

I agree entirely, one cannot pick and choose what parts of the bible he/she wants to take literally - you must believe it all or not believe in it at all.

Why not? The bible was is a compilation of many different books that were written by man. One person that wrote one book may have been writing more metaphorically than the person that wrote another book.[/quote]

Well it depends on how you view the Bible. If you think it’s merely a historical text, then yes, you can pick and choose.

But if you view it as an instruction manual on salvation, then you cannot.

It would be like reading the blueprints to a bridge and saying, “Yeah, I don’t think they really meant I need to use metal. I’m going to use paper instead…”

285

[quote]remyc88 wrote:
tveddy wrote:
pitbull314 wrote:

I agree entirely, one cannot pick and choose what parts of the bible he/she wants to take literally - you must believe it all or not believe in it at all.

Why not? The bible was is a compilation of many different books that were written by man. One person that wrote one book may have been writing more metaphorically than the person that wrote another book.

Well it depends on how you view the Bible. If you think it’s merely a historical text, then yes, you can pick and choose.

But if you view it as an instruction manual on salvation, then you cannot.

It would be like reading the blueprints to a bridge and saying, “Yeah, I don’t think they really meant I need to use metal. I’m going to use paper instead…” [/quote]

I personally don’t view it as either. I see it (New Testament) as a bunch of books that were written by the followers of Jesus, they depict his teachings, but I don’t believe it to be an instruction manual. I also believe that some of the books that were left out of the bible should also be read to get a better understanding of Jesus’s teachings.

286

[quote]Kainjer wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

So, what are your plans for dealing with your sin, since you reject God’s plan.

The problem with your question here is the “since you reject God’s plan.” statement. This implies (and would require) that someone believes in God, believes that he has a plan, and yet after weighing all the pros and cons of their choice regarding the matter, still decides to reject him. Yet, you address your question to all the “UN-believers”, who by definition do NOT believe in God and since there is no God, there can be no plan nor any divine, eternal consequences.

No one is saying that the behaviors you describe as “sins” are admirable or beneficial, these behaviors are reprehensible. They are simply saying that outside of the context in which you have defined the term, it does not have the same significance.
[/quote]

I think you miss my point. I do address this to unbelievers of every kind. Those who don’t believe in God or Jesus, or those who believe that there is a God, but reject God’s plan of salvation.

People who don’t believe still sin. What I am asking is that if you don’t believe in the plan of salvation – believe on Jesus Christ and Him alone or its Hell – they what is the alternate, you know,“plan B?”

Intuitively, we know that if we speed down the highway at 100 miles per hour in a 45 mile per hour zone, we are probably going to get caught whether or not we believe in traffic laws or judges. When we appear before the traffic court judge, we will face the consequences whether we believe that there are consequences or not.

What I am asking is that since we all sin, and there will be eternal consequences for that sin when we face the Ultimate Judge of the Universe, what is YOUR plan to escape punishment if it is not God’s plan?

287

Well isnt it obvious, we have no plan B.
Now go away.
I’m not a religious man but I really hope the one true faith isn’t yours.
Oh how your face would be red when you found out.
Hopefully I’d be in hell with you laughing away.

288

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

So, what are your plans for dealing with your sin, since you reject God’s plan.

The problem with your question here is the “since you reject God’s plan.” statement. This implies (and would require) that someone believes in God, believes that he has a plan, and yet after weighing all the pros and cons of their choice regarding the matter, still decides to reject him. Yet, you address your question to all the “UN-believers”, who by definition do NOT believe in God and since there is no God, there can be no plan nor any divine, eternal consequences.

No one is saying that the behaviors you describe as “sins” are admirable or beneficial, these behaviors are reprehensible. They are simply saying that outside of the context in which you have defined the term, it does not have the same significance.

I think you miss my point. I do address this to unbelievers of every kind. Those who don’t believe in God or Jesus, or those who believe that there is a God, but reject God’s plan of salvation.

People who don’t believe still sin. What I am asking is that if you don’t believe in the plan of salvation – believe on Jesus Christ and Him alone or its Hell – they what is the alternate, you know, “plan B?”

Intuitively, we know that if we speed doen the highway at 100 miles per hour in a 45 mile per hour zone, we are probably going to get caught whether or not we believe in traffic laws or judges. When we appear before the traffic court judge, we will face the consequences whether we believe that there are consequences or not.

What I am asking is that since we all sin, and there will be eternal consequences for that sin when we face the Ultimate Judge of the Universe, what is YOUR plan to escape punishment if it is not God’s plan?

[/quote]

And you are missing my point. The question you are ultimately proposing still defines “sin” as a christian principle. You are also including the christian idea of “eternal consequences” as reward/punishment for one’s actions in life. People who do not believe in God do not have anyone/thing to be “sinning” against, hence no “sin”. Bad deeds? Yes. Poor choices? Sure. “Sin”, as you define it? No. Nor do people who don’t believe in God worry about or even consider the possibilty of “eternal consequences”.

Why must everything have a purpose? Why is it a common trait of human nature to be unable to accept that we may simply just “be”, without ultimate cause, ultimate design or ultimate purpose? Do we as humans really need to feel that important, when “ultimately” we are not?

Your example of the traffic court is a poor one, as “faith” is not a requirement for believing in traffic courts. One can go to the local court house and ask where the court room that handles traffic matters is. One could even touch the judge who presides over the court room, as he/she is an actual, physical being. “Faith” is a requirement for believing in God. One could walk into any church and ask where God is, and they would receive an abstact answer, one which would require “faith”. The same holds true for any “Ultimate Judge of the Universe”, as you put it.

289

[quote]Kiwigeezer wrote:
Well isnt it obvious, we have no plan B.
Now go away.
I’m not a religious man but I really hope the one true faith isn’t yours.
Oh how your face would be red when you found out.
Hopefully I’d be in hell with you laughing away. [/quote]

Unfortunately, it will be sort of the other way around. Except when we see those who didn’t trust in Christ in the Lake of Fire, it will not be a joyful day at all.

It is interesting to see these views expressed. As a Christian, I view someone going to Hell as a terrible, sad event. You, and others who are unbelievers, seem to take joy and delight in thinking about people like me going to Hell or some other terrible place. Strange isn’t it when you have no “Plan B” (i.e. no faith).

Why would you take so much joy in seeing another person eternally damned?

“Ye must be born again…”

P.S. I am not going away, sorry.

290

[quote]Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

So, what are your plans for dealing with your sin, since you reject God’s plan.

The problem with your question here is the “since you reject God’s plan.” statement. This implies (and would require) that someone believes in God, believes that he has a plan, and yet after weighing all the pros and cons of their choice regarding the matter, still decides to reject him. Yet, you address your question to all the “UN-believers”, who by definition do NOT believe in God and since there is no God, there can be no plan nor any divine, eternal consequences.

No one is saying that the behaviors you describe as “sins” are admirable or beneficial, these behaviors are reprehensible. They are simply saying that outside of the context in which you have defined the term, it does not have the same significance.

I think you miss my point. I do address this to unbelievers of every kind. Those who don’t believe in God or Jesus, or those who believe that there is a God, but reject God’s plan of salvation.

People who don’t believe still sin. What I am asking is that if you don’t believe in the plan of salvation – believe on Jesus Christ and Him alone or its Hell – they what is the alternate, you know, “plan B?”

Intuitively, we know that if we speed doen the highway at 100 miles per hour in a 45 mile per hour zone, we are probably going to get caught whether or not we believe in traffic laws or judges. When we appear before the traffic court judge, we will face the consequences whether we believe that there are consequences or not.

What I am asking is that since we all sin, and there will be eternal consequences for that sin when we face the Ultimate Judge of the Universe, what is YOUR plan to escape punishment if it is not God’s plan?

And you are missing my point. The question you are ultimately proposing still defines “sin” as a christian principle. [/quote]

OK – do you think that lying, stealing, having sex with another man’s wife, are good things? What do you call these things then? [quote]

You are also including the christian idea of “eternal consequences” as reward/punishment for one’s actions in life. People who do not believe in God do not have anyone/thing to be “sinning” against, hence no “sin”. Bad deeds? Yes. Poor choices? Sure. “Sin”, as you define it? No. Nor do people who don’t believe in God worry about or even consider the possibilty of “eternal consequences”.[/quote]

Well, I would say that few criminals ever expect to get caught, and certainly don’t think about the serious consequences for their crimes at the time they are commiting those crimes. This “non-belief” in the consequences still doesn’t make the reality of consequences go away.

Same in the eternal realm.[quote]

Why must everything have a purpose? Why is it a common trait of human nature to be unable to accept that we may simply just “be”, without ultimate cause, ultimate design or ultimate purpose? Do we as humans really need to feel that important, when “ultimately” we are not?[/quote]

Because everything does have a purpose. That’s why. If the little things on Earth have a purpose, how much more the ultimate Creator of the Universe has a purpose? [quote]

Your example of the traffic court is a poor one, as “faith” is not a requirement for believing in traffic courts. One can go to the local court house and ask where the court room that handles traffic matters is. One could even touch the judge who presides over the court room, as he/she is an actual, physical being. “Faith” is a requirement for believing in God. One could walk into any church and ask where God is, and they would receive an abstact answer, one which would require “faith”. The same holds true for any “Ultimate Judge of the Universe”, as you put it.[/quote]

I agree that any tangible example that is of a physical origin is “poor” in the sense that it cannot capture the fulness of eternality. But, acutally, it is a good example for illustration.

The priniciple it illustrates is that we see – i.e. the “normal” course of things – is that “every action has a reaction.” This is even a law of physics. Every wrong has a consequence and even in the human heart and mind we yearn for justice when someone does something horrible to others.

The principle is that no matter if you “believe” in a Judge or not, judgement is coming and therefore when you are before the Divine Judge – we all will be guilty. That is why we need Jesus!

Of course we need to accept Him by faith. Otherwise, if we could see Him physically, faith would not be necessary. However, God’s requirement for salvation is faith, “for without faith, it is impossible to please Him.”

Take care~

291

I have a fair amount of faith that I know as much about the hereafter as yourself.

Humans need to be kept in line I do believe that. The bible for a time did this with its good advice on how to live and the obligatory horror story of what will happen if you didn’t.

To take it literally is a bit naive. Do you think for yourself at all?

You flatlanders must really hate science for all of the fallacies it has exposed in the bible, where exactly is Heaven in relation to the earth now?

But any way Moses good luck with the converting and I’ll save you a prime seat by the furnace if we’re both wrong.

292

[quote]Kiwigeezer wrote:
I have a fair amount of faith that I know as much about the hereafter as yourself. [/quote]

Really? How? What is your objective source of authority for your information?[quote]

Humans need to be kept in line I do believe that. The bible for a time did this with its good advice on how to live and the obligatory horror story of what will happen if you didn’t. [/quote]

So all of that History of the Jewish people and the predictiv prohecy concerning the progression of the Gentile world kingdoms from Babylon through the Roman Empire – ae just stories designed to keep people in line? Hm…problem is that the historicity of the Bible even agrees witht he secular. Imagine that! [quote]

To take it literally is a bit naive. Do you think for yourself at all? [/quote]

In fact I do think for myself. I have decided to follow Jesus. Why is it that someone that has faith is always portrayed as shutting their brains off. I happen to be a mathematics teacher and have great respect for the human mind, the human capacity for thought, and true science. The fact is that I believe that God gave us our brains and capacity to figure out all that we have. This does not mean that we created ourselves, our brains, or have given ourselves the capacity for rational thought.

You, my friend, seem to be towing the 'ol atheistic/evolutionist line of argumentation. So, I guess, I should ask you – Do you think for yourself? [quote]

You flatlanders must really hate science for all of the fallacies it has exposed in the bible, where exactly is Heaven in relation to the earth now? [/quote]

What fallacious items are you talking about? What, excactly, has science exposed about the Bible?

Where is Heaven in relation to the Earth? I don’t know, God hasn’t told us. I do know that it is infinitely higher than the Earth (Isa. 55:8-9).

Let me ask you this though, Mr. Science. What color is the wind? Can you answer that? Does that make science false? I suggest that you think through your positions before posting them. [quote]

But any way Moses good luck with the converting and I’ll save you a prime seat by the furnace if we’re both wrong.

[/quote]

Thanks Ahab!

293

Ha ha you make me laugh.

Whats is the age of earth or the universe for that matter?
6 Day creation?
How long did Adam live for again?
Dinosaurs on the Ark?

Great book man i can see why id go on bodybuilding site and promote it.

294

Sorry quite rude I didn?t answer your first question.
I have no authoritative source on what happens after we die. You have a book written by man, not god. What?s really the difference? Because I’m sure if I took certain substances I’d see/hear god. It doesn?t make it true though. Mould on grains can make you have psychotic episodes and have you considered untreated schizophrenia.

Now, the clincher, did you discover Christianity or were you born into it?

I really can’t see why we can?t just do good for the sake of, why do we have to get rewarded or punished for our actions.
Seems like very selfish reasons to help your fellow man don’t you think?

295

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
Kainjer wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

So, what are your plans for dealing with your sin, since you reject God’s plan.

The problem with your question here is the “since you reject God’s plan.” statement. This implies (and would require) that someone believes in God, believes that he has a plan, and yet after weighing all the pros and cons of their choice regarding the matter, still decides to reject him. Yet, you address your question to all the “UN-believers”, who by definition do NOT believe in God and since there is no God, there can be no plan nor any divine, eternal consequences.

No one is saying that the behaviors you describe as “sins” are admirable or beneficial, these behaviors are reprehensible. They are simply saying that outside of the context in which you have defined the term, it does not have the same significance.

I think you miss my point. I do address this to unbelievers of every kind. Those who don’t believe in God or Jesus, or those who believe that there is a God, but reject God’s plan of salvation.

People who don’t believe still sin. What I am asking is that if you don’t believe in the plan of salvation – believe on Jesus Christ and Him alone or its Hell – they what is the alternate, you know,“plan B?”

Intuitively, we know that if we speed down the highway at 100 miles per hour in a 45 mile per hour zone, we are probably going to get caught whether or not we believe in traffic laws or judges. When we appear before the traffic court judge, we will face the consequences whether we believe that there are consequences or not.

What I am asking is that since we all sin, and there will be eternal consequences for that sin when we face the Ultimate Judge of the Universe, what is YOUR plan to escape punishment if it is not God’s plan?
[/quote]

your question has been answered several times Steveo. You just need to accept that others have a difference of beleif/opinion/faith. You beleive you have an absolute truth because your faith requires you to. Congratulations. “Everyone who is not Christian will burn forever according to your beleifs,” thanks we are all damned and petrified, you have accomplished your task…time to move on!

I have been told by some in my last posts that “scripture is meant to divide us not unite us” which I feel is ignorant, but based upon that comment that’s what you want to prove; you are rightegeous and the “non-beleivers” are less than you. congratulations.
you are not helping anyone with your banter. Making positive contribuitons to this site and others lives is not your goal. You are on a mission to make yourself feel better and others worse about themselves. If there is a god, and he was here in the flesh he would probably pimp slap you. (you see I dont dismiss the possibility because I keep an open mind, you learn alot more that way)

296

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
In fact I do think for myself. I have decided to follow Jesus. Why is it that someone that has faith is always portrayed as shutting their brains off.[/quote]

Let’s see:

Talking serpents, burning bushes, walking on water, all of earth’s animals on a boat, a 6000 years old universe, talking trees, a talking ass (no, not you steve0, the one in Numbers 22), virgin births, resurrecting the dead, people living to be 600, 800, 900 etc., a rod becoming a serpent, locusts covering the earth, a flat earth, God unable to beat iron chariots, “thou shalt not kill” vs. “shall surely be put to death”, unicorns and dragons, giants, killing people for pissing against a wall, God chatting with Satan, lake of fires, eternal damnation from a loving God, smiting of various persons and objects for abitrary reasons, a guy living inside a whale, creating bread and fishes out of thin air, magically healing the sick, mismatched genealogies, spirits, demons, shitloads of contradictions and innacuracies; tacit support for slavery, sexism, favored people, vegetarians as weaklings, pretty much the whole book of Revelation, and on and on.

The fact that you profess to believe in all those things as being the “Truth”, the inspired Word of God, etc. has some of us wondering about your higher brain functions (or lack of such).

297

[quote]Kiwigeezer wrote:
Ha ha you make me laugh.

Whats is the age of earth or the universe for that matter?
6 Day creation?
How long did Adam live for again?
Dinosaurs on the Ark?

Great book man i can see why id go on bodybuilding site and promote it.

[/quote]

Right it is all fantasy. Not like your Darwinian Evolution. Let’s see…

Here are the choices:

(1) God Created everything.

(2) Long long time ago, far far away, it rained on the rocks, and the soup filled the oceans, and clumps of stuff formed cells and they came alive and then millions and millions of years later they grew feet and walked out of the water and millions and millions of years later they became my ‘grandpappy.’

Whose laughing now…

298

[quote]Kiwigeezer wrote:
Sorry quite rude I didn?t answer your first question.
I have no authoritative source on what happens after we die.[/quote]

Thanks for your honesty. Basically, you made it up in your head and you choose to believe its true. [quote]

You have a book written by man, not god. [/quote]

How do you know this? What if you’re dead wrong? Isn’t there a possibility that you are wrong?[quote]

What?s really the difference? Because I’m sure if I took certain substances I’d see/hear god.[/quote]

Yes, but I take no substances at all and I have a close relationship with God through Jesus. What are you saying? Are you equating people that have faith in the God of the Bible with some crackheads? Is this even an intelligent comment? [quote]

It doesn?t make it true though. Mould on grains can make you have psychotic episodes and have you considered untreated schizophrenia.[/quote]

What are you talking about? You seem a bit disoriented? Are you taking meds and perhaps forgot one or two? I really am not kidding, you sounded fairly intelligent in your previous posts, but this…???[quote]

Now, the clincher, did you discover Christianity or were you born into it?[/quote]

Neither. Jesus found me – that’s right, 12 years ago, someone told me about Jesus and what He did for me on the cross. I considered it and I considered myself. I say myself as a filthy rotten sinner (which I am still except that I have been saved by the Grace of God) and I repented (turned from) my sinful ways and asked Jesus to save me. He has done a work inside of me and has taken me out of the gutter of sin and placed me in His family where now I can serve Him instead of serving my sin.

Thanks for asking![quote]

I really can’t see why we can?t just do good for the sake of, why do we have to get rewarded or punished for our actions.
Seems like very selfish reasons to help your fellow man don’t you think?[/quote]

Not really. Seems just like what we encounter on a smaller scale here. If I throw a brick through someone’s window and the police catch me, does it matter that I don’t think I should get punished? Would it matter when I go before the judge and say to him, “Look judge, why do we have to get punished or rewarded for our deeds. Can we just forget about this crazy system and all get along?”

Do you really think (if he is a just judge) that he will just let me go? Of course not!

Same thing here, but only it is in the spiritual dimension with eternal everlasting consequences that are on the line.

The main point is that rewards and punishments are exactly what we encounter on a daily basis. These form the basis for some of the behavioral therapies in modern psychology. Therefore, I am unclear as to why you would think this is so strange.

299

[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
In fact I do think for myself. I have decided to follow Jesus. Why is it that someone that has faith is always portrayed as shutting their brains off.

Let’s see:

Talking serpents, burning bushes, walking on water, all of earth’s animals on a boat, a 6000 years old universe, talking trees, a talking ass (no, not you steve0, the one in Numbers 22), virgin births, resurrecting the dead, people living to be 600, 800, 900 etc., a rod becoming a serpent, locusts covering the earth, a flat earth, God unable to beat iron chariots, “thou shalt not kill” vs. “shall surely be put to death”, unicorns and dragons, giants, killing people for pissing against a wall, God chatting with Satan, lake of fires, eternal damnation from a loving God, smiting of various persons and objects for abitrary reasons, a guy living inside a whale, creating bread and fishes out of thin air, magically healing the sick, mismatched genealogies, spirits, demons, shitloads of contradictions and innacuracies; tacit support for slavery, sexism, favored people, vegetarians as weaklings, pretty much the whole book of Revelation, and on and on.

The fact that you profess to believe in all those things as being the “Truth”, the inspired Word of God, etc. has some of us wondering about your higher brain functions (or lack of such).[/quote]

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth.”

"In the beginning – “bang!” Then it rained on the rocks, the soup became thick, the clumps came together and somehow came alive, they grew legs, walked out of the water, became animals, became monkeys, and the presto “It’s Pookie!”

What were you saying about brain functions?

300

[quote]pookie wrote:
Talking serpents, burning bushes, walking on water, all of earth’s animals on a boat, a 6000 years old universe, talking trees, a talking ass (no, not you steve0, the one in Numbers 22), virgin births, resurrecting the dead, people living to be 600, 800, 900 etc., a rod becoming a serpent, locusts covering the earth, a flat earth, God unable to beat iron chariots, “thou shalt not kill” vs. “shall surely be put to death”, unicorns and dragons, giants, killing people for pissing against a wall, God chatting with Satan, lake of fires, eternal damnation from a loving God, smiting of various persons and objects for abitrary reasons, a guy living inside a whale, creating bread and fishes out of thin air…[/quote]

That sounds so freaking awesome when you put it that way. How can you not believe?

Is this available in a pop-up book? 'Cause that would rock.