[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Do you remember who started this war? We were alright minding our own business until 9/11.[/quote]
The United States has not minded their own business since 1898. Not that we were wrong in every instance, but we have had plenty of involvement in the creation and maintaing of Israel and in opposing arab countries.
So don’t make it sound like we were just moseying along when they just thought to attack us because they “hate our freedom.”
[quote]GCF wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]thelifter wrote:
Do you remember who started this war? We were alright minding our own business until 9/11. I guess we could have minding our own business when the Soviets decided to invade Afganistan. Then you all would be Atheistic Communists. We also could have minded our own business when we discovered oil in Saudi Arabia. The money flows in to the Middle East because of American Capitalism.[/quote]
Oh you were being serious? Sorry I thought you were being very funny and clever, clearly not.
Before you start jumping up and down and calling me some kind of America hating Muslim loving nut job (which is not true), your bizarre take is just as lunatic. To think that American political and military involvement had nothing to do with the attacks is pretty blind. And to imply that America’s involvement in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia is some kind of altruistic action with no self interest is somewhat desperate.
[/quote]
Is what I said wrong? Did I say that there were no benefits to America? I will say we have helped out a lot of people around the world, including the Middle East. We pay out a lot of money in aid every year more than every country combined. We would like to hear Thank You now and again. We have gotten two things from the Middle East. Oil and Terrorism. We want our soldiers home just as you want them out of there. If the Moderate Muslims would start helping us weed out the radical Fundamentalists then we would go back to minding our own business. All the Moderates do is pay lip service. We can not control them. To me that means they are on their side. You can do the math.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Do you remember who started this war? We were alright minding our own business until 9/11.[/quote]
The United States has not minded their own business since 1898. Not that we were wrong in every instance, but we have had plenty of involvement in the creation and maintaing of Israel and in opposing arab countries.
So don’t make it sound like we were just moseying along when they just thought to attack us because they “hate our freedom.” [/quote]
We do help Israel. In my religious opinion I think a lot of our prosperity has come as a blessing from God for taking care of his people. Everyone will have their own opinions about this, but they are my opinions.
Rosie, so you are saying that we help a people create a Democracy in the Middle East, so Terrorists have the right to fly planes into civilian buildings. I will not bring up the Pentagon because that is a military fortification. You want a war you will get a war. When the Muslims control their extremeists then we will pull out of their countries. We want peace, but do they want peace.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Do you remember who started this war? We were alright minding our own business until 9/11.[/quote]
The United States has not minded their own business since 1898. Not that we were wrong in every instance, but we have had plenty of involvement in the creation and maintaing of Israel and in opposing arab countries.
So don’t make it sound like we were just moseying along when they just thought to attack us because they “hate our freedom.” [/quote]
Oh, my dear irish brother . . . We were minding our business in 1780’s when our new nation’s citizens and merchants were being captured, murdered, sold into slavery and their property stolen by Muslims SIMPLY because we were vulnerable. So our first interaction as a nation with the islamic world was to be the victims of unprovoked murder and robbery. Our first major foregn expenditure was ransom and tribute to Muslims.
As I recall the Events of History, it was Americans who then freed North Africa from the Nazi’s, it was American assistance that help free Afghanistan from the Soviets, it was American’s who helped stop the slaughter of Syrian and Lebonese Christians, it was American’s who freed Kuwait from the Iraqi’s, it was American’s who freed Afghanistan from the Taliban, it was American’s who freed Iraq from Hussein’s regime - seems we’ve invested a lot of blood in the sands of the ME on behalf of ALL Arabs.
Opposing Arab countries? Care to name an instance of opposing a friendly nation? We have reacted with strength against those who try to harm us and with open arms to those who greet us with peace. Sometimes working with a friendly nation has turned back to bite us (ie - Iraq, Afghanistan), but we accept that risk because we believe in the best in all people.
Supporting Israel is NOT opposing Arabs - these are not mutually exclusive. Israel has the right to exist as granted by the United Nations.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]GCF wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]thelifter wrote:
Is what I said wrong? Did I say that there were no benefits to America? I will say we have helped out a lot of people around the world, including the Middle East. We pay out a lot of money in aid every year more than every country combined. We would like to hear Thank You now and again. We have gotten two things from the Middle East. Oil and Terrorism. We want our soldiers home just as you want them out of there. If the Moderate Muslims would start helping us weed out the radical Fundamentalists then we would go back to minding our own business. All the Moderates do is pay lip service. We can not control them. To me that means they are on their side. You can do the math.[/quote]
We got three things out of the Middle East: Oil Terrorism and dates… yum.
I just don’t agree with you ‘minding our own business’ stance. Its absurd to claim that US intervention has nothing to do with recent terror attacks. That’s not to say the attacks can be justified - they can’t. But claiming to be an innocent bystanding minding their own business is wrong and certainly won’t help us get our troops out of there any quicker. You can do the math.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
In my religious opinion I think a lot of our prosperity has come as a blessing from God for taking care of his people.[/quote]
When people say America brought 9/11 on themselves they are only half wrong. People like you are the other half to that equation. By confusing reality with fairy tales about ‘chosen people’ you made such conflict viable.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
When people say America brought 9/11 on themselves they are only half wrong. People like you are the other half to that equation. By confusing reality with fairy tales about ‘chosen people’ you made such conflict viable.[/quote]
Right . . . . sure . . . and all those centuries of muslim violence have been just a weird aberration . . .
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
When people say America brought 9/11 on themselves they are only half wrong. People like you are the other half to that equation. By confusing reality with fairy tales about ‘chosen people’ you made such conflict viable.[/quote]
Right . . . . sure . . . and all those centuries of muslim violence have been just a weird aberration . . .[/quote]
It’s a culmination of Christian and Islamic stupidity. Stop trying to paint yourselves as the martyrs here, the only reason you don’t execute for apostasy is because Christianity is politically hobbled.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
When people say America brought 9/11 on themselves they are only half wrong. People like you are the other half to that equation. By confusing reality with fairy tales about ‘chosen people’ you made such conflict viable.[/quote]
Right . . . . sure . . . and all those centuries of muslim violence have been just a weird aberration . . .[/quote]
No, but that is just perfectly normal human behavior.
It is just that they at least do not BS us too much about their motives, people who kill other people in the name of “helping” them are much harder to stomach though.
edited
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Stop trying to paint yourselves as the martyrs here, the only reason you don’t execute for apostasy is because Christianity is politically hobbled.[/quote]
Err, we’re hobbled by our own choosing. Or, were you under the impression that Christian fear of the massive (hardy-har) atheist army caused us to cool our jets? You don’t live under fear of execution because WE decided it should be so. Period.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Stop trying to paint yourselves as the martyrs here, the only reason you don’t execute for apostasy is because Christianity is politically hobbled.[/quote]
Err, we’re hobbled by our own choosing. Or, were you under the impression that Christian fear of the massive (hardy-har) atheist army caused us to cool our jets? You don’t live under fear of execution because WE decided it should be so. WE came to this decision. Period. To argue anything else is nonsense.[/quote]
Atheist Army? No, secular reasoning.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If the Moderate Muslims would start helping us weed out the radical Fundamentalists then we would go back to minding our own business. All the Moderates do is pay lip service. We can not control them. To me that means they are on their side. You can do the math.[/quote]
You and Irish Steel are on a roll (See Fail).
How do you suppose moderate Muslims are to “weed” out the radical Fundies? Tell them, in a stern manner, to stop being radical? Make fun of their moms? Tell them they are a bunch poo poo heads and are not nice?
I suppose next time Fred Phelps and his church of awesome are in the news for stating something totally obvious, like God hates America, that I should ask you to “weed” out the radical Fundies and to control them.
I also hold you moderate Christians accountable for all the Tim McVeigh types as well.
Sound fair?
And not just lip service, I want action.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
As I recall the Events of History, it was Americans who then freed North Africa from the Nazi’s, it was American assistance that help free Afghanistan from the Soviets, it was American’s who helped stop the slaughter of Syrian and Lebonese Christians, it was American’s who freed Kuwait from the Iraqi’s, it was American’s who freed Afghanistan from the Taliban, it was American’s who freed Iraq from Hussein’s regime - seems we’ve invested a lot of blood in the sands of the ME on behalf of ALL Arabs.
[/quote]
Our military defeat of Rommel in N. Africa had nothing to do with freeing anyone. We’ve been over this. The government doesn’t care about this altruistic crap you keep rattling on about.
We (U.S government) supported the radical Fundies you adore so much to fight the Soviets and now we are fighting them ourselves in A-stan. How ironic.
Remember that term “Blowback” I mentioned in a previous thread?
How ironic, again.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Stop trying to paint yourselves as the martyrs here, the only reason you don’t execute for apostasy is because Christianity is politically hobbled.[/quote]
Err, we’re hobbled by our own choosing. Or, were you under the impression that Christian fear of the massive (hardy-har) atheist army caused us to cool our jets? You don’t live under fear of execution because WE decided it should be so. WE came to this decision. Period. To argue anything else is nonsense.[/quote]
Atheist Army? No, secular reasoning.[/quote]
Can’t be secular reasoning. How does “secular reasoning” stave off us fundamentalists? Especially when we’ve outnumbered you atheists for a good long time? Most certainly at the cessastion of such practices, at least. It is Christian reasoning that retired the burning of witches and apostates. You honestly think your minority just “reasoned” it away FOR us? If we were half as fanatical as you implied, we’d be doing it still today. No paltry atheist army would have a chance at stopping us. Your political “hobbles” would be cast down effortlessly. And then, we’d hobble you. Unfortunately, for you guys, we just won’t do it. Wouldn’t it be cool if you guys actually had to live in your Dawkins inspired Christian-Fanatic fantasyland? You guys could make all those cool subversive pamphlets. Meet in basements with passwords. Start some underground atheist radio broadcasts. It’d be totally sweet. The pretend stuff has to be getting boring.
Here’s the reality of it all, you can decry all of the evil of America and whoever else all you want - good for you. Congratulations, you have gained the moral high ground and as you sit there is all of your self-righteous glory, realize that regardless of how wonderfully smug you may feel for all of your incredible narrow-mindedness, it does not change the one fact that I keep repeating to you over and over:
Islam always was, now is and will always be a threat to Western Civilization. Western Civilization can make room for the Muslim, but Islam cannot allow room for Western Civilization.
As you sit there in all you self-righteousness, realize that one day you will have to choose to submit to Islam or fight Islam.
You can spout all of the atrocities committed by America - great - atrocity or not, Islam calls for the destruction/submission of everything and everyone.
You call them radical Muslims, I call them authentic Muslims and there are at least 350 million of them ready and willing to kill you to usher in the golden global rule of Allah.
I choose to not blind myself to this reality.
yes, America has gotten it wrong, but when we have it was not intended to destroy an entire way of life, a nation or a culture - the same cannot be said for Islam.
I have shown over and over that the foundational values and principles of Islam demand war against the west - it did in 632 AD and still does today.
All of you apologist have a myopic view of a very narrow band of history and you are the only ones who do!
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Here’s the reality of it all, you can decry all of the evil of America and whoever else all you want - good for you. Congratulations, you have gained the moral high ground and as you sit there is all of your self-righteous glory, realize that regardless of how wonderfully smug you may feel for all of your incredible narrow-mindedness, it does not change the one fact that I keep repeating to you over and over:
Islam always was, now is and will always be a threat to Western Civilization. Western Civilization can make room for the Muslim, but Islam cannot allow room for Western Civilization.
As you sit there in all you self-righteousness, realize that one day you will have to choose to submit to Islam or fight Islam.
You can spout all of the atrocities committed by America - great - atrocity or not, Islam calls for the destruction/submission of everything and everyone.
You call them radical Muslims, I call them authentic Muslims and there are at least 350 million of them ready and willing to kill you to usher in the golden global rule of Allah.
I choose to not blind myself to this reality.
yes, America has gotten it wrong, but when we have it was not intended to destroy an entire way of life, a nation or a culture - the same cannot be said for Islam.
I have shown over and over that the foundational values and principles of Islam demand war against the west - it did in 632 AD and still does today.
All of you apologist have a myopic view of a very narrow band of history and you are the only ones who do!
[/quote]
My only aim is to point out the reality that other people see, but for some reason, you can’t. If that makes me smug or self righteous, oh well.
Sorry, but I fear the American government more than I do a bunch of goat herders. Your fear mongering is top-notch, however.
You focus on the whatever makes you happy - enjoy the ignorance.
Fear-mongering? Hardly - name one thing I have gotten wrong - as before, bring on your proof. All I have seen you do is avoid the history, blame America and call me names . . . if I am so wrong and merely fear-mongering, where’s your evidence?
