By the way, D…
I hope that this stays what it’s meant to be be…a “lively” discussion, and that’s all…
We’ve had way too much to share in terms or workouts and nutrition for this one topic to spoil all that…PEACE!
Mufasa - I can feel your frustration. There are some truly dumb motherfuckers in this great country of ours - even here in T-land. I’m white by the way and a registered republican, just born a whole lot smarter than 99% of the rest of you backwards, hillbilly, narrowminded, stupid motherfuckers.
Da Man wrote: “And all of these mags and shows are not 90-100% white because every member of company producing them is racist, it is because they appeal to the largest buying demographic in the country. It isnt like the producers of ‘Friends’ said “Lets make us an ALL WHITE show so that no dern negro will wanna watch it!” I would be willing to bet it was more like “Since the demographic research shows that shows with a predominantly white cast relates better to the largest demographic, and we are after all trying to sell as much of this as possible, we will go w/ this cast.” Not racism, just reality… But your race is the minority- statistically your race SHOULD trail the majority in every category.“
Wait, does this mean that I am doomed to watch only whites with lead roles in television and in movies simply because you consider yourself the majority? If this is what you are saying, why is it you can not see the need for an outlet of our own talent and expression? I watch shows that appeal to what I experience on a daily basis. I never watched Friends because I could not relate to their situation comedy being that it represented a different culture than what I am surrounded by in my own home. Does this mean that The Cosby Show was racist because most of the actors were black? That show appealed to my interest because it was the FIRST time that blacks were presented on television as a functional family unit with successful parents. Why did we have to wait so long (until a black man, Cosby, decided to push for the show to be created) to be represented on national television? If we had waited for the “majority” to show us in a positive light, we would still be waiting. Any positive expression of Black people in pop culture has come about because we pushed for it ourselves, not because it was offered to us. It is like you all are pissed because we find ways to represent ourselves. Question, do you honestly think that Maxim appeals to the average successful black male? If you do you have issues and you need to work that out. I have never even felt the slightest urge to buy Maxim because it does not related to me. According to you, I should just deal with it simply because you consider me the minority. I think it pisses you off simply because a predominantly white magazine has been mirrored by a predominantly black one. That makes no sense.
listen dude, i had a realy big, ment to persuade speach that i was goin’ to post just
to get back on you for the shit (unbelievably spectacular argumented) that you posted before.
what i realized was that probably NO ONE, NOT EVEN YOU would give 1/3 a shit about what i argued there, but simply place me in a for or against cathegory to garret’s point of view.So i dropped my big polished speach in order to give you this shity post: two ways to see THE PROBLEM- either garret is full of anger 'n you
full of shit, or he’s full of shit 'n you full of revolt. Frankly i believe in essence both of
your opinions differ only in rethorical value and not in argumentation essence. Garret sets me on while you are a guy great pesuasuion. My 'grats for you both 'n you especialy.
I personally don t agree with like 70% of what
you re saying but on the other hand it s extreme n dumb to say “it s time for a rent”.
The MIDDLE WAY OUT is realy the genuine way out. We re facing a crisis folks and we d better keep our heads if we ever wanna find a
solution to it all.
Peace to you Mufasa,
snowwhite.
I’m presently viewing a program intitled “Nazism in America” which begins during Depression era America as the nazi movement (although somewhat small at the time) was beginning to flow. This program (with this thread) just goes to show us that one can fall to far toward political correctness or bigotry. Now I’m not judging anyone here at all but mainly we just need to be mentally tough and always walk in moderation. Just my thoughts.
First: Affirmative action is a good idea… but it has NEVER been used correctly. It is supposed to give advantage to a minority ONLY if the candidates are completely equal. The spirit of the law is good, the implementation has been bad from the get go.
What is wrong with a police department needing to hire black women? If black women are under represented in the department then that's who they need to hire!! There are many different reasons that they would need black women specifically: rape victims, domestic violence, and children will identify with and most likely open up better to someone they can identify with. If I had just suffered a horrible trauma I would probably feel the same way. Is that racist? Perhaps, but I can tell you this, if I was under horrible pressure and trying to deal with a devistating event I'd be much more willing to talk to someone who may identify with me better. To someone in trauma looks may be all that matters, racist or not. The rape intervention group I was involved with in college matched victims with counselors of their own race when ever possible, to make every bit of what they were dealing with just a little easier.
Da Man - 'congressman' refers to a MAN and 'congresswoman' refers to a woman. It has never been anything but that, if the term was gender neutral then all Representatives would be called 'congressmen'
And to whomever said that there are few black women that are good looking enough to 'grace' the pages of Playboy and Maxim, you must be blind. I have opened National Geographic and seen women who are better looking than most of those models. You may not feel that black women are attractive, but I'm sure there are plenty of black women out there that wouldn't look at you tiwce. It's all a matter of taste.
To Michelle. Affirmative Action a good idea? Okay, if it’s true that it has never been used as was the initial intention how should it be handled in your opinion? Also are you suggesting that since such and such group is not 50-50 percentage wise then we should fire the ones who are not black women to hire them? Or am I misunderstanding your post? I, frankly, do not believe in hiring simply on the basis of “well there are not enough of such and such gender/race in this particular job so lets fire some to hire others”. At least that is how it’s being played out these days in many places. In any case I really don’t see how affirmative aciton can be a good thing. Thanks for your thoughts however.
Cloakmanor wrote: “In any case I really don’t see how affirmative aciton can be a good thing.”
It is not my place to define whether Affirmative Action is needed today in the year 2002, however, to read that someone actually believes that there was never a place or time for it makes me wonder where some of you were raised and how you could have missed the last 20-30 years in this country or at least been blind to any other point of view on it besides your own. The sites below offer some background information as far as statistics concerning the need for affirmative action when it was initiated. Honestly, I can’t see how anyone feels as if the hiring practices or wage distribution was fair or equal before it was put into place. I am guessing that none of your parents were denied jobs simply because their skin was too dark regardless of the qualifications.
http://clinton2.nara.gov/ WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/aa04.html
http://clinton2.nara.gov/ WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/aa-index.html
This is only basic information. Maybe if people actually researched or gave a damn about what others have gone through, this debate wouldn’t even need to be taking place now.
–Boston Barrister- What makes racism morally wrong is the fact that all men are men. Just because my skin tone isnt like yours doesn’t make me any less of a man. To take a line from the Constitution’-“That all men are created equal.’ That baseline EQUALITY is what racism offends.
–Prof X- Don’t drop down to the childish insult level, man. You are way to intelligent for that.
–Mufassa—the line “Do you guys honestly think that if people could legally get away with it, that this nation would not be as segregated as it was in 1955? You bet it would…” seems to be very prejudicial to me. Just the wording of it. “You bet it would?” That is an unfounded statement. I apologize if I misread the post. Could you please phrase it in a different manor? And by no means is this a personal attack from me to anyone. Although I cant say I am innocent of committing such a crime, this is not one of those cases. I don’t accuse of whining, I am just honestly curious as to how someone can seek equality through separation. Concerning the market, I was simply supporting the reasoning that most publications are predominantly white- someone else used 20% to represent the ‘non-anglo’ section of the market. Now, put yourself in the position of a man paid to make as much money as humanly possible for his company, or he will be ousted for the next youngster. Which market would you play too? I believe that you would make the same decision many have made, seeing as you are an intelligent man that knows why he is being paid ‘the big bucks.’ Does that make it ‘right?’ Each person has their own view of ‘right,’ so I cannot say if it is or not. I just dislike the term ‘need’ being used in place of ‘desire.’ I did not mean it as an insult, just a clarification. There you go again w/ the racism, though! Don’t do that, man! Money is numero uno on ‘most’ businesses minds. I doubt many of them would sacrifice their multi-million dollar business just to get a shot in on ‘blacky.’ I am sorry if your life has led you to thing that they would.
–LL—You did it too! You don’t know these ppl! You are making prejudicial statements! I cant say if you are correct or not, because I don’t know these ppl either. But the mere fact that you say something like that means that you aren’t any different than they are! Calling someone a ‘backwards, hillbilly, narrowminded, stupid motherfucker’ for a single view they hold (of which you have no information to the reasoning) is pretty harsh. And it just perpetuates the hate that is trying to be solved here……
–Prof X—I don’t ‘consider’ myself the majority. It is just that market polls show that a major chunk of the business goes to a demographic that you happen to not be part of. It isnt as if it a conspiracy, it is a money making bet. You go w/ the odds when your money is on the line. And just as the Cosby show was not racist, Friends isnt either, so stop painting that picture, man. You can represent yourself any damn way you please!!! It doesn’t bother me! I don’t know if maxim appeals to the average successful black male. And the ‘issues’ comment seems a bit spiteful, please tell me it isnt, because my intent was relaxed rhetoric, not personal attacks, prof. Except for the funny stupid crap, it really doesn’t appeal to me that much. You can usually see the girls spines through their damned stomachs, which, quite frankly, isnt that attractive IMO. I don’t ‘CONSIDER’ you ANYTHING except a fellow T-Man and poster! You are projecting your thoughts of what you believe I would think on me. Even though you have no true reason to do so. Much like racists project an image of ignorance to whichever particular race they decide to dislike. Don’t be that way, man. Honestly. I never said you should deal with anything. I was simply stating a more realistic reasoning to many companies playing to a predominantly white audience- MONEY. Cuz MONEY makes the world go ‘round. I am quite happy that you now have a magazine you can relate to for supposed ‘pop culture enjoyment.’ I hope you continue to enjoy it. Here is a prime example of what I am talking about- Me being the enemy because I am white and do not agree w/ everything you think. I agree w/ you on many things. Just not everything. I challenge you to find one single human who thinks EXACTLY as you do. I doubt you could. That is the beauty of the species- free will and individual thinking and expression. Why would a black maxim piss me off? I don’t have to buy it. I don’t even buy the normal maxim.
–michelle—I had an English prof who had a MAJOR pet peeve w/ this. She showed us quite a bit of literature about it. It is the ‘evolution of language.’ Just like gay used to mean happy, congressman now has a gender identification attached to it that was not originally there. I don’t care if they want to be called congresshuman or congresshomosapien, it is just that the entire whoha about the thing is kind of odd to me. But, I aint the woman being called a congressman, now am I? I agree that many black women are absolutely beautiful. As are many white and asian women.
—The whole thing here is that each person is saying “I hate hate!” Doesn’t seem to make much sense to me. In your hatred of these ppl hating, you are perpetuating the very thing you wish to destroy- HATE. Does that not seem strange to anyone else?
Not to worry my poor, oppressed White Brethren…
Most “race based” initiatives (damn, I’ve always hated that term…) are being systematically dismantled and supported by the higher courts. Even if they can prove that something like their admissions process takes into account a LOT of factors (Ala The University of Michigan), the challenge goes forward full bore with appeals (even if race is used as just one of many factors in admissions)…
So…to my oppressed White Brethren:
THANK YUH JESUS! We beez FREE men now!!!
Mufasa
Where have you been the last 10 years? I’ve been ill treated where I work mister because I’m white. So yes affirmative action is NOT a good thing. Not in my opinion anyway. That is being hypocritical. Saying, well lets hire him cause he’s black. They do this though so companies wont get sued. You see they are always afraid they’ll get sued for “racism”. That race card is getting seriously old really fast. IN other words, hiring by race PERIOD, black or white or green is unconstitutional.
Garratt, Dont you know it’s just the “Man” tryin to keep a white brotha’ down. We been oppressed fo’ hunneds o’ years. Time to riot and BURN OUR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS.
I don’t know guys. Mufasa, are you personally suffering? Professor X, are you? I wouldn’t think so. And if not, how can you say that you’re being held back?
And since the Professor brought up the points about TV shows, I have a couple of comments on them:
First, it may interest you to know (if you don’t already) that Flip Wilson had the number-one rated TV show in America back in 1970-71. That was a bit before Cosby. When asked about prejudice within Hollywood, he said “Number One don’t sound very prejudiced to me.”
About the Cosby show: it was a success because it was intelligent and funny. It appealed to a large group of people, of all races. By your logic, though, I guess I shouldn’t have ever watched it, because none of the principle characters were white, so I wouldn’t have been able to relate to them. Nonetheless, I enjoyed the show.
Perhaps if you watched Friends a time or two, you’d find that you liked it as well, despite the lack of a black cast. It’s a good show, black white or purple.
Finally, if anyone wants a really egregious screen example of racism, pick up the Eddie Murphy flick “Boomerang”. There are virtually no white people in it - except for four guys pulling a chariot (like horses) and a characature of a salesman. If ANY white movie showed blacks like that, HOLY CANOLLI, it’d be all over! But Murphy can get away with it because he’s black. Oh well, so much for equality… 
(BTW, I really like that movie. Seriously. I own the DVD. I haven’t let the “racist portrayal” bother me, and both Robin and Halle are HOT. But the fact remains that it’s a pretty amazing example of how far the “reverse racism” has gone.)
To Cloakmanor - Yes, I think the Affirmative Action laws were a great idea, however, since they have never been implemented correctly they should probably go. I think the idea behind them was sound, the ‘sway vote’ between two even candidates would go for the minority. Sure, that sucks for the other person, but how is ‘the first candidate is a white woman, so she’ll be better’ fair either?
The problem is, bosses are going to hire whomever they want to. If a company needs to fulfill quotas based on race and or handicap they can hire a blind black woman - that's three quotas filled with one person... and that's exactly how large corporations do it.
I’m beginning to see a side of some people, that I previously thought highly of, that I am not enthralled with.
Michelle…you’re missing the point though. If there is no affirmative action that does not automatically mean that a white person will be hired simply on that basis. However with affirmative action in place they aquire a gauranteed percentage. I do not like any system that uses this kind of flawed thinking because whether or not it is “used correctly” it is still hiring by race. Without it an employer can hire the person best fit for the job without the worry of potential sueing (and sueing over this or any issue for that matter has gotten completely out of control as well thanks to AA).I also know if I was an employer I would not want the dreadful task of HAVING to aquire a cetrain percentage of blacks simply to fill a percentage quota. I don’t know but something seems wrong with that if you ask me.
cloakmanor wrote: “Where have you been the last 10 years? I’ve been ill treated where I work mister because I’m white.”
-Gee, a whole ten years of bigoted oppression. I do feel sorry for you, brother. I can only imagine what it must be like to have to enter through the back door of the corporation every day because you are not welcome in the front door. Riding the freight elevator instead of the one in the main lobby must make you feel like you are less than all of those uppity, rich, and extremely successful black people that occupy every managing position in the business. That is what it is like, huh?
cloak manor wrote: “So yes affirmative action is NOT a good thing. Not in my opinion anyway. That is being hypocritical. Saying, well lets hire him cause he’s black. They do this though so companies wont get sued. You see they are always afraid they’ll get sued for “racism”. That race card is getting seriously old really fast. IN other words, hiring by race PERIOD, black or white or green is unconstitutional.”
-Yes, you would have a point here if America had equal hiring practices before this. It didn’t as those statistics I provided should show you. That means that some changes needed to be made because regardless of how oppressed you may “feel” you are, it pales in comparison to what an entire race of people was going through before it was initiated. The simple fact that you have a job there instead of working a janitorial position simply because of your skin color should make that crystal clear for you.
My only issue with Affirmative Action is when it turns to handouts. It only does those receiving them a disservice. The less you make someone work (welfare, foodstamps, etc.), the less they’ll be inclined to work. Think of nationalities (Koreans, Jews, etc.) who have come to this country and been quite successful. There’s no excuse for anyone of any race to not make it because of their race. I think certain cultures have bread laziness and the attitude that things can’t be changed into their children. I see this all the time, as I live in SC, from both blacks and whites. Our little backwards state is perenially 49th in education, and I think that’s because most of our students can’t see past the little microcosm that they’re raised in. They are born, go to school, might finish high school, take a job below their abilities, and start reproducing again - black or white. I guess that’s my rant.
We all speak of wanting racial equality, yet fail to realize that most of us, including myself, have been guilty of other forms of prejudice, as all of us are part of some majority. How many times have we, or those we associate with, said something like, “what a silly faggot”, or made fun of any other quite small group of our people? Just a thought.
char-dawg wrote: “I don’t know guys. Mufasa, are you personally suffering? Professor X, are you? I wouldn’t think so. And if not, how can you say that you’re being held back? “
-First off, I never said I was being held back and don’t use race as an excuse. I worked my ass off to get where I am just like everyone else in my class. You asked, however, if I am suffering. I am not sure why you chose that word but let’s put it like this, I know that I am not treated fairly when it comes to all aspects of my education. I imagine that some of the girls in the class experience something along those same lines. I know what it was like to walk through the Galleria as a young black man and not get service or treated with respect because a shop owner feels as if I obviously am not going to buy anything, or better yet, feels as if I am about to steal something. Either way, nothing I have been through even comes close to what my parents went through so I choose not to walk around complaining about it. I have more experience when it comes to research than most people ten years older than me. As such, I know what I am walking into a job with so I don’t need any excuse or hand out. What I do need is someone sitting behind that desk who will see me as a “qualified individual” instead of “a black man with qualifications”. Unfortunately, this is the way things have been and are in many corporations if allowed. You have to realize that most corporations are owned by whites, not blacks. This means that the same bigotry that has been expressed by some on this thread would also be there holding back the “minority” if allowed to simply hire as they pleased. This has been proven to be the case which is why I provided the statistics so I am not sure how you are able to dismiss that and only focus in on what you choose.
Char-dawg wrote: “And since the Professor brought up the points about TV shows, I have a couple of comments on them:
First, it may interest you to know (if you don’t already) that Flip Wilson had the number-one rated TV show in America back in 1970-71. That was a bit before Cosby. When asked about prejudice within Hollywood, he said “Number One don’t sound very prejudiced to me.” “
-That was pretty sad. If you believe that a black man in Hollywood experienced no racism in the 70’s simply because he had a hit tv show, there is little to no education going on in schools any more. Let’s see, Flip Wilson was going to put on a face like every other public black person did in order to keep the jobs they had. That was how it was done, you keep your mouth shut and you get to play the part. Why would he use that one question, which I suppose you believe to be the only time he expressed himself concerning race, as a platform for Civil Rights? Was he an activist? To tell the truth, I can’t believe I am even having this conversation because for someone to believe that race was not the issue any time a black man left his house in the 60’s and 70’s is truly unbelievable to me. Why was Webster with two white parents instead of two black ones? Different Strokes was the same way. You picked one show with black star as a hit from the 70’s as if television was just loaded with black people. Aside from Goodtimes, Sanford and Son, and The Jeffersons (based on All in the Family fame) which were all a hard sale to television networks before people proved to actually be watching them, you are saying that you believe the playing field was equal? We have come a long way and are still making progress. I truly doubt my future kids will have much to experience based on race, hopefully, if people accept the fact that, no, you may not have been around 100 years ago, but that same pain is. It is passed down in families just like the stories of rape victims. Because it is like assault when you are made to feel uncomfortable in EVERY aspect of your life simply because of how you look. It must be easy for you to look right past it considering unless you were black, your parents did not have to experience it daily. My perspective is this, I work for what want and I expect for others to do the same. I am not looking for any hand out but simply equal ground to present myself. That was not going to happen before affirmative action because if these businesses were not made to hire people of different racial back grounds, they never would have. That is the truth and the only point that matters when it comes to the justification of AA.
Char-dawg wrote: “About the Cosby show: it was a success because it was intelligent and funny. It appealed to a large group of people, of all races. By your logic, though, I guess I shouldn’t have ever watched it, because none of the principle characters were white, so I wouldn’t have been able to relate to them. Nonetheless, I enjoyed the show.
Perhaps if you watched Friends a time or two, you’d find that you liked it as well, despite the lack of a black cast. It’s a good show, black white or purple. “
-I don’t think you understood me. I didn’t avoid watching Friends because they were white. I watched Mad About You regularly when I could catch it. I found the show stupid and a waste of programming. Obviously, regarding their salaries, I was the minority in that opinion, but it doesn’t change the fact that I am looking for a little more substance in what I watch. I brought it up to reflect that just because you feel that a show is a hit or a publication, you are ignoring an entire aspect of the population that disgrees. To then get mad that there is media directed at that population is silly and retarded. I didn’t bitch when Maxim first hit the stands for it being predominantly white. Hell, it never caught my attention to begin with because MOST MAGAZINES ARE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE. Therefore, I walked right past it because nothing was jumping in appeal to my interests. The real question is, why was the man who started this thread so offset by a “black” publication? Did it say, “only for black people” on the cover?
-Finally, if anyone wants a really egregious screen example of racism, pick up the Eddie Murphy flick “Boomerang”. There are virtually no white people in it - except for four guys pulling a chariot (like horses) and a characature of a salesman. If ANY white movie showed blacks like that, HOLY CANOLLI, it’d be all over! But Murphy can get away with it because he’s black. Oh well, so much for equality…
-Gee, do you really want me to pull out every movie who has done the same to black people? It is a really long list. I loved that movie for many reasons, one being that it was a predominantly black cast which contrasted all of the predominantly white casts that you ignored for years before that.
Ok, thats it. Prof, my man, you are very bigotted, admit it or not. You think that just because a white man owns a company he is less inclined to hire a black man? Why? Because he is white? That is the exact same thing as saying someone is ignorant because the are black. THE EXACT SAME THING. How can you fault someone else for doing something that you do yourself? Seems like a bit of a double standard to me. Mufassa, what is up w/ you? You seem to be getting very hot under the collar here when ppl just make points, not trying to say you are anything or they are anything, just saying that this is what they have noticed or been through. And you and prof get on this ‘oppression is OUR thing’ rant… Come on, guys. Open your eyes. Just cuz someone is white doesnt mean they are racist. And if you think that, then you are racist, and need to do some serious reevaluation… I seem to recall a white man who had recently been pulled from his truck and beaten nearly to death by a group of black men for no apparent reason saying something along the lines of ‘Cant we all just get along?’