Oh cyco… I wish i could give you my details to get into all the journals I can. I might have a look into getting the details from a few studies and post them here.
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
[quote]Maldo wrote:
@cycobushmaster
What supplements would you take for PCT?[/quote]
besides ZMA and vitamin D (and occasionally DAA), i don’t think there are a whole lot of supplements that should be used…
[/quote]
i just want to reiterate the importance of getting enough zinc, magnesium and vitamin D…
all three of those can cause low testosterone if one is deficient. unless you’re certain you’re meeting your needs (and not just the minimum RDA for a 125 lb couch potato, either), then i’d strongly recommend taking ZMA and D while in PCT.
they’re both pretty cheap, and as long as you’re not taking crazy-high doses, side-effect free…
also, to clarify a question i have gotten several times…
the dosage recommendations i posted for the SERMs and AIs are generally the max dose.
adjust as necessary…
so, i’ve been reading a lot about clomid lately, in it’s application for TRT monotherapy. the doses in the clinical studies vary from 25 mg EOD to 50 mg/day. the one study i read where they went higher (150 mg/day) decreased sensitivity to GnRH, which is exactly what we DON’T want.
anyway, like i said before… high doses of SERMs have no scientific basis in helping recovery… and i think this is where we see people have recovery issues (due to decreased sensitivity) and side effects (due to all the excess SERMs floating around their body, acting as estrogen in the body).
^with that being said, very few of those studies used SERMs for 2-4 weeks, which is the timeline for a lot fo people’s PCT’s. honestly, most used 6-8 week timelines, and were very successful there. the only one that seems to be effective for longer (2-3 years) seems to be clomid, but again, that’s at lower doses (25 mg/day).
Can someone point out this association of Nolvadex and cancer?
[quote]KSman wrote:
Can someone point out this association of Nolvadex and cancer?[/quote]
i believe it was Nelson Montana or Nelson Vergel that brought this up… can’t remember which one.
i’ll do some digging in my links and post it.
Hi Guys, I am a total newbie here and am just about to start my first cycle
I am an endurance athlete rather than a lifter so have gone for pretty low doses but quite a long cycle. 16 weeks on 200mg EQ and 150mg sustanol
so I just want to check that I have my PCT right having read through the thread. So starting 2 or 3 weeks after I last take SUS and EQ I should start 20mg ED of Nolva for 4 weeks then 20mg EOD for 2 weeks and should I take Aromasin during my cycle?
I really appreciate any help
TDude
Triduda, Please also see:
Thanks KSMan.
So I should be running Nolva from the start of my cycle. Given the low doses of EQ and Sus I am taking should I take 10 mg ED or EOD? and do I still need an AI, again given the relatively low dosages
I am also thinking of running GW 50156 would this replace Tamoxifen?
Sorry for all the questions but the internet is a mine field of information on the subject and as a firm believer in the less is more philosophy I think these threads have the best info on them.
Tdude
[quote]Triduda wrote:
Thanks KSMan.
So I should be running Nolva from the start of my cycle. Given the low doses of EQ and Sus I am taking should I take 10 mg ED or EOD? and do I still need an AI, again given the relatively low dosages
I am also thinking of running GW 50156 would this replace Tamoxifen?
Sorry for all the questions but the internet is a mine field of information on the subject and as a firm believer in the less is more philosophy I think these threads have the best info on them.
Tdude[/quote]
read the damn thread instead of posting dumb questions…
[quote]Triduda wrote:
Thanks KSMan.
So I should be running Nolva from the start of my cycle. Given the low doses of EQ and Sus I am taking should I take 10 mg ED or EOD? and do I still need an AI, again given the relatively low dosages
I am also thinking of running GW 50156 would this replace Tamoxifen?
Sorry for all the questions but the internet is a mine field of information on the subject and as a firm believer in the less is more philosophy I think these threads have the best info on them.
Tdude[/quote]
I see a lot of “firm believer in the less is more philosophy” thinking when it comes to estrogen management. But the same guys think that more T is better. Many of the problems I see are from guys who are lazy and don’t care to learn about what they should do or why. Waiting for bloat or gyno is the wrong way to do these things. The effects of estrogen below those thresholds can play havoc with mental energy, libido and mood and limit your physical visual results and strength gains.
Here’s my 20 cents…regarding the use of HCG
Reviewing the science one can learn that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.
The latest guidelines and recommendations indicate the benefit of using HCG during the cycle (when steroids are administered) and when LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT) and other factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production (peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3))
What is the fastest possible time to come to a reduction in the secretion of LH?, one might ask
My research came to the data that LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (looks terrible when you’re just writing about it)
The leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume so visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function.
Some old studies described cases where really large amounts of HCG (dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks) were administrated during post cycle (actually after a very long cycles) in patients with previously established decreased testosterone secretion capacity/ testicular sensitivity caused by steroid use. Case studies showed that were unable to return full testicular size.
However, one must take into account the fact that at that time were not known AIs, nor the application ant the effects of SERMs was quite understandable.
I suppose it is not desirable to be too comprehensive, so in continue I’ll set out the most important guidelines:
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100iu HCG administered everyday is enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (Based on studies with normal men using steroids)
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It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use.
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The athlete must discontinue the hCG before he starts Post-Cycle-Therapy so his leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to his body’s own LH production.
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An optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. (To remeber - half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours.)
Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for pct.
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For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 days starting 14 days after your first AAS dose.
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At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot.
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Minor atrophy is quickly reversed with proper Post Cycle Therapy.
For better and more detailed understanding of this matter I can recommend studies of Dr. Crisler . An exact link to the HCG paper is below:
Best regards
1 Like
Not good enough. Please see :The PCT SERM dosing in this forum is wrong - Pharma - Forums - T Nation
250iu hCG SC EOD is a LH replacement dose.
There are several things Crisler has stated that are flawed. He should not be quoted as an authority. The paper is also stale and does not reflect a clinical study that was published May 2005. I pointed that out to him in 2006.
He also stated that T could not be injected via an insulin syringe because its too thick, and also states that the fine jet would also cut tissues. [can’t make up his mind] He makes up shit and never tried it. Meanwhile, many now inject T with insulin syringes, including his guys who now know better. He writes with authority but I don’t trust anything he has written. Docs listen to him because he is a doc and that goes to his head.
Yes, I agree completely.
I had a link to the text of Crisler at my hand so I put it because I thought it was quite understandable written. But who would here had the will and desire to read scientific studies of, for example, Andrea D. Coviello, Mendis-Handagama, Keeney DS, Katrine Bay, Dev Kumar Menon, Schulte-Beerbuhl M Catt KJ, Nanjing and other?
As it is well known in these scientific studies a major problem as the subjects are usually people already diagnosed with endocrine diseases (which are not aftereffects of using AS) or simply the number of subjects was not large enough to perform the ultimate and certain scientific conclusions?
I think that the problem is to design a study with at least 500 healthy male subjects with approximately the same age, same previous experience in power-lifting sports, equal health habits and the same diet and nearly all other relevant harmonized variables (alcohol intake throughout the week, the manner and intensity of training, sex life, the percentage of lean muscle mass and the like.)
Do you agree?
As long as I’ve been looking for answers, I’m not sure at all what would be really the best and most productive method of administration HCG during a cycle for individuals-athletes in order to maintain the proper testicles function?
In a cycle of 12 weeks from the start of the fourth week until the end of the tenth week in an amount of 500 IU / week usage (2 x 250 IU) or 275 IU 3x / week)?
You already gave the answer “250 and hCG SC EOD is a LH replacement dose” … and thank you sincerely.
What’s your opinion when would be the best time to start implementing HCG during a cycle?
Thanks again and cordial compliments
Vardas
In the 2005 clinical study, younger males were given 200mg T per week to obtain HPTA shutdown. LH/FSH were seen to be greatly reduced on second day after first T injection. So hCG could be started on day two of a cycle. Same for SERM.
Then used fine needle aspiration to sample intratesticular testosterone [ITT] [ouch!] before this to get a base line ITT level. Then they did 125iu, 250iu, 500iu hCG SC EOD on different groups. ITT had fallen rapidly with the T injections. 250iu hCG SC EOD roughly restored ITT to baseline levels. The conclusion was that that dose was a reasonable LH replacement dose. Because of the needles into the testes, the study was not long term.
In a TRT context, we are looking to keep the testes healthy. Older men don’t want to have tiny testes pulled up tight to their bodies and many wives don’t like that sexual image either. And it prevents the 24x7 dull ache that many get with LH=zero. While hCG can make some T, in older TRT men the amount is small. For younger guys we are also looking to preserver fertility. For that hCG gets the job done but can be imperfect. For guys doing gear and cycling with PCT, the objectives are much the same, but the outcomes are much more critical. For guys doing blast and cruise, the objectives are the same at TRT and HPTA resumption is not goal. I think that some do blast and cruise because PCT was not longer working well. Then we get some TRT guys who realize that they can blast on top of their TRT. Probably not a good idea because of the let-down after the blast. They also have to dance around the routine lab work and their doctors scrutiny.
Ksman, what is your opinion on Torem? From the bit I’ve read about it seems to be just as much if not more effective than clomid for kick starting Lh and Fsh production post cycle. Without clomids harsh sides? Anyone have experience using Torem?
[quote]KSman wrote:
Then used fine needle aspiration to sample intratesticular testosterone [ITT] [ouch!] [/quote]
Yes, I remember…
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2004-0802
…maybe the only one study with testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men…
looks terrible when you are just reading about it
Ok, that study find that LH and FSH were suppressed on second day, so accordingly that, it can be concluded that hCG might start from the beginning.
…Maybe it’s the safest way … and maybe slow path to desensitization (if cycle lasts 12 weeks or longer?)…who knows?..,not me.
The above study lasted only three weeks, must be taken into account.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Same for SERM. [/quote]
So your recommendation is that SERM (Nolvadex) must be used 20 mg of ED throughout the cycle until the end of the PCT?
Sorry, I do not want to be boring … just really interested in your opinion
Cheerful greetings
[quote]laxtreme56 wrote:
Ksman, what is your opinion on Torem? From the bit I’ve read about it seems to be just as much if not more effective than clomid for kick starting Lh and Fsh production post cycle. Without clomids harsh sides? Anyone have experience using Torem?[/quote]
i don’t think Tore is as good as tamoxifen or clomiphene for raising LH or testosterone…
however, it seems to have less side effects and might be even more effective in raising HDL, among other things. i believe i posted a study that compared nolva, tore and ralox in the beginning of this thread…
[quote]Vardas wrote:
[quote]KSman wrote:
Same for SERM. [/quote]
So your recommendation is that SERM (Nolvadex) must be used 20 mg of ED throughout the cycle until the end of the PCT?
Sorry, I do not want to be boring … just really interested in your opinion
Cheerful greetings[/quote]
Exactly. If you do not allow the testes to shutdown and shrink, then you do not need to recover form and function during PCT. At that point you transition the testes back to your own natural LH. So PCT then is about tapering off of the SERM and the testes have LH all of the time. You do not want your LH levels dropping * during the transition because that is the wring signal and you use a little anastrozole to ensure that estrogen rebound does not crash the party.
- by using low doses of SERM, LH will not be excessive and LH level disruption during PCT is reduced. 20mg EOD may be more than enough!
Idealy, one would test LH/FSH during the cycle and might know baseline levels too. But very few will do that.