Thoughts on GOP Debate

1–I’ve been noticing something strange between Romney and Guiliani. Have you noticed that when Romney says something got done it was because “we” did it, while Guiliani always says that it is something “I” did? A good rule of thumb for a leader is to NOT take credit for everything. Granted, I was only a squad leader and not a mayor, but when my squad did well, I ALWAYS gave credit to my men, and I ALWAYS took all of the blame when bad stuff happened. That is how you build a team that trusts you and knows you care about them. Guys that take credit for everything end up with disloyal troops with low morale. Not that I am voting for Mitt, but he scored some cool points with me.

2–I’m still a Ron Paul guy, but it’s really becoming only by default. He needs to stop tying everything into foreign policy. The war in Iraq is not the end all be all of America’s woes. Secondly, he keeps saying that our founders were non-interventionalists. THAT IS BULLSHIT. Anyone that claims so has no grasp on that era of our history.

3–Thompson is not a good speaker…but I don’t care. I’m not looking for a quick tongue. I’m looking for a guy with his head on straight and he’ll get my vote when Paul loses the primary. Thompson is the only other guy who talks about freedom. He also made mention of Goldwater’s Conscience of a Conservative. That is what made me a conservative. I challenge each American to at least give it a cursory read. It’s ~120 pages of gold. That has essentially been my political bible. Hell, here it is online: http://www.questia.com/library/book/the-conscience-of-a-conservative-by-barry-m-goldwater.jsp

Thompson did well enough to almost steal my vote for Paul.

mike

My thought on the debate is that Ron Paul panders/caters to the audience he’s speaking to, just the same as the rest of them.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, in-and-of-itself. It’s just a neutral observation.

As far as his rhetoric about the founders goes, here’s what’s really at play:

He knows that all of the founders weren’t non-interventionists, but the American public at large does not. The man simply cannot be expected to deliver a comprehensive history lesson to the masses in 30-second intervals. That’s why certain ideological/rhetorical compromises are made in his television performances. If you’re familiar with the guy’s record, you know that he knows what he’s talking about.

Honestly, you can’t judge any of them by what you see on TV. It’s not that easy. I’m a paleo-conservative, but I can’t denounce Guliani, because I really don’t know the guy. I can only disagree with his views on a philosophical basis. I’m going to come right out and say that politicians in the public spotlight get way more flak than they deserve. The general public is populated with imbeciles and it has no legitimate right to lambast anyone who delivers a speech on a podium.

I no longer believe that Thompson is going to get anywhere near the nomination. “Grandpa conservative” has turned into just plain senile gramps. The fact that evangelicals don’t particularly like him is his death knell.

Giuliani has impressed me from what I’ve seen since the summer. Huckabee, too - he’s a real contender.

So far, I like Thompson the best, but I do not believe he will get the nod, because he has been a horrible speaker.

Romney, on the other hand, is an excellent speaker and always seems to say the right thing. Spending in Massachusetts and their Health-Care policy really concern me though. Does health care in Massachusetts not remind you of Hillary’s plan?

Despite this, I think he is going to win, which would be ok with me. I think he stands the best chance against Hillary. Plus, I can’t stand Guliani, and I’m not too fond of McCain either.

Alan Keyes, anyone?

Hopefully he gets included in the next debate.

Thompson looks too old and worn out for the job. Romney looks and sounds capable, as does Guliani. Ron Paul says some good stuff but the America he longs for is historically dead (we are a global power now, no turning back).

I’d probably go with Guliani, since he can keep NY out of Hillary’s hands.

Hillary, btw, will win if she gets NY. She’ll get Cali for sure, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and probably Florida. Hell, she’s 2/3 of the way home NOW!

I appreciate everyone’s viewpoint.

However, with the exception of HH, I wonder what planet you are on.

Rudy was the clear winner and easily the most Presidential.

JeffR

Did anyone else notice that the candidates are starting to adopt Paul’s speech as their own?

Giuliani – actually came across likable but I just can’t accept his idea of America as the world’s protector.

Romney – I can’t stand listening to this guy talk at all. I just can’t get past his constant Cheshire grin. He talks in circles.

Thompson – boring! This dude cannot bring the heat at all. He may understand conservatism but he is in conflict with that by being a member of CFR.

McCain – getting older by the minute. Every time I listen to him I cannot get that scene from “Apocalypse Now” out of my head where Martin Sheen is locked in the cage at the end. Question: do we really want a former POW running our country? I’m sure he is a great man but that thought has been troubling me recently.

Paul – he still amazes me in that he can stay on message – even while being booed. Foreign policy is everything in this race. It is the underlying reason for most of our economic problems and a contributing factor to why we are hated. He understands this from a fundamental perspective and he is not given enough credit for it. Really though, Paul is not a candidate whose philosophy can be captured in a 15 second sound-bite. This man is an economic and political scholar who needs to be listened to more seriously.

Huckabee – how can one man talk so much and say so little?

Hunter – scary!

Tancredo – the only man other than Paul that seems to understand and speak to the principles of liberty. Too bad he is a one issue candidate.

Hey, I am biased, so I am giving the win to Paul. Clouded judgment? Maybe.

I don’t trust anybody except Ron Paul. Bottom line is, most of these guys were blowing war horns and playing bipartisan reindeer games during the start of the Iraq war, and Ron Paul actually voted against it. Rudy still comes off as an arrogant liar, McCain is just another George Bush (with TERRIBLE foreign policy ideas), and Romney is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

If you want a bit more substance than the debate, each candidate’s foreign policy team is writing an article for Foreign Affairs:

They’re not all finished yet, but a lot of the main candidates are up.

I didn’t watch the debate myself - I actually haven’t watched any yet, as it’s too early for me to pay close attention - but here are a couple interesting summaries:

http://www.pajamasmedia.com/2007/10/_liveblogging_the_republican_d.php

And a round-up of blog-o-sphere debate reactions, organized by candidate:

http://blogometer.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/10/1022_good_enoug.html

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Paul – he still amazes me in that he can stay on message – even while being booed. Foreign policy is everything in this race. It is the underlying reason for most of our economic problems and a contributing factor to why we are hated. He understands this from a fundamental perspective and he is not given enough credit for it. Really though, Paul is not a candidate whose philosophy can be captured in a 15 second sound-bite. This man is an economic and political scholar who needs to be listened to more seriously.
[/quote]

Social security, medicare, welfare? Those are the reasons for our economic problems, along with the morons handing out loans and the even bigger morons that take loans knowing they can’t afford them.

I’m all for less government and I really like Paul’s view on the economy and social security, but when it comes down to it, he is way too libertarian. End prohibition of all drugs? No thanks. Who needs the FBI? Not Ron Paul!

[quote]tedro wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Paul – he still amazes me in that he can stay on message – even while being booed. Foreign policy is everything in this race. It is the underlying reason for most of our economic problems and a contributing factor to why we are hated. He understands this from a fundamental perspective and he is not given enough credit for it. Really though, Paul is not a candidate whose philosophy can be captured in a 15 second sound-bite. This man is an economic and political scholar who needs to be listened to more seriously.

Social security, medicare, welfare? Those are the reasons for our economic problems, along with the morons handing out loans and the even bigger morons that take loans knowing they can’t afford them.

I’m all for less government and I really like Paul’s view on the economy and social security, but when it comes down to it, he is way too libertarian. End prohibition of all drugs? No thanks. Who needs the FBI? Not Ron Paul!
[/quote]

Prohibition doesn’t work, it is a huge waste of money and law enforcements time. Drug violence comes from the black market and the high prices( you don’t see people getting killed and robbed for tobacco or alcohol)

The fastest growing addiction is prescription drugs from your friendly neighborhood big pharma companies. I have a friend addicted to Vicodin and other pain meds and he is more f’ed up than any meth or crackhead I have ever seen.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Paul – he still amazes me in that he can stay on message – even while being booed. Foreign policy is everything in this race. It is the underlying reason for most of our economic problems and a contributing factor to why we are hated. He understands this from a fundamental perspective and he is not given enough credit for it. Really though, Paul is not a candidate whose philosophy can be captured in a 15 second sound-bite. This man is an economic and political scholar who needs to be listened to more seriously.
[/quote]

I’ve been pro-Paul for a few years now, but I’ve got to be wondering which debate you watched. He comes across as a whiny old man. He made almost no sense when he was talking about health care last night. Then he started talking about how we SHOULD take care of the poor and we could do it if it were not for our foreign policy. He babbled his way into saying that it MIGHT be okay to gov’t to run health care if we could afford it. I trust that is because he doesn’t argue well, for that position will lose him for me permanently.

Then he continues to espouse this fallacious idea that our founders were non-interventionist. That is flat out not true. He is starting to sound like a broken record to me. I have been staying with him in spite of his being anti-Iraq, but he’s talking as if anti-war is his platform, not pro-liberty.

What I do want to learn about though is his economic stance. I am somewhat ignorant of what he’s talking about there, though it sounds like he may be onto something.

mike

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I appreciate everyone’s viewpoint.

However, with the exception of HH, I wonder what planet you are on.

Rudy was the clear winner and easily the most Presidential.

JeffR[/quote]

Most presidential? Dude talks with a lisp. He could be our first fop president. Rudy is certainly improving his image but to consider anyone a clear winner in any of these debates is colored thinking.

But seriously, does his talk of singlehandedly fixing everything not bug you? “I fixed this, and I stopped that.”

mike

I hope Ron Paul wins. He’s completely right about foreign policy issues, and right about what the Republican party used to be about: smaller government, less spending, non-interventionist. Now it’s all corporate and both sides spend big, they only differ on what they spend it on.

The thing is, there are a lot of people out there that like the ideas Paul talks about, and when they hear him speak they remember what “Republican” used to mean. That’s how my parents voted, and that’s what I defined myself as when I was younger.

And with regard to his comments on the founding fathers being non-interventionist, I believe what he is referring to is the fact that only Congress can declare war, and that they had good reason not to vest that power in one man who could go off and start wars willy-nilly.

In any event, I think if every american were forced to listen to a 15 minute speach by each candidate instead of 30 second sound-bites, Paul would win. It’s just that Faux News rigs the debates by asking Paul questions meant to marginalize him from the “major” candidates like “You want the troops home, and so does Hillary Clinton, how are you guys any different?”.

And if you noticed on his info/stats they listed his education, and then “background info” only said he was a congressman, and libertarian–no mention of his military service or background as doctor.

I also think his public speaking skills aren’t as good as they could be, because he often gets bogged down in the kind of fiscal analysis that only a person who studies the stuff can understand, which doesn’t play well to the general populace. However, that kind of understanding would serve him well as president.

An interesting tidbit that I think is pretty telling: Paul has received more money from the troops than all other candidates combined. Should give you an idea what they think of the war.

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I appreciate everyone’s viewpoint.

However, with the exception of HH, I wonder what planet you are on.

Rudy was the clear winner and easily the most Presidential.

JeffR

Most presidential? Dude talks with a lisp. He could be our first fop president. Rudy is certainly improving his image but to consider anyone a clear winner in any of these debates is colored thinking.

But seriously, does his talk of singlehandedly fixing everything not bug you? “I fixed this, and I stopped that.”

mike [/quote]

Excellent question. I understand that concern. However, I have this sneaking suspicion that Republicans are looking for someone to step up and confront the clinton cabal.

Would I have given credit to others as a sign of humility? Maybe.

However, you have to give Rudy credit for nearly single-handedly changing New York for the better.

I can see both sides of that argument.

JeffR

[quote]ryanjm wrote:
I hope Ron Paul wins. He’s completely right about foreign policy issues, and right about what the Republican party used to be about: smaller government, less spending, non-interventionist. Now it’s all corporate and both sides spend big, they only differ on what they spend it on.

The thing is, there are a lot of people out there that like the ideas Paul talks about, and when they hear him speak they remember what “Republican” used to mean. That’s how my parents voted, and that’s what I defined myself as when I was younger.

And with regard to his comments on the founding fathers being non-interventionist, I believe what he is referring to is the fact that only Congress can declare war, and that they had good reason not to vest that power in one man who could go off and start wars willy-nilly.

In any event, I think if every american were forced to listen to a 15 minute speach by each candidate instead of 30 second sound-bites, Paul would win. It’s just that Faux News rigs the debates by asking Paul questions meant to marginalize him from the “major” candidates like “You want the troops home, and so does Hillary Clinton, how are you guys any different?”.

And if you noticed on his info/stats they listed his education, and then “background info” only said he was a congressman, and libertarian–no mention of his military service or background as doctor.

I also think his public speaking skills aren’t as good as they could be, because he often gets bogged down in the kind of fiscal analysis that only a person who studies the stuff can understand, which doesn’t play well to the general populace. However, that kind of understanding would serve him well as president.

An interesting tidbit that I think is pretty telling: Paul has received more money from the troops than all other candidates combined. Should give you an idea what they think of the war.[/quote]

ryan,

paul is a nutjob who doesn’t function within the basic confines of a democracy. He’s a ross perot type demagogue. He basically whips the Rage Against the Machiners into a froth.

However, no one can honestly suppose that this guy is capable or willing to forge compromise on an issue.

Therefore, he is not fit to govern in a democracy.

Imagine, for the sake of argument, that ron paul is correct on every single issue. He has to work within the confines of our existing government in order to effect change.

For instance, scuttling an entrenched bureaucracy like the IRS requires the ability to forge compromises and attract allies.

ron paul is an outcast within his own party. Unless you advocate ARMED fanatics FORCING paul’s will, he would be completely ineffectual.

Look to history for examples of successful Presidents. For example, Andrew Jackson took out Nicholas Biddle and the U.S. Bank through sheer force of personality. People were inspired by his leadership. The Force of his words and actions took down what was a rather popular institution at the time. His tremendous personal gravity and political popularity carried the day and his party.

Contrast that to the “I feel sorry for you looks” shown by most Republicans whenever ron paul opens his mouth. Further, any lip service given to ron paul by the partisan dems must be viewed through the prism of their self-interest. They know he couldn’t carry any state or region. He’d be simple for hillary to steamroll.

In short, he brings nothing to the table except simple solutions to complex problems. It sounds nice to the “My Dad didn’t pay enough attention to my juvenile rants” crowd. But to most responsible adults, it comes across as naive and quite preachy.

JeffR

Well I just have to disagree with you then. You and I see two completely different candidates. I know it’s difficult to get an idea of a candidate’s views in the 30 second soundbites of the primary debates, but he has said that making major changes doesn’t happen overnight, and it would be a long process. It doesn’t even mean that everything he talks about will happen.

For instance, if he wants to get rid of the IRS and income tax (which, pre-1916[approx]) didn’t exist and was only instituted to fund WWI, then we just “forgot” to get rid of it), he may not be able to completely eradicate it, but he could perhaps reduce the need for it through less spending.

And the President has direct influence on a number of issues, including foreign policy. He doesn’t have to work with Congress on many other related matters. And, as you just said, many democrats support some of his other policy stances, and Democrats have the majority in Congress (due to americans being fed up with republicans and the war), so he would actually have a better chance of working with Congress than the Neo-Cons he’s up against.

Again, I guess I see a different vision of America and what this country needs, but I have to say that the majority of the people I know “with it” enough to use the internet believe Paul is the best Republican candidate, and this message board and many others actually re-inforces that.

[quote]ryanjm wrote:
I hope Ron Paul wins. He’s completely right about foreign policy issues, and right about what the Republican party used to be about: smaller government, less spending, non-interventionist. Now it’s all corporate and both sides spend big, they only differ on what they spend it on. [/quote]

Non-interventionist, like Reagan and Goldwater? Those guys rock my socks, but they weren’t isolationist.[quote]

In any event, I think if every american were forced to listen to a 15 minute speach by each candidate instead of 30 second sound-bites, Paul would win. It’s just that Faux News rigs the debates by asking Paul questions meant to marginalize him from the “major” candidates like “You want the troops home, and so does Hillary Clinton, how are you guys any different?”.[/quote]

This is absolutely happening. Unfortunately though, Paul isn’t smart enough to shut up about foreign policy (even when that isn’t the question) when he knows that is why most Republicans find him objectionable.[quote]

An interesting tidbit that I think is pretty telling: Paul has received more money from the troops than all other candidates combined. Should give you an idea what they think of the war.[/quote]

I think that stat tells you only what you want to hear. I’m a veteran and I have given money to the Paul campaign. I’m more pro-war than any person on this board. I gave money not because of his war stance, but because when I joined the military I swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. So far as I am concerned, most of the candidates are nothing short of domestic enemies. Ron Paul, right or wrong on singular issues, demonstrates the most willingness to support and defend the Constitution out of all the candidates. I trust that a good portion of his money comes from vets with the same concerns I have.

mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Ron Paul, right or wrong on singular issues, demonstrates the most willingness to support and defend the Constitution out of all the candidates.
[/quote]
Bingo! All other politicians pay lip service to the constitution. If it is a good enough document to to raise our right hand and take an oath to defend (and possibly die defending) then it should be good enough for our leaders to defend.

Those fuckers who wanted to go to war talk about “supporting the troops” but they walk all over the troops when they disrespect a document these troops are supposedly “dying to defend”.

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:
tedro wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Paul – he still amazes me in that he can stay on message – even while being booed. Foreign policy is everything in this race. It is the underlying reason for most of our economic problems and a contributing factor to why we are hated. He understands this from a fundamental perspective and he is not given enough credit for it. Really though, Paul is not a candidate whose philosophy can be captured in a 15 second sound-bite. This man is an economic and political scholar who needs to be listened to more seriously.

Social security, medicare, welfare? Those are the reasons for our economic problems, along with the morons handing out loans and the even bigger morons that take loans knowing they can’t afford them.

I’m all for less government and I really like Paul’s view on the economy and social security, but when it comes down to it, he is way too libertarian. End prohibition of all drugs? No thanks. Who needs the FBI? Not Ron Paul!

Prohibition doesn’t work, it is a huge waste of money and law enforcements time. Drug violence comes from the black market and the high prices( you don’t see people getting killed and robbed for tobacco or alcohol)

The fastest growing addiction is prescription drugs from your friendly neighborhood big pharma companies. I have a friend addicted to Vicodin and other pain meds and he is more f’ed up than any meth or crackhead I have ever seen.

[/quote]

And you think this is a good thing? Since you are for legalizing all hyper-addictive drugs it appears you support this.

[quote]ryanjm wrote:

An interesting tidbit that I think is pretty telling: Paul has received more money from the troops than all other candidates combined. Should give you an idea what they think of the war.[/quote]

It is a trivial amount. The troops have not started to give money yet much the same as most of America has not started to pay attention yet. Paul has a very small but highly motivated support group. I suspect it is just as small in the military as it is outside the military.