This is why we can’t have nice things.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Sorry Big, but I don’t buy it. Not for violent crimes, at least.
I doubt anyone cares whether you “buy it”. 9 times out of 10, the guy wearing 300 bucks worth of Sean Jean and Air Jordans is NOT the guy you need to be worried about. You should be worried about the guy who can’t afford that shit and wants what you have as a result.
The way some of you talk, I am doubting you have ever even walked through what some consider a “bad neighborhood”. That must be why you have such a skewed view on reality and clutch your wallet anytime you see a guy wearing clothes that frighten you.
[/quote]
Actually, I’ve lived in the “bad neighborhoods.” Most of my life, in fact. We all aren’t born into “white privilege.” In fact, some of us were dirt poor. Even today I’m not pulling the kind of money an Oral Surgeon could expect. Not even close, actually. So, while you may think you’ve had it rougher than myself, I’d gladly wager you haven’t.
And, “frightened” is too strong of a word, by the way. I’m more alert. My reaction is to keep him in my peripheral. And, if the person seems to be headed straight for me, I’ll make direct eye contact and say, “hello, how are you doing?” Then I’ll see what happens next. It’s not as if I’m pulling a gun and screaming for a cop. My instincts are built from real world experiences. And though I’m one of those collectively guilty, white americans you fear, my life experiences might just count for something.
Edit: Oh. And, why would I clutch my wallet? I prefer to keep my hands at the ready.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
I am not singling you out, Big Boss - I just think the issue is a bit overstated generally.
*EDIT: typo[/quote]
No problem…I agree…its overstated.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Here are some random thoughts I put together, feel free to ignore. I ramble.
And this is why Plato said that cities should be homogeneous, and why Hobbes after him ascribed the greatest evil to factions. And all of this seems to me to ask, how may we eliminate, rather than increase, our differences? Because the intangibles are attached to all those sorts of ways in which we differ, and the minimization of those differences seems to indicate a minimization of the intangible benefits.
I’ve never seen one of your posts that should be ignored.
The dynamic of society should revolve around our differences. Trying to eliminate them results in totalitarianism. An ideal society (unlike the Republic) should try to find a fine balance between differences, to keep the society growing w/o letting it become so divisive as to cause chaos.
It may well be that the Chinese have solved this problem, in light of human differences: a totalitarian government with overwhelming force (to maintain order) but that allows a capitalist economy to underpin the society. This is the direction the United States is heading and will have eventually, IMHO.
Very interesting that you think differences should be accepted in society while also claiming that those with a different style of clothing than your own deserve to be considered criminals.
If I had a swastika tattoed on my forearm, I should not be surprised if others react accordingly. In the same way, if someone dresses in a manner that I would consider associated with violence or crime, they should expect me to react accordingly. If I am supposed to be understanding of their culture, then I have every right to expect them to understand mine.
I swear failed logic is a disease here. Can’t believe you’re so simple minded. I’ve booked-in plenty of people…and there is no “standard dress” for a criminal. That same logic has made victims of plenty and led to statements like “He didn’t look like he had a gun.” Can’t believe you’re so simple minded.
Sorry Big, but I don’t buy it. Not for violent crimes, at least.[/quote]
Its ok,I wasn’t selling…I’ve seen for myself…and I stand by the fact that there is no standard dress for a criminal. What does a child molester wear?? What does a serial rapist wear?? Better yet…to stay somewhat on topic,what does a racist wear??
[quote]Sloth wrote:
And, “frightened” is too strong of a word, by the way. I’m more alert. My reaction is to keep him in my peripheral. And, if the person seems to be headed straight for me, I’ll make direct eye contact and say, “hello, how are you doing?” Then I’ll see what happens next. It’s not as if I’m pulling a gun and screaming for a cop. My instincts are built from real world experiences. And though I’m one of those collectively guilty, white americans you fear, my life experiences might just count for something.
[/quote]
No, most of us would still call that “frightened”.
You can come up with as many names for it as you wish, but it won’t change much. Unless someone is threatening you, your own level of alert based on appearance is nothing but fear of what you think MAY happen.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
"…Evil doesn’t have a dress code. When will some people figure this out?
[/quote]
Why haven’t people figured this out? It only takes a blink of an eye for someone to become a “criminal.”
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I swear failed logic is a disease here. Can’t believe you’re so simple minded. I’ve booked-in plenty of people…and there is no “standard dress” for a criminal. That same logic has made victims of plenty and led to statements like “He didn’t look like he had a gun.” Can’t believe you’re so simple minded.[/quote]
You never get a second chance to make a first impression.
See? Nice and simple. Common sense usually is.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Professor X wrote:
"…Evil doesn’t have a dress code. When will some people figure this out?
Why haven’t people figured this out? It only takes a blink of an eye for someone to become a “criminal.” [/quote]
Well, it IS nice if the person announces (with clothing, tats, etc) their violent or sick nature before they actually perpetrate something. I guess the more intelligent criminals WOULD dress in Armani suits and make eloquent speeches before thousands of swooning idiots.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If you were in America, you could be rightly sued as the emphasis is not on “people with nose rings” but on putting an end to minorities being discriminated against when it comes to available housing.
If a white guy with a typical white name calls and hears an apartment is available but when some guy named Julio Rodriguez calls he gets told nothing is available, it is against the law.[/quote]
Only if you were taking HUD money. I can rent my house to whom ever I please. I can say a flat “no”, or I can make up some bullshit lie, to those I refuse to take money from.
I have done it before. Not based on the surname, but based on their job and my risk.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Professor X wrote:
"…Evil doesn’t have a dress code. When will some people figure this out?
Why haven’t people figured this out? It only takes a blink of an eye for someone to become a “criminal.”
Well, it IS nice if the person announces (with clothing, tats, etc) their violent or sick nature before they actually perpetrate something. I guess the more intelligent criminals WOULD dress in Armani suits and make eloquent speeches before thousands of swooning idiots.
[/quote]
Just curious HH, are you implying that someone with visible tattoo’s makes you think “criminal”?
[quote]Headhypocrite wrote:
You never get a second chance to make a first impression.
See? Nice and simple. Common sense usually is.
[/quote]
Then practice what you preach…cause it doesn’t look good for you.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Better yet…to stay somewhat on topic,what does a racist wear??[/quote]
Usually some sort of robes.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Professor X wrote:
"…Evil doesn’t have a dress code. When will some people figure this out?
Why haven’t people figured this out? It only takes a blink of an eye for someone to become a “criminal.”
Well, it IS nice if the person announces (with clothing, tats, etc) their violent or sick nature before they actually perpetrate something. I guess the more intelligent criminals WOULD dress in Armani suits and make eloquent speeches before thousands of swooning idiots.
Just curious HH, are you implying that someone with visible tattoo’s makes you think “criminal”?
[/quote]
I am curious to see what answer is in store for you.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Professor X wrote:
"…Evil doesn’t have a dress code. When will some people figure this out?
Why haven’t people figured this out? It only takes a blink of an eye for someone to become a “criminal.”
Well, it IS nice if the person announces (with clothing, tats, etc) their violent or sick nature before they actually perpetrate something. I guess the more intelligent criminals WOULD dress in Armani suits and make eloquent speeches before thousands of swooning idiots.
Just curious HH, are you implying that someone with visible tattoo’s makes you think “criminal”?
I am curious to see what answer is in store for you.[/quote]
I am sure that answer depends on what color the canvas is for that tattoo.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Professor X wrote:
"…Evil doesn’t have a dress code. When will some people figure this out?
Why haven’t people figured this out? It only takes a blink of an eye for someone to become a “criminal.”
Well, it IS nice if the person announces (with clothing, tats, etc) their violent or sick nature before they actually perpetrate something. I guess the more intelligent criminals WOULD dress in Armani suits and make eloquent speeches before thousands of swooning idiots.
Just curious HH, are you implying that someone with visible tattoo’s makes you think “criminal”?
I am curious to see what answer is in store for you.
I am sure that answer depends on what color the canvas is for that tattoo.
[/quote]
Especially when according to Jason “Driving Miss Daisy” Whitlock,all tattoos come from prison gangs.
Just thought I would add something to the conversation here.
A nice benefit from training in the martial arts and spending alot of years sparring hard, is that you can learn to read people and get a feel for their intentions. I’ve been in the ring and have had some damn hard exchanges with people of all colors, and I’m definitely way more comfortable in getting a feel for someone because of it.
You can’t judge a book by it’s cover, and anybody is capable of anything. Dirtbags come in all shapes, colors, and sizes. And none of them dress “typical”.
Bigflamer’s .02
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Just thought I would add something to the conversation here.
A nice benefit from training in the martial arts and spending alot of years sparring hard, is that you can learn to read people and get a feel for their intentions. I’ve been in the ring and have had some damn hard exchanges with people of all colors, and I’m definitely way more comfortable in getting a feel for someone because of it.
You can’t judge a book by it’s cover, and anybody is capable of anything. Dirtbags come in all shapes, colors, and sizes. And none of them dress “typical”.
Bigflamer’s .02[/quote]
I AGREE…add experience working in prisons and booking in “everyday” people for a wide range of violent crimes.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Better yet…to stay somewhat on topic,what does a racist wear??
Usually some sort of robes.[/quote]
And smells like a combination of Brut and Budweiser??
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Better yet…to stay somewhat on topic,what does a racist wear??
Usually some sort of robes.
And smells like a combination of Brut and Budweiser??[/quote]
That literally made me LOL.
Man oh man
Talk about concept drift…
This thread started off pretty well then did what most threads did – got bogged down in one little corner or the issue.
While judging people solely on their looks (race, gender, dress-code, choice of pocket protector) is common, how does this relate to collective guilt as a legal/moral issue?
I suspect that we will never really get closure on a lot of outstanding social issues until we deal with this issue. Since I admit that I really never thought about it much until very recently, I posted to try and get some good thinking on the issue. Got some of that, could use more.
I think that the Shelby Steele article cited is a great start and curiously ties in with what we have seen played out repeatedly, most recently in the so-called Jena 6 incident (which was mostly a career move for various leaders in the Black community and gave a lot of whites the chance to make pious statements about their purity too).
My concern is two-fold with this issue. I think that collective judgements (pro or con some group) have great emotional pull but that they probably will have very much the opposite effect on the groups than intended as a practical matter. In other words, identifying some group (not necessarily racial, I stress) that has some grievance is a necessary step in redressing the wrongs, but then it becomes its own different form of discrimination by straight-jacketing that group. This is because the fundamental issue of not judging people as members of some group is turned on its head – We are told that the correct and moral thing to do in this case is see them exclusively as members of an oppressed group. So all the mechanisms for bigotry remain in place and are proffered as the solution.
And as always, I might just be full of shit…
– jj