This is What's Wrong With Abortion

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
321

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Good point DD ; ) To Ephrem as well, why choose even ONE evil? Lets look at the history of using embryo’s for stem cell therapy. Embryonic Stem Cell Therapy has NOT helped even a single soul today!! The number of successful cases using adult stem cells is well into the thousands. Why even argue when the numbers are so drastically stacked against esct? Why challenge something that people argue with morals? Doesn’t make any sense to me.

What ‘characteristic’ is that defines the ability to kill the embryo? Saying it ‘isn’t developed enough’ is not answering the question. What trait defines the ability to no longer kill the life? Why is it that stage that is magically develops the trait of consciousness?

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…that characteristic would be a brain that is developed enough. At 16 weeks the brain is not yet developed enough for it to gain consciousness…
[/quote]
[/quote]

…what are you talking about? You’re not making sense…

322

A baby is capable of independently surviving(with care) so directly causing its death through neglect or otherwise is unacceptable.

However, an embryo is unable to survive without its mothers womb therefor it is a part of the mother’s body. No different than any other organ. In that, it is her decision of what to do with it. Until the fetus develops to the point where you can remove it from the mother and have it survive, it is a cluster of cells belonging to the mother and not itself.

Yes however throwing away a live baby is disturbing. Also excuse me if I didn’t read all of the thread and if I missed where this argument was headed.

323

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Ephrem, you need to stick to one argument. Sometimes you talk about how some people’s lives aren’t perfect and abortion is the lesser of evils. Next you try to justify abortion as the removal of unwanted cells not correlating to human life.

Even you have to see how these arguments are at least mildly contradictory. If abortion is better for the child than letting it live, you donÃ?¢??t need justification of “it isnÃ?¢??t a human yet”. If it isn’t a human life there is no need for sad hard life stories.

Honestly I think you believe it is a necessary evil. All this talk of what constitutes killing and when consciousness happens is an effort to convince yourself, not others, that it’s okay and you shouldn’t feel bad for thinking it’s necessary. But either way it really has to boil down to one or the other. It cannot be a necessary evil that isnÃ?¢??t evil, as you are trying to argue.[/quote]

…bullshit, i’m answering questions, nothing more. Please refrain from telling me what i do, or don’t believe. I’ve said on numerous occasions that abortion is a sad affair for everyone involved, and should be avoided if at all possible, but abortion should never be made illegal…[/quote]

Exactly my freaking point. If it is a “sad affair” you’re admitting that it is more than a clump of cells. Unless you think it’s a sad affair every time you trim your nails. You are being entirely inconsistent. And after denying what I figured about you, you say something to prove it. You’re statement is pretty much exactly what I was attributing to you.

324

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Ephrem, you need to stick to one argument. Sometimes you talk about how some people’s lives aren’t perfect and abortion is the lesser of evils. Next you try to justify abortion as the removal of unwanted cells not correlating to human life.

Even you have to see how these arguments are at least mildly contradictory. If abortion is better for the child than letting it live, you donÃ??Ã?¢??t need justification of “it isnÃ??Ã?¢??t a human yet”. If it isn’t a human life there is no need for sad hard life stories.

Honestly I think you believe it is a necessary evil. All this talk of what constitutes killing and when consciousness happens is an effort to convince yourself, not others, that it’s okay and you shouldn’t feel bad for thinking it’s necessary. But either way it really has to boil down to one or the other. It cannot be a necessary evil that isnÃ??Ã?¢??t evil, as you are trying to argue.[/quote]

…bullshit, i’m answering questions, nothing more. Please refrain from telling me what i do, or don’t believe. I’ve said on numerous occasions that abortion is a sad affair for everyone involved, and should be avoided if at all possible, but abortion should never be made illegal…[/quote]

Exactly my freaking point. If it is a “sad affair” you’re admitting that it is more than a clump of cells. Unless you think it’s a sad affair every time you trim your nails. You are being entirely inconsistent. And after denying what I figured about you, you say something to prove it. You’re statement is pretty much exactly what I was attributing to you.[/quote]

…it’s a sad affair for the people involved DD, i’m not considering a <16 week old fetus to be people. Is it clearer now?

325

[quote]Deorum wrote:
A baby is capable of independently surviving(with care) so directly causing its death through neglect or otherwise is unacceptable.

However, an embryo is unable to survive without its mothers womb therefor it is a part of the mother’s body. No different than any other organ. In that, it is her decision of what to do with it. Until the fetus develops to the point where you can remove it from the mother and have it survive, it is a cluster of cells belonging to the mother and not itself.

Yes however throwing away a live baby is disturbing. Also excuse me if I didn’t read all of the thread and if I missed where this argument was headed.[/quote]

…i agree, and thank you for posting…

326

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it’s a sad affair for the people involved DD, i’m not considering a <16 week old fetus to be people. Is it clearer now?[/quote]

No, you are completely missing the point and I don’t know how to make it any simpler. If it is nothing more than some cells, if it isn’t human, why the hell would it be sad for anyone?

Are you sad when you trim your nails? No. Are you sad when you get your hair cut? No. Do you get sad for all the skin cells you lose daily? No.

The fact that you admitting that it is sad makes it entirely different than someone loosing cells that are part of their own body. I hope you understand now, I typed this very slowly for you.

327

[quote]snipeout wrote:
http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/570428.html

They threw a live baby away. This is what is wrong with abortion, these people have no respect for human life, living or dead. I know you will say it wasn’t the doctor. Does it really matter?

I would hope the mother(term used loosely)would receive nothing monetary from this lawsuit. Did the mother name this child? I don’t get how you name something you intended on KILLING. I totally understand naming a baby that dies, but not one that you kill. Thats pretty sick. [/quote]

Oh stop it this isn’t happening.

When you make abortion common place that doesn’t mean that people will disrespect life, just ask any left winger. It’s a womans right to kill her child and nothing bad can possibly come from this.

It’s called liberal logic.

There are a whole host of other things which liberal logic can be applied to as well, but they would be off topic.

328

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it’s a sad affair for the people involved DD, i’m not considering a <16 week old fetus to be people. Is it clearer now?[/quote]

No, you are completely missing the point and I don’t know how to make it any simpler. If it is nothing more than some cells, if it isn’t human, why the hell would it be sad for anyone?

Are you sad when you trim your nails? No. Are you sad when you get your hair cut? No. Do you get sad for all the skin cells you lose daily? No.

The fact that you admitting that it is sad makes it entirely different than someone loosing cells that are part of their own body. I hope you understand now, I typed this very slowly for you.[/quote]

…what makes it sad is the knowledge that a potential will not be met. Making the choice to abort is never easy, even if the circumstances of becoming pregnant are horrific. However, this does not negate the fact that taking away the fundamental right of a woman, even if that right is allready limited by law to a certain timeframe, is worse, period…

329

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it’s a sad affair for the people involved DD, i’m not considering a <16 week old fetus to be people. Is it clearer now?[/quote]

No, you are completely missing the point and I don’t know how to make it any simpler. If it is nothing more than some cells, if it isn’t human, why the hell would it be sad for anyone?

Are you sad when you trim your nails? No. Are you sad when you get your hair cut? No. Do you get sad for all the skin cells you lose daily? No.

The fact that you admitting that it is sad makes it entirely different than someone loosing cells that are part of their own body. I hope you understand now, I typed this very slowly for you.[/quote]

…what makes it sad is the knowledge that a potential will not be met. Making the choice to abort is never easy, even if the circumstances of becoming pregnant are horrific. However, this does not negate the fact that taking away the fundamental right of a woman, even if that right is allready limited by law to a certain timeframe, is worse, period…
[/quote]

Worse, okay, just what I figured. You are at least willing to admit that abortion is bad. So are you sad about every sperm that doesn’t fulfill it’s potential?

Then, may I ask, do you think it is okay to force me to care for a child I had no decision in creating, through taxation? Is that no violating my fundamental right?

330

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it’s a sad affair for the people involved DD, i’m not considering a <16 week old fetus to be people. Is it clearer now?[/quote]

No, you are completely missing the point and I don’t know how to make it any simpler. If it is nothing more than some cells, if it isn’t human, why the hell would it be sad for anyone?

Are you sad when you trim your nails? No. Are you sad when you get your hair cut? No. Do you get sad for all the skin cells you lose daily? No.

The fact that you admitting that it is sad makes it entirely different than someone loosing cells that are part of their own body. I hope you understand now, I typed this very slowly for you.[/quote]

…what makes it sad is the knowledge that a potential will not be met. Making the choice to abort is never easy, even if the circumstances of becoming pregnant are horrific. However, this does not negate the fact that taking away the fundamental right of a woman, even if that right is allready limited by law to a certain timeframe, is worse, period…
[/quote]

Worse, okay, just what I figured. You are at least willing to admit that abortion is bad. So are you sad about every sperm that doesn’t fulfill it’s potential?

Then, may I ask, do you think it is okay to force me to care for a child I had no decision in creating, through taxation? Is that no violating my fundamental right? [/quote]

…i’ll admit no such thing, and what has that got to do with anything?

331

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it’s a sad affair for the people involved DD, i’m not considering a <16 week old fetus to be people. Is it clearer now?[/quote]

No, you are completely missing the point and I don’t know how to make it any simpler. If it is nothing more than some cells, if it isn’t human, why the hell would it be sad for anyone?

Are you sad when you trim your nails? No. Are you sad when you get your hair cut? No. Do you get sad for all the skin cells you lose daily? No.

The fact that you admitting that it is sad makes it entirely different than someone loosing cells that are part of their own body. I hope you understand now, I typed this very slowly for you.[/quote]

…what makes it sad is the knowledge that a potential will not be met. Making the choice to abort is never easy, even if the circumstances of becoming pregnant are horrific. However, this does not negate the fact that taking away the fundamental right of a woman, even if that right is allready limited by law to a certain timeframe, is worse, period…
[/quote]

Worse, okay, just what I figured. You are at least willing to admit that abortion is bad. So are you sad about every sperm that doesn’t fulfill it’s potential?

Then, may I ask, do you think it is okay to force me to care for a child I had no decision in creating, through taxation? Is that no violating my fundamental right? [/quote]

…i’ll admit no such thing, and what has that got to do with anything?
[/quote]

Oh, but you did already.

My point is, if it’s such a rights violation to force a mother to care for her OWN child, it must to be an even bigger rights violation to force someone else to care for it.

332

[quote]studgorilla wrote:

[quote]StraightEdgeHxC wrote:
Fun fact;

Here abortion is illegal. If you are caught having an abortion. They kill you… and they kill the doctor giving the abortion. Period.
[/quote]

Where is “here”? What is your location?[/quote]

Oh sorry. Chile.

333

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it’s a sad affair for the people involved DD, i’m not considering a <16 week old fetus to be people. Is it clearer now?[/quote]

No, you are completely missing the point and I don’t know how to make it any simpler. If it is nothing more than some cells, if it isn’t human, why the hell would it be sad for anyone?

Are you sad when you trim your nails? No. Are you sad when you get your hair cut? No. Do you get sad for all the skin cells you lose daily? No.

The fact that you admitting that it is sad makes it entirely different than someone loosing cells that are part of their own body. I hope you understand now, I typed this very slowly for you.[/quote]

…what makes it sad is the knowledge that a potential will not be met. Making the choice to abort is never easy, even if the circumstances of becoming pregnant are horrific. However, this does not negate the fact that taking away the fundamental right of a woman, even if that right is allready limited by law to a certain timeframe, is worse, period…
[/quote]

Worse, okay, just what I figured. You are at least willing to admit that abortion is bad. So are you sad about every sperm that doesn’t fulfill it’s potential?

Then, may I ask, do you think it is okay to force me to care for a child I had no decision in creating, through taxation? Is that no violating my fundamental right? [/quote]

…i’ll admit no such thing, and what has that got to do with anything?
[/quote]

Oh, but you did already.

My point is, if it’s such a rights violation to force a mother to care for her OWN child, it must to be an even bigger rights violation to force someone else to care for it.[/quote]

…nice try, but no dice. You have some warped logic going on there, good luck with that!

334

[quote]StraightEdgeHxC wrote:

[quote]studgorilla wrote:

[quote]StraightEdgeHxC wrote:
Fun fact;

Here abortion is illegal. If you are caught having an abortion. They kill you… and they kill the doctor giving the abortion. Period.
[/quote]

Where is “here”? What is your location?[/quote]

Oh sorry. Chile.[/quote]

…i did not know that. The wiki page on the subject says nothing about a death penalty, but it does give you an idea of the possible consequences of making abortion illegal: Abortion in Chile - Wikipedia

335

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…nice try, but no dice. You have some warped logic going on there, good luck with that!
[/quote]

You could always not admit it …again…

There is nothing warped in my logic. You say it’s a rights violation to force someone to care for an unwanted child. I get forced to do it every day through taxes. I’m assuming you are against this. They are taking away my right to not care for a child that isn’t even mine.

336

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…nice try, but no dice. You have some warped logic going on there, good luck with that!
[/quote]

You could always not admit it …again…

There is nothing warped in my logic. You say it’s a rights violation to force someone to care for an unwanted child. I get forced to do it every day through taxes. I’m assuming you are against this. They are taking away my right to not care for a child that isn’t even mine.[/quote]

…sigh you say i said abortion is bad; i never said such a thing. You say i said it’s a rights violation to force someone to care for an unwanted child; i never said such a thing. Seeing how you like to jump to conclusions without actually discussing the subject; i’m done [with you]…

337

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…sigh you say i said abortion is bad; i never said such a thing. You say i said it’s a rights violation to force someone to care for an unwanted child; i never said such a thing. Seeing how you like to jump to conclusions without actually discussing the subject; i’m done [with you]…
[/quote]

No I said you admitted it. There is a difference. So who is putting words in who’s mouth?

“by outlawing abortion you’re denying half of your countries population the basic human right of self determination”

“denying 150 million people basic human rights”

“because that means that half your countries population lost it’s right to self determination, and is subject to the state”

“…no mother will be forced to care for a child”

“i find it incredibly arrogant that someone else, men, think it’s perfectly fine to assume authority over what happens to a woman’s body”

“fetus’ rights can’t supercede the women’s right to selfdetermination”

You say over and over again that it is a rights violation. It violates self determination. So you must be against taking the sweat from my brow to pay for poor children. It clearly violates the same right of self determination you apparently hold so dear.

You are going to force me to carry a child that is parasitic to my life, liberty and property?

I don’t even think you know what self determination means.

338

you say the brain has certain characteristics, what would those traits be?

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…what are you talking about? You’re not making sense…[/quote]

339

From the moment of conception the baby is ALWAYS separate from the mother. It is NEVER the choice of the woman. A baby has a complete and different DNA from the mother, they don’t even share blood. The mother was there to create the life, she shouldn’t have the right to kill a life because it might be in her way. Can you kill your parents when they get in the way?

[quote]Deorum wrote:
. . . . survive without its mothers womb therefor it is a part of the mother’s body. No different than any other organ . . . .[/quote]

340

I am studying abroad in Santiago right now : ) I didn’t know they had laws like that in place. Good for them!! It will happen someday in the US, I just hope it’s soon ; )

[quote]StraightEdgeHxC wrote:

Here abortion is illegal. If you are caught having an abortion. They kill you… and they kill the doctor giving the abortion. Period.

Oh sorry. Chile.[/quote]