[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]b89 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]b89 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]b89 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Karado wrote:
“Winning” in Afganstan meant making the country a place where there is no easy, safe, base for OBL to train terrorists for the next attack on the US or the West. Large-scale terrorists training requires a state sponsor (or at least a state shelter).
This has been accomplished, for now"
WHEW…Thank goodness, because there is no where else on Planet Earth our enemies can train like they did
in Afghanistan.
[/quote]
You’re right. We might as well just surrender and not try to contain the terrorists because it’s hard. We should just convert to Islam and cut off our daughters’ clits/vaginal lips as they demand. Also, everyone kill a Jew and a Catholic.
Of course there are other countries that might shelter terrorists, but the list is suprising finite: Iran, Yemen, various lawless areas in Africa.
Each area has challenges for countries that are potential targets as well as challenges for Al-Quada or like-minded groups.
And each area is the subject of intense military pressure/targeting.[/quote]
I’m just curious. The U.S. gives Israel about $3 billion a year in aid, which doesn’t ever have to be paid back. What exactly is it that we’re getting in the form of a return on that investment? Other than propping up the lone legitimate democracy in the region, what tangible return is that $3 billion getting us? At what point does Israel take responsibility for its own security and safety? At what point does Israel become self-reliant?
I know that it is a large reason as to why the U.S. is the intended target of so much terrorist activity. What do you think would happen to the U.S. if we used that $3 billion a year to further fortify our ability to protect ourselves from terrorists here, rather than preemptively take the fight to them halfway around the world? What sort of impact on the “war on terror” would seeking to disengage from the sort of activity on Muslim lands that clearly inflames these terrorists have? Are we really seeking the best avenue to winning what is essentially an unwinnable war?
After all, how do you defeat “terrorism”? It’s a war tactic. Trying to defeat it is like trying to defeat the idea of flanking maneuvers or the concept of air superiority.[/quote]
Do you honestly think Israel isn’t self-reliant? That aid money is to keep Israel buying products to put in the hands of their military, it’s also the only nation to use as a proxy against practically any nation in its surrounding area. A lot of aid money really comes down to getting nations to play ball with America and side with our interests, it also maintains influence.
That depends on what you consider defeat, war isn’t a sporting event. In sporting events a team can legitimately win or lose, armed conflict can last indefinitely. Also, nothing is going to stop terrorist organizations from attacking anyone. Especially not an Islamic terrorist organization. Blaming things on the West and Israel is just an easy way to gain support for their goals, they’d continue to attack regardless. [/quote]
I also don’t understand what you mean by saying that Israel acts as a proxy against other nations in the area. How is it that they act as a proxy? There isn’t a single Israeli soldier fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. We can’t let them fight there because they would be a complete detriment to all of our efforts at rebuilding those nations. The fact is that we cannot accomplish any of our goals in Iraq or Afghanistan with the help of Israelis. How does that help us out at all?[/quote]
The IDF went into Syria and blew up a nuclear facility, that’s using them as a proxy. It’d be a big fucking problem for America if we did that, particularly discussing that with China and Russia. Same with going into Iran and assassinating somebody, Israel just really doesn’t care at all and says “If you don’t like it do something about it.” while America is saying “Listen, guys. Please stop your nuclear program. OK?” to avoid a war with Iran. They can do things that benefit the United States without the United States having to put its name on it and deal with it.[/quote]
That’s a good point. But still, do we need to fund these actions ourselves? Israel’s economy is booming right now, to the point where there is legitimate reason to question their need for aid from us. Will they continue to take the step that we cannot or are not willing to take if we cease funding them? I think they will.
I’m not sure if Israel really needs U.S. aid to survive in the Middle East anymore. I think they certainly did at one point, but perhaps it’s time for the U.S. to cut the cord. After all, the actions you described are being carried out because they are in Israel’s best interest as well, not just the U.S. They’re doing us a favor, but it’s something that they would do with or without our endorsement. Given that our endorsement seems to be a large part of what enflames anti-American sentiment and motivates terrorists to take action against the U.S., i don’t think it makes any sense to continue to foot the bill for actions on the part of Israel that may benefit us when the fact is that they would perform those same actions regardless of our support.
And if they cannot legitimately defend themselves without our support, then what the fuck are we giving them aid for? What is the point? Don’t you think that after, what, 65 years or so of financial aid, they’d be able to reach the point of self-determination? Where else in life does it make sense to foot the bill for someone’s improvement when they aren’t making any progress toward improvement?[/quote]
Of course they’ll, Israel doesn’t play around at all. But let’s say America says to Israel “Hey, we need you guys to do… In Iran for us.”, Israel will say “We’ll be taking the heat for it whether or not it works out and if we’re doing… We think you should support us on X issue and give us Y so our military can be better equipped”. Not only that but getting that money ensures they buy American products rather than giving us the finger altogether and developing their own. A worst case scenario would be another nation, let’s say Russia, telling surrounding nations to give Israel a break and start writing checks to Israel to play ball with them. As long as things are good on Israel’s end they could let things that hurt America’s interest go on.
Personally, I think America needs to start closing the checkbook to other nations. Namely Pakistan. They never keep up with things on their end, they can’t support us publicly and all they’ve done for America is let’s take care of their insurgent problem. They can’t deal with the Taliban or AQ at all. This nation should tell them it’s time to put up or shut up, work on relations with America and live up to your end of the bargain. That or India gets to do some cool training exercises with us and an aid package they could only dream of having.[/quote]
I get what you’re saying, BUT, we don’t need Israel to spend money on our products to thrive. It’s a tiny country with a tiny population. If we remove the $3 billion in aid from them, and then they turn around and stop buying everything from us, I doubt we’ll even notice it in terms of economic health. They simply don’t make any sort of tangible difference to our economy as a whole.
But they sure as shit do make a difference in terms of our foreign policy. I don’t think it’s that smart to prop up the one country in the Middle East that everyone hates, regardless of how misguided that hate is. I don’t think we should denounce Israel by any means. I simply think that it might behoove the U.S. to say to them that they need to fight their own fights on their own, and we’ll fight ours on our own. It’s not going to reverse the targeting of terrorist activity at the U.S., but you know what? It can’t hurt things either, and I think at this point we may as well take whatever gamble that represents and find out what would happen.
Israel simply does not represent a smart investment anymore, as far as I’m concerned.[/quote]
Terrorist organizations are the byproduct of unique events in the region. Unimaginable poverty, dictatorships and a religion that explicitly lays out how and what every adherent should be doing in their daily life has left us with organizations that are part cult, political party and gang. Now I’m not saying Islam truly falls in line with what terrorist organizations or their members do, but if the United States quits supporting Israel it wouldn’t change anything. You know how here in the United States how some politicians made it seem like illegal immigrants are taking all of the jobs and we should just blame everything on them? It’s a scapegoat, it’s the same thing with the West and Jews. It’ll always be something with them and poor people with no real education or opportunities tend to have no problem with getting involved in professions that aren’t particularly legal. As long as organizations can recruit people by talking about how evil America, the West or Jews are they’ll keep doing it.
Strategically it’d be stupid to concede it to them. Bin Laden was treated like a superhero for “defeating” the Soviets, if AQ could say “We forced America to quit supporting Israel” it’d be humiliating for the United States and only do more to increase recruiting for AQ. Realistically the best option is to keep the heat on terrorist organizations. It’s why, unfortunately, insurgents would join up with the ANA or Afghanistan police. Fighting the Infidels is cool until your guys get taken out or you get a JDAM up your ass, then it’s time to reevaluate your life. People may not like America but if attacking America has consequences nobody wants to deal with then eventually they’ll stick to taking out people in their own neck of the woods, most likely innocent Muslim women and children in public places.