I agree with your edit, but they’re separate issues.
Muslims are not a united people. The Muslims in Turkey are not the Muslims in Iran are not the Muslims in Saudi Arabia. To pretend otherwise would be ridiculous.
Do radical Muslims claim to hate Jews, or Israeli’s? Just interested.
Here’s a short list of who they hate:
Americans (ALL)
Christians (ALL)
Jews (ALL)
Israelis (ALL)
Europeans (only the ones that won’t eventually convert to Islam)
Africans (only the non-Muslims)
[/quote]
Radical “Muslims” give Muslims all around the world a bad name.
I would agree. What can be done to turn this situation around?[/quote]
[quote]Chushin wrote:
You seem like a good, honest and fair guy. So, please let me ask: If SO many Muslims are good, moderate, etc, why do they never seem to protest terrorism done in the name of Islam with anything near the numbers, frequency or intensity that the alleged minority of “radicals” do over cartoons, teddy bears and god-knows-what-else?[/quote]
Honestly man, I don’t know of any practial solutions to this problem. I do know that Mosque’s around USA preach that these radicals are doing wrong things - but then again - that doesn’t change the situation, it just tells us something we already know.
I do wish Muslims all over would take a more public role in denouncing these fundamentalists. I suppose we could raise money for the victims of these Terrorists (which many mosques already do). But as far as what really would make a difference, I’m not sure.
I also wonder, what would be the benefit if there was a huge outcry against these radicals by other Muslims? Clearly, they are set in their ways and use force to do what they want to do - so why would they care what about of other Muslims think? I suppose that would go a long way in improving the “rep” of Muslims all around the world.
I saw a sad story on TV a while back about Muslims who came to the US from Kosovo. They loved America and were grateful that we saved their lives.
When they went to their local Mosque they could not believe it was infiltrated by US-hatin’ Wahhabi’s.
All funded by our ally the Saudis, I suppose.
Maybe we in the States could police this sort of thing like Morocco does. You know, stop the hate-speech. What do you think would happen if we tried that?
[quote]mafzal4 wrote:
I also wonder, what would be the benefit if there was a huge outcry against these radicals by other Muslims? Clearly, they are set in their ways and use force to do what they want to do - so why would they care what about of other Muslims think? I suppose that would go a long way in improving the “rep” of Muslims all around the world. [/quote]
Fair supposition.
The “rep” would indeed improve. But for that, one would need the media to report on the story. That is, it should happen on a slow-news day. If anything more exciting comes along, it’ll most likely be buried. People peacefully protesting don’t grab headlines unless they get shot or tased. That’s one thing.
The “huge outcry” scenario also assumes that enough people care about the “rep” of Muslims in the eyes of [insert name of person whom amalgamates Muslims and terrorists].
Of course, plenty of people, will say that the “outcry” is dishonest and purposefully deceitful (i.e: Muslims are liars). Or, they will place responsibility for Al-Qaeda on Muslims. That is, they’ll argue that “talk is cheap” and say that Muslims have more responsibility than the rest of society to catch terrorists.
For the record, I participated at one “huge outcry” in Casablanca around 2003, but for some reason, it didn’t get any attention from the American media. A figure of two million protesters was quoted, but I don’t buy it. What is certain is there were a shitload of people. In my entire life, I had never seen anything of that scale.
Because of the example that mohammad set in the koran, hadith and sura, as long as Islam exists there will be muslims who are available to be radicalized, especially in their teens and twentys.
Imams and family upbringing have a limited ability to influence because muslim teens are like everyone elses, they have a tendency to do the opposite of what mommy and daddy tell them. There are liberal families that have produced jihadists and there are jihadist families whose kids have rejected their upbringing and turned against the jihad.
Jihad is in the koran and that is unfixable. The only fix is for muslims who don’t want to be part of the jihad and don’t want to produce kids who are vulnerable to being drawn into the jihad to leave the religion. This will reduce the availabel pool of potential recruits making it much easier for us to kill our way through whats left of the jihadists.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Of course, plenty of people, will say that the “outcry” is dishonest and purposefully deceitful (i.e: Muslims are liars). Or, they will place responsibility for Al-Qaeda on Muslims. That is, they’ll argue that “talk is cheap” and say that Muslims have more responsibility than the rest of society to catch terrorists.
[/quote]
Is placing the responsibility for Al-Qaeda on Muslims any worse than blaming ALL Americans for the war in Iraq because we vote and pay taxes?
And as far as Muslims having MORE responsibility than others…when others, like America, catch or kill terrorists, we are heavily condemned. So, why shouldn’t Muslims take responsibility? Someone should, no?
If you have absolved Muslims in any culpability for terrorist activities, why did you participate in the event in 2003? Just wondering.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Thank you for your idiotic pessimism and negativity. Clearly you’ve never heard of the “Million Man March” or the March on Washington, since “protesting [doesn’t] grab headlines unless they get shot or tased.” Your (lack of) knowledge about the American psyche is stunning. I can’t speak for coverage in the rest of the world…Tell you anything about your statements about the US? [/quote]
Yes, I never heard of the “Million Man March”. And that illustrates my point. Most non-Americans never heard of it.
I, as a Muslim, don’t give a rodent’s bottom about the people that lay the burden of proof on me. If someone’s stupid enough to file me under “bad” based on my faith, that’s their problem, not mine.
That’s much healthier, and a giant leap from the situation I describe where people lay the burden of proof on Muslims.
I bother to keep my religion’s name clean by the way I behave and treat people on a day-to-day basis. I voice my opinion when asked, or when I see someone confused about the nature of Islam in good faith. Anyone that has already jumped to conclusions based on Ben Laden’s actions is worth little in terms of my time, effort and respect.
Don’t be obtuse. If you can’t see the amount of people in the US who place the burden of proof on Muslims or downright calls them liars, then you are clearly not paying attention. Whole think-tanks are set up for that very purpose in the US. Not to mention the media empire of one Rupert Murdoch for whom Obama’s childhood in Indonesia was reason enough for poisonous attacks.
What’s that supposed to mean?
No, you clod! The targets included a 5-stars international hotel, a restaurant of the Italian consulate and a Jewish graveyard and a bar notorious for prostitution.
That was the only one I attended. Subsequent gatherings of that association were about women’s rights, government corruption and similar issues.
So, if there is only an insignificant minority of Muslims extremists in Islamic nations/regions–where women apostates, and religious minorities are horribly oppressed–does that make a significant majority of Muslims in those places enabling cowards?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, if there is only an insignificant minority of Muslims extremists in Islamic nations/regions–where women apostates, and religious minorities are horribly oppressed–does that make a significant majority of Muslims in those places enabling cowards?[/quote]
If “moderate” Muslims go against the Islamists, the Islamists will just pronounce takfir on them with justification from Islamic jurisprudence and references to the Qur’an and Sunnah. That’s the problem. “Moderates” have no authority from the canonical texts or jurisprudence for being moderates.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, if there is only an insignificant minority of Muslims extremists in Islamic nations/regions–where women apostates, and religious minorities are horribly oppressed–does that make a significant majority of Muslims in those places enabling cowards?[/quote]
Which countries do you have in mind? Name some and we can discuss the situation in those.
And let it be noted that women are not a minority.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
So, if there is only an insignificant minority of Muslims extremists in Islamic nations/regions–where women apostates, and religious minorities are horribly oppressed–does that make a significant majority of Muslims in those places enabling cowards?
If “moderate” Muslims go against the Islamists, the Islamists will just pronounce takfir on them with justification from Islamic jurisprudence and references to the Qur’an and Sunnah. That’s the problem. “Moderates” have no authority from the canonical texts or jurisprudence for being moderates. [/quote]
With or without the ability to textually jusitfy their “Moderate” brand of Islam, if they’re the vast majority of Muslim, they could set upon the tiny portion of extremists and eradicate them rather easily. Armed with guns or not, if the numbers do favor the moderates so greatly, they should be able to drag extremist clerics and neighbors out into the street for some “justice” rather easily. Thereby freeing apostates and homosexuals often from death, or flight from their homelands. And, women and religious minorities from–far too often–a brutal and shameful second class citizenship.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
So, if there is only an insignificant minority of Muslims extremists in Islamic nations/regions–where women apostates, and religious minorities are horribly oppressed–does that make a significant majority of Muslims in those places enabling cowards?
If “moderate” Muslims go against the Islamists, the Islamists will just pronounce takfir on them with justification from Islamic jurisprudence and references to the Qur’an and Sunnah. That’s the problem. “Moderates” have no authority from the canonical texts or jurisprudence for being moderates.
With or without the ability to textually jusitfy their “Moderate” brand of Islam, if they’re the vast majority of Muslim, they could set upon the tiny portion of extremists and eradicate them rather easily. Armed with guns or not, if the numbers do favor the moderates so greatly, they should be able to drag extremist clerics and neighbors out into the street for some “justice” rather easily. Thereby freeing apostates and homosexuals often from death, or flight from their homelands. And, women and religious minorities from–far too often–a brutal and shameful second class citizenship.[/quote]
The problem is the actions of Mohammed himself. He did the very same things these extremists did: beheadings, stonings, political assassinations, plunder. Just read the biography of Mohammed by Ibn Ishaq translated into English. If even moderate Muslims revere Mohammed as an example of behavior (because the Qur’an says that he is one), then they have no basis for opposing extremists when they do the same things MOhammed did.
[EDIT: The issue in any conflict is the moral authority to wage a conflict. From an Islamic standpoint, moderates have no moral authority upon which to base their struggle. ]
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
So, if there is only an insignificant minority of Muslims extremists in Islamic nations/regions–where women apostates, and religious minorities are horribly oppressed–does that make a significant majority of Muslims in those places enabling cowards?
Which countries do you have in mind? Name some and we can discuss the situation in those.
And let it be noted that women are not a minority.[/quote]
A starter for you on Women’s issues. Let me know if you can’t find anything on religious minorites and apostates being harrassed, oppressed, and/or brutalized by state or public at large. Should be easy enough though. Lots of reports, and lots of different women’s and religious rights groups keep tabs on these abuses.
The human rights of women throughout the Middle East and North Africa are systematically denied by each of the countries in the region, despite the diversity of their political systems. Many governments routinely suppress civil society by restricting freedom of the press, expression, and assembly. These restrictions adversely affect both men and women; however, women are subject to a host of additional gender-specific human rights violations.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
So, if there is only an insignificant minority of Muslims extremists in Islamic nations/regions–where women apostates, and religious minorities are horribly oppressed–does that make a significant majority of Muslims in those places enabling cowards?
Which countries do you have in mind? Name some and we can discuss the situation in those.
And let it be noted that women are not a minority.
A starter for you on Women’s issues. Let me know if you can’t find anything on religious minorites and apostates being harrassed, oppressed, and/or brutalized by state or public at large. Should be easy enough though. Lots of reports, and lots of different women’s and religious rights groups keep tabs on these abuses.
The human rights of women throughout the Middle East and North Africa are systematically denied by each of the countries in the region, despite the diversity of their political systems. Many governments routinely suppress civil society by restricting freedom of the press, expression, and assembly. These restrictions adversely affect both men and women; however, women are subject to a host of additional gender-specific human rights violations. http://www.hrw.org/women/overview-mena.html[/quote]
Did you suddenly lose the ability to comprehend text?
