[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Muslims believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that he’s coming again. Jews don’t.
[/quote]
You are correct as to Jewish belief, of course.
Muslims, almost. Muslims deny that the Nazarine in question DIED and was RESURRECTED, then left.
Small, but very material, point.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I’m thinking of going back to my roots, in Judaism. Too many choices among the Christian faiths.
[/quote]
If your mother was Jewish there’s no need to “go back” to anything. You’ve been a Jew since the day you were born.
All you need to do now is start acting like one. Of course, now you have 603 more commandments to keep, assuming you’ve been keeping the first ten. [/quote]
My mother was Jewish but non-practicing. She died when I was very young.
613 rules…that’s a lotta rules!
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I’m thinking of going back to my roots, in Judaism. Too many choices among the Christian faiths.
[/quote]
If your mother was Jewish there’s no need to “go back” to anything. You’ve been a Jew since the day you were born.
All you need to do now is start acting like one. Of course, now you have 603 more commandments to keep, assuming you’ve been keeping the first ten. [/quote]
My mother was Jewish but non-practicing. She died when I was very young.
613 rules…that’s a lotta rules!
[/quote]
Probably 1/3 apply to Temple practice and another 1/4 strictly to Levites, so it’s about 255 or so you’d have to mess with.
And “Be excellent to one another”* gets you through about 150 of those.
If you were remotely serious, I’d recommend just calling a local Chabad and coming as a a vistor.
They are distinctly non-toolish when it comes to Jews who don’t know what the fuck they are doing, and generally have minimal politics.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Muslims believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that he’s coming again. Jews don’t.
[/quote]
You are correct as to Jewish belief, of course.
Muslims, almost. Muslims deny that the Nazarine in question DIED and was RESURRECTED, then left.
Small, but very material, point. [/quote]
Yeah, it was a clumsy reading of Surat an-Nisa 157 on my part, which I acknowledged earlier.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
And “Be excellent to one another”* gets you through about 150 of those.
[/quote]
I wonder how you would interpret the “party on dudes” injunction of said Rabbis. What rules does that help with? Or is it strictly stress management? 
Varq, out of serious curiosity how many hours a day do you spend reading? You and DocSkeptix might be the most ridiculously well-read people I have ever “conversed” with.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Moses did not lead the “frenzy of conquest,” but you already knew that[/quote]
Okay, so he commanded Joshua to do it. Leader, commander, tomayto, tomahto.
Actual fact? You mean holding up to scrutiny and subject to peer review? The historicity of Moses himself is contentious in some circles, so we might have an uphill battle in demonstrating that the revelation of Torah directly from the Almighty was an actual fact. We are talking about articles of faith here.
It’s an actual fact to one point six billion people, just as a communion wafer transubstantiating into the literal body of Jesus is an actual fact to another billion or so other people.
Now, I imagine that some Catholics don’t really really believe this (Pat? Your opinion?) much as I suspect that not all Jews really really believe that the account of the creation in Genesis is how it all actually happened (Jewbacca? DrSkeptix? Am I mistaken?).
That Muhammad received the Quran from the angel Gabriel, however, is an article of faith believed by every Muslim on the planet. So, by the way, is Moses’ receiving the Torah from God.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
And “Be excellent to one another”* gets you through about 150 of those.
[/quote]
I wonder how you would interpret the “party on dudes” injunction of said Rabbis. What rules does that help with? Or is it strictly stress management? :)[/quote]
I refer you to the Song of Solomon.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
And “Be excellent to one another”* gets you through about 150 of those.
[/quote]
I wonder how you would interpret the “party on dudes” injunction of said Rabbis. What rules does that help with? Or is it strictly stress management? :)[/quote]
That would be the Feast of Purim, in which you are mandated to get drunk, if physically able and don’t have something important to do.
(Seriously.)
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Varq, out of serious curiosity how many hours a day do you spend reading? You and DocSkeptix might be the most ridiculously well-read people I have ever “conversed” with.[/quote]
I cannot hold a candle to Doc’s menorah.
But yeah, I read a lot.
[quote]pat wrote:
Abraham did do what God had instructed him,[/quote]
You sure about that Pat? Had he waited for God to give him a son through Sarah, as was promised, and not slept with Hagar we would not be in this predicament.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
We are talking about articles of faith here.
[/quote]
Now this is completely different. It seemed you were claiming fact and not faith and the reason for my question.
Moses has more claim to the lineage of Abraham than Muhammad does historically. Especially when Moses was only a few generations removed from Abraham than Muhammad being 2-3000 years apart. Claiming that lineage is logically false.
My issue with the Qua-ran is the extreme contradiction of it. The first half is one way and the second half is the complete opposite. Most Muslims wont even argue that fact.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
My issue with the Qua-ran is the extreme contradiction of it. The first half is one way and the second half is the complete opposite. Most Muslims wont even argue that fact.
[/quote]
Whoa. I’d like to see a source citation for that claim. You are implying that the majority opinion in Islam is that the Quran is internally contradictory. I’m sorry to disagree with you, but I am positive that most Muslims would most definitely argue that “one half is one way and the other half is the complete opposite.”
The three questions that now spring to mind are, one, how much of the Quran have you actually read? Two, how much of the Bible have you read? And three, how many Muslims have you actually discussed comparative religion with?
The reason I ask is that the odd are excellent that they know the Quran better than you know the Bible, and the odds are extremely good that they will know the Bible better than you know the Quran, and will be happy to point out plenty of biblical contradictions to you.
Of course, I could be mistaken about your scriptural knowledge, so I wont jump to any conclusions.
Prejudge not, lest ye be prejudged, you know.
Stick with Jewish. Much better for your career and finances.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Moses did not lead the “frenzy of conquest,” but you already knew that[/quote]
Okay, so he commanded Joshua to do it. Leader, commander, tomayto, tomahto.
Actual fact? You mean holding up to scrutiny and subject to peer review? The historicity of Moses himself is contentious in some circles, so we might have an uphill battle in demonstrating that the revelation of Torah directly from the Almighty was an actual fact. We are talking about articles of faith here.
It’s an actual fact to one point six billion people, just as a communion wafer transubstantiating into the literal body of Jesus is an actual fact to another billion or so other people.
[/quote]
The number of Catholics and Muslims are about the same, 1.2 billion. Of course, nowhere in the world are you forced to be Catholic by penalty of death. Then there is the issue of paper vs. practicing Catholics.
Some but very few. The Real Presence is the foundation of the faith. I believe in it strongly. There is no denying for me. The profundity of the Eucharist is to much to deny.
[quote]
That Muhammad received the Quran from the angel Gabriel, however, is an article of faith believed by every Muslim on the planet. So, by the way, is Moses’ receiving the Torah from God. [/quote]
Moses received the commandments from God. He wrote the Torah.
I find it unwise to pit religions against each other. It’s a bloody mess. To many slippery slopes because you have to measure each by the measure you give the other. I know right now, islam has a certain dangerous element to it that is a threat to peace everywhere in the world. I don’t know if that’s the faith itself or just the people who is the problem. I don’t know enough about it to judge. I know it offers me nothing and I don’t believe in it’s basic premises or practices.
Christianity has the biggest balls in that the claim of God incarnate as man on Earth is the boldest of all. We are so used to it, we don’t realize just how big a claim that is, and who would make such a claim if not true? Particularly starting in a time where it could mean your imminent death for claiming it. It also changed the world more profoundly than anything else ever has. And it still is.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Abraham did do what God had instructed him,[/quote]
You sure about that Pat? Had he waited for God to give him a son through Sarah, as was promised, and not slept with Hagar we would not be in this predicament.
[/quote]
The interesting thing about this is Abraham was not rebuked by God for sleeping with Hagar. Also, Sarah willingly gave Hagar to Abe. It was her idea.[/quote]
When he knocked up Hagar, he merely said he will make his offspring like the dust of the Earth. He later promised him a descendant in Isaac. I am pretty sure he meant Ishmael to be born and he allowed Islam to come to be. I do not pretend to know why or what his plan is, but he has one. He didn’t promise a rose garden. He said it was going to be messy, but we have to keep the faith.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Before Moses, Balaam, a non-Israelite, was called a prophet[/quote]
Half of our politicians could be prophets, if all that it takes to qualify is talking out your ass…[/quote]
Please! More credit to the asses!
Note, please, that the king sent Balaam on what was essentially a military mission, and Balaam conscripted an unwilling donkey. It was the donkey who saw the truth first and dissented; an encomium to the humble grunts who guard and serve!
If only we could reliably pull so much truth from our asses!
[quote]Varqanir wrote:…
much as I suspect that not all Jews really really believe that the account of the creation in Genesis is how it all actually happened (Jewbacca? DrSkeptix? Am I mistaken?)… [/quote]
No. Of course not. Even having parsed it with KK, the observant do not take the first verses of Genesis as a precise historical record. Cosmology is utterly unimportant; religious and historical consequences are what is important.
How can something be both true and untrue at once? How is it possible to honor both belief–which requires no proof–and science, which tests the unbiased observation of nature only. As you, V, yourself noted years ago, it is the genius who can hold two contradictory notions in his mind at once.
Since we are developing a theme: Maimonides, once again in the Mishneh Torah, answers the problem of contradictory and perplexing problems. Science requires proofs. “When it becomes clear that those proofs are not valid, the soul weakens in its assent to what is being proved. It is preferable that a point for which there is no demonstration remains a problem, or that one of the two contradictory propositions simply be accepted…This being the case, we lack the capacity to know how God knows all creatures and their activities, yet we do know beyond doubt that a human being’s activities are in his own hands.”
In this brief paragraph, the contradiction of divine foreknowledge and absolute free will is addressed, quite nicely I think, for the believer, as well as for the doubter.
This reasoning is more accessible in Isadore Twersky’s Introduction to the Code of Maimonides, in a profound explanation of divinely revealed law–which is true and valuable and requires no proof–and its role in advancing human perfection.