They Want Israe...Spain?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]lixy wrote:
BH6 wrote:
So how do we break this cycle? Hamas isn’t going to back down now that it has gained political power and influence and Isreal is going to continue to defend itself aggressively and with no regard for the rest of the international community.

The Arab league recently (re)introduced a peace plan that has the backing of the WHOLE international community and Hamas said that they have nothing against it. The US and Israel - once more - stand alone in refusing the proposal. I, along with many many people, believe that it could just be the way out.

I urge you to look at it if you haven’t already. It’s fair to both sides (incidentally, it’s nothing but a reframing of UN res, 242 that the US and Israel has been blocking ever since its introduction). The Israeli government itself found nothing to criticize in it.[/quote]

Yes everybody likes it. Hamas and their Palestinian cronies have to stop launching rockets and sending suicide bombers into Israel. Also they have to acknowledge Israels right to exist.

If they do it, peace has a chance. If they do it not, then it really doesn’t matter who comes up with what proposal. The violence must stop first. Hamas does not want peace they want the land Israel sits on. They say so themselves. It is there mission and purpose for existing. So pretty much, talking with them is a waste of time.

62

[quote]pat36 wrote:
The violence must stop first. Hamas does not want peace they want the land Israel sits on. They say so themselves. It is there mission and purpose for existing. So pretty much, talking with them is a waste of time.
[/quote]

What a position!

So, if talking is a waste of time, what do you recommend to stop the conflict?

On a side note, it is widely believed that Hamas would have never had a chance in the mainstream had it not been for the assistance it got from Mossad.

According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, “Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)”.

Anyway, I don’t think pointing fingers is doing any good at this stage, but would love to hear how you envision solving the problem and finally having some peace in the region.

63

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
The violence must stop first. Hamas does not want peace they want the land Israel sits on. They say so themselves. It is there mission and purpose for existing. So pretty much, talking with them is a waste of time.

What a position!

So, if talking is a waste of time, what do you recommend to stop the conflict?

On a side note, it is widely believed that Hamas would have never had a chance in the mainstream had it not been for the assistance it got from Mossad.

According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, “Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)”.

Anyway, I don’t think pointing fingers is doing any good at this stage, but would love to hear how you envision solving the problem and finally having some peace in the region.[/quote]

No talking is a great idea, but that is not what Hamas wants or will stand for. What good is talking to someone who wishes you to cease existing? It is against their religious view that any non-muslim occupy the space that Israel happens to be taking up. If Hamas won’t relent on their position, then talking to them is less than worthless.

For there to be peace in the region there has to be an agreed cease fire. The they can talk. What good is talking to somebody who unwaveringly seeks your destruction?

64

The thing is that as long as both the politic AND the religious part of Hamas thinks that “we want all of Israel” is a good point of view, peace is hard to come by.

Therefore: Reforming both the political and religious part of Hamas is a key point, to do this you need to remove the “devil” both fights. A stable “wall” of peace (ha ha…) from Israel, with international presence (it is easier for Israel to accept dead NATO or UN soldiers without a public outcry…) will make the image of the DEVIL wither…

65

http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/juergensmeyer.htm

Read his works on religion and violence, interesting!

66

Nothing will stop the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I suppose one side might be able to completely eliminate the other. Outside of that, it’ll never happen.

67

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Nothing will stop the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I suppose one side might be able to completely eliminate the other. Outside of that, it’ll never happen.[/quote]

When you say “one side”, you mean the world’s 5th most powerful army. And when you say “the other”, I suppose you mean a stone-throwing Katyusha-hacking bunch

If such is your belief, there is little incentive to waste time and energy working towards peace.

68

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Nothing will stop the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I suppose one side might be able to completely eliminate the other. Outside of that, it’ll never happen.

When you say “one side”, you mean the world’s 5th most powerful army. And when you say “the other”, I suppose you mean a stone-throwing Katyusha-hacking bunch

If such is your belief, there is little incentive to waste time and energy working towards peace.[/quote]

You seem to “forget” Iran, Syria, Libanon… and other arab forces, both formal and informal… :wink: So your comparison isn’t really fair…

I would also invite you to my trip to the area in August, we can camp in a tent in the Katyusha area, I’ll make a note of how much you appreciate those when they are a few hundred miles closer to you… :wink:

69

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
You seem to “forget” Iran, Syria, Libanon… and other arab forces, both formal and informal… :wink: So your comparison isn’t really fair…[/quote]

Well, if you wanna draw other countries who support either sides into the equation, make sure to include the US.

Also, remember that none of those I “forgot” have nukes.

No thanks. I’ll pass.

But I’m curious. What exactly are you gonna do there?

70

[quote]lixy wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
You seem to “forget” Iran, Syria, Libanon… and other arab forces, both formal and informal… :wink: So your comparison isn’t really fair…

Well, if you wanna draw other countries who support either sides into the equation, make sure to include the US.

Also, remember that none of those I “forgot” have nukes.

I would also invite you to my trip to the area in August, we can camp in a tent in the Katyusha area, I’ll make a note of how much you appreciate those when they are a few hundred miles closer to you… :wink:

No thanks. I’ll pass.

But I’m curious. What exactly are you gonna do there? [/quote]

I’m going to meet up with friends/relatives, have a good time in Eilat, do Krav Maga in Tel Aviv, discuss politics (you can say what you want about religion, just as I do, but talmudic traditions create great arguments… :wink: ), do a walkabout in the desert, drink arab tea in small tea shops in eastern jerusalem, put a little “why do I not squat 600lbs oh mercifull god”-note in the wall…

well, the ordinary stuff I guess… :slight_smile:

Back to topic: if you mention USA, I have to mention Russia, if you look at the arms in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iran… They are mostly Chinese/Russian fabricates… :wink: The largest problem in the middle east from 1950-60 till 1991 was Russia and USA using the area to test out new weapons…

71

[quote]JeffR wrote:
majicka wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

The Madrid bombings and the subsequent election and pull out from Iraq.

Yes, but the vast majority of the population was against the invasion of Iraq before the bombings. As I stated before, certainly the news coverage over here in the UK, showed that the Aznar government was basically trying to blame ETA, when everyone knew it wasn’t them.

I don’t think it’s correct to say that Spain capitulated to terrorism- most people didn’t want Spain in Iraq, anyway. After all, Spain, like the UK has experienced terrorists attacks on a not infrequent basis for several decades. What outraged the population was the government’s botched cover-up.

Here’s a quote from Wikipedia:

'Two days after the Atocha bombings, demonstrations of crowds took place across Spain demanding news from the investigation, where chants such as “We want the truth before we vote” and “Who is responsible?” were heard.

Three days after the train bombings, the opposing socialist party PSOE won the elections.

The investigations held by a Parliamentary Committee were characterised by bitter partisan exchanges between the various political parties, with great disputes over who may have been responsible for the bombings.

However, the unanimous view of the security services as well as of all political parties except the PP is that ETA was not involved in the attacks’

majica,

Sorry, I missed this post.

I thought we were past this. Your understanding was flawed and you were corrected. You had received forgiveness.

Why are you continuing to argue this point?

The incumbent government was going to win reelection by all indicators.

Then the bombs hit.

They ran away/appeased. Plain and simple.

Do you really want to argue this more?

If yes, then we’ll have to dig up some actual numbers.

My hope is that you let this go and move onto some other area in need of correction.

JeffR

[/quote]

Haha! Your arrogance is amazing!

What have you actually provided that is of substance other than saying that the Spanish government ‘caved in to terrorism’? Why should one event, i.e. Aznar’s government basically lying about the attack being perpetrated by ETA, not swing an election?

I look forward to seeing your evidence.

If I’ve got the wrong end of the stick of what you were saying, likewise let me know.