They Call It Murder?

[quote]orion wrote:
Biologically it at least has the potential to become human life.

I do not really care if you call a fertilized egg human life or not because

a) your definitions are up to you and

b) there is nothing that necessarily follows from it.

[/quote]

It really feels like I am talking to a wall. The definition of life is not up for debate, it begins at conception. The definition of a person can be debated, but either way it does not contribute much to the abortion argument.

Answer my question, and I will show you what follows from it.

[quote]orion wrote:
Huh? I am just talking about the right to live. This is not a legal privilege.

No, but what is an entity that is naturally endowed with such a right is by necessity a legal definition.
[/quote]

Of course there is a legal definition, but this does not make it so that it is not a natural right, it simply provides a legal basis for punishing the taking of a life.

[quote]tedro wrote:
orion wrote:
Huh? I am just talking about the right to live. This is not a legal privilege.

No, but what is an entity that is naturally endowed with such a right is by necessity a legal definition.

Of course there is a legal definition, but this does not make it so that it is not a natural right, it simply provides a legal basis for punishing the taking of a life.

[/quote]

I see your point but that is irrelevant when it comes to putting theory into practice.

You can argue that a person has an inherent right to live.

Next question:

What is a person?

Just because you think it is self evident that a fertilized egg is a person and therefore has a right to live or has a right to live and therefore must be a person does not only not make it so, it also goes against any classic definition of human person or human being.

You need to define it, period.

[quote]tedro wrote:
orion wrote:
Biologically it at least has the potential to become human life.

I do not really care if you call a fertilized egg human life or not because

a) your definitions are up to you and

b) there is nothing that necessarily follows from it.

It really feels like I am talking to a wall. The definition of life is not up for debate, it begins at conception. The definition of a person can be debated, but either way it does not contribute much to the abortion argument.

Answer my question, and I will show you what follows from it.[/quote]

So let us call it human life then.

Like an appendix or tonsils.

[quote]tedro wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
I happen not to agree with abortion. I think in a perfect world everyone should reap the consequences of their actions. But this isn’t a perfect world. And I think it is very legitimate to think about what the baby’s life will be like if it is carried to term by some of these people. Victims of abuse, drug addicts, etc… What if the baby is severely developmentally challenged? A categorical ban on abortion just doesn’t make sense to me. I recognize that many argue for something less than this and something more than what we have now-like exceptions for congential deformities or for victims of rape or incest.

First, it is not you decision to make as to whether or not a life is worth living. This being the case, don’t you agree you should ere on the side of life?

Second, why would you be for abortion when your problem is clearly with other criminals. Instead of legal abortions, maybe we should aim to get to the root of these other problems.[/quote]

No, it’s not my decision. Why should it be YOURS instead of the MOTHER’S with the advice of her doctor? Who are you to say that a mother should bear a severely compromised child to term whether or not she has the funds to make sure it will even be minimally comfortable. There are a lot of different diseases out there of all levels of severity. The pain and suffering of those with them varies. As does the financial and emotional strain on families. This does not necessarily mean that a woman in this situation should choose to abort or that those who don’t choose this aren’t very admirable. But the choice should be for them and not for some stranger to make. These are not individuals who are reaping the consequences of their own carelessness. They are in a very tough situation and it’s not for some unknown stranger to make blankte determinations of what the best resolution is in all situations.

As far as the other issues go, we should certainly work to get to the root of the problem. But rape and incest continue to occur. The two are not mutually exclusive. The fact that we are working to solve these problems and have a long way to go does not mean we should force pregnant women to carry these babies [living reminders of traumatic rape or likely to be severely compromised with gentic abnormalities] to term in the meantime.

[quote]orion wrote:
I see your point but that is irrelevant when it comes to putting theory into practice.

You can argue that a person has an inherent right to live.

Next question:

What is a person?

Just because you think it is self evident that a fertilized egg is a person and therefore has a right to live or has a right to live and therefore must be a person does not only not make it so, it also goes against any classic definition of human person or human being.

You need to define it, period.
[/quote]

No, actually I do not need to define it. I can construct a perfectly reasonable argument against abortion without defining it. You just need to answer my question, I think you already know where it leads and that is why you will not respond it.

Nonetheless, the simplest definition for a person is that it is a human being and a human being is an individual of the species homo sapien. Life of a homo sapien begins, like all animals, begins at conception. The burden is on the abortionist to provide a different definition that allows for the killing of a specific type of person.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
No, it’s not my decision. Why should it be YOURS instead of the MOTHER’S with the advice of her doctor? Who are you to say that a mother should bear a severely compromised child to term whether or not she has the funds to make sure it will even be minimally comfortable. There are a lot of different diseases out there of all levels of severity. The pain and suffering of those with them varies. As does the financial and emotional strain on families. This does not necessarily mean that a woman in this situation should choose to abort or that those who don’t choose this aren’t very admirable. But the choice should be for them and not for some stranger to make. These are not individuals who are reaping the consequences of their own carelessness. They are in a very tough situation and it’s not for some unknown stranger to make blankte determinations of what the best resolution is in all situations.
[/quote]
There are a couple of problems here. First, you have chosen a very small percentage of abortions to defend, we are talking about abortion in general. Second, Why stop there? Let’s say a 6-month old is badly-injured and will spend the rest of his life in pain. Does the mother have the choice to kill him? Having said that, since when did the mother or doctor get to decide whether or not the child should live?

[quote]
As far as the other issues go, we should certainly work to get to the root of the problem. But rape and incest continue to occur. The two are not mutually exclusive. The fact that we are working to solve these problems and have a long way to go does not mean we should force pregnant women to carry these babies [living reminders of traumatic rape or likely to be severely compromised with gentic abnormalities] to term in the meantime.[/quote]

As far as incest without rape, this is a conscious decision and can be grouped into any of the other reasons for abortion.

For pregnancy from rape, while it is truely a tragic event, it was not the baby that chose to be conceived this way. Yet, this is one time where you can make a good argument for abortion. I’ll let you do the research to come up with it, though. My feelings are two wrongs don’t make it right, it is not the fetus’ fault and we should not punish it. Let’s create much tougher rape sentencing. A mandatory life sentence should work well. I would even be for cutting off a convicted rapists penis, similar to cutting off a hand for stealing. Obviously that would never fly in this country, but I am sure it would work wonders as a deterrent.

[quote]tedro wrote:
orion wrote:
I see your point but that is irrelevant when it comes to putting theory into practice.

You can argue that a person has an inherent right to live.

Next question:

What is a person?

Just because you think it is self evident that a fertilized egg is a person and therefore has a right to live or has a right to live and therefore must be a person does not only not make it so, it also goes against any classic definition of human person or human being.

You need to define it, period.

No, actually I do not need to define it. I can construct a perfectly reasonable argument against abortion without defining it. You just need to answer my question, I think you already know where it leads and that is why you will not respond it.

Nonetheless, the simplest definition for a person is that it is a human being and a human being is an individual of the species homo sapien. Life of a homo sapien begins, like all animals, begins at conception. The burden is on the abortionist to provide a different definition that allows for the killing of a specific type of person.
[/quote]

No the burden is on you that a specific sort of human life is a legal person.

You have yet to do that.

Your “simplest definition” is quite a stretch coming from any classic definition.

Once again, I do not accept your frame.

Whatever seems to be “obvious” to you is not to me nor does it have to be for a reasonably reasonable person.

Legally, i don’t think they can prosecute the kid. Abortion isn’t legally murder, as long as the baby is killed before it cries. At the point of the assault, the baby had yet to cry. the most they legally should be able to hit him with is Assault & Battery.

[quote]tedro wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
No, it’s not my decision. Why should it be YOURS instead of the MOTHER’S with the advice of her doctor? Who are you to say that a mother should bear a severely compromised child to term whether or not she has the funds to make sure it will even be minimally comfortable. There are a lot of different diseases out there of all levels of severity. The pain and suffering of those with them varies. As does the financial and emotional strain on families. This does not necessarily mean that a woman in this situation should choose to abort or that those who don’t choose this aren’t very admirable. But the choice should be for them and not for some stranger to make. These are not individuals who are reaping the consequences of their own carelessness. They are in a very tough situation and it’s not for some unknown stranger to make blankte determinations of what the best resolution is in all situations.

There are a couple of problems here. First, you have chosen a very small percentage of abortions to defend, we are talking about abortion in general. Second, Why stop there? Let’s say a 6-month old is badly-injured and will spend the rest of his life in pain. Does the mother have the choice to kill him? Having said that, since when did the mother or doctor get to decide whether or not the child should live?

As far as the other issues go, we should certainly work to get to the root of the problem. But rape and incest continue to occur. The two are not mutually exclusive. The fact that we are working to solve these problems and have a long way to go does not mean we should force pregnant women to carry these babies [living reminders of traumatic rape or likely to be severely compromised with gentic abnormalities] to term in the meantime.

As far as incest without rape, this is a conscious decision and can be grouped into any of the other reasons for abortion.

For pregnancy from rape, while it is truely a tragic event, it was not the baby that chose to be conceived this way. Yet, this is one time where you can make a good argument for abortion. I’ll let you do the research to come up with it, though. My feelings are two wrongs don’t make it right, it is not the fetus’ fault and we should not punish it. Let’s create much tougher rape sentencing. A mandatory life sentence should work well. I would even be for cutting off a convicted rapists penis, similar to cutting off a hand for stealing. Obviously that would never fly in this country, but I am sure it would work wonders as a deterrent.

[/quote]

Well, I can see where you are coming from. But you seem to believe that no matter what the situation that the fetus is entitled to live and indeed that it is always in its best interest to live. I disagree.

I also disagree that this is something that the general public should get to determine and apply to all indivudals rather than it being something for the mother, the doctor, and all those who are actually involved to wrestle with and decide. So, I don’t think we’re going to see eye to eye on this. I do agree that there should be much tougher sentences for rape.

But I still don’t think this would end rape by any means. Some rapists may just be out for a cheap thrill and because they are amoral don’t care about consent. If the punishment is big enough maybe it’d deter them. But I think some rapists are just truly sick and deranged just like pedohpiles and some murderers. They have a compulsion that defies all rationality and they are going to act on it. Consequences be damned.

 As far as killing children, you bring up a good point. No, I don't think a mother should actually get to kill a child that has already entered this world. But the issue does get easier as the child gets older. At some point, the child or the child who has become an adult can determine whether or not they want to live. I do believe in euthanasia, for example.

If someone has deadly cancer or a disease that robs them of all bodily fuction (can’t move, can’t go to the bathroom, etc…) I do think it should be their choice whether they want to stay alive. A six-month old obviously can’t make this determination. But they have been alive for 6 months. They have actually experienced life. Killing them is actually taking away something they have already experienced. Rather than just preventing them from ever experiencing anything. It’s definitely a tough issue.

But I just see a distinction between destroying something that has come into this world and preventing something from ever coming into this world at all, particularly if the pregnancy is terminated in the early stages. I have a hard time vocalizing and putting into words what the difference is. But I feel strongly that it exists.

[quote]orion wrote:
No the burden is on you that a specific sort of human life is a legal person.

You have yet to do that.

Your “simplest definition” is quite a stretch coming from any classic definition.

Once again, I do not accept your frame.

Whatever seems to be “obvious” to you is not to me nor does it have to be for a reasonably reasonable person.[/quote]

The constitution already says that we are all created equal, endowed by our Creator with our basic human rights. When are we created? At the time life begins. When does life begin? Conception. Therefore, at the moment of conception, an embryo is granted its very basic right to life.

Answer my question.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Well, I can see where you are coming from. But you seem to believe that no matter what the situation that the fetus is entitled to live and indeed that it is always in its best interest to live. I disagree.
[/quote]
I will give you that it may not always be in the fetus’ best interest to live, but nobody has the right to decide that they should be condemned to death.

You mean everyone except for the baby. There is no good reason for a mother to be the one to decide whether or not a baby has a right to life. There is not even a decision that should have to be made, we don’t permit murder anywhere else.

Of course not, this is far from a perfect world, but a stiff penalty would act as a strong deterrent.

If you agree that killing a child is wrong, you are going to have to draw a line somewhere. How are you going to draw this line? Just out of pure convenience?

Here is where you go wrong. Is murder wrong because it takes away past experiences, or is murder wrong because it takes away future experiences? By your logic it is ok to kill someone with amnesia, because they have no past experiences to miss. But then, can one really miss a past experience? Sure, but death has nothing to do with it. I will never again experience what happened to me yesterday. I can remember it, but I cannot experience it again.

Murder is wrong because it deprives an individual from all future experiences. This is how to argue against abortion without resorting to the It is a person/it is not a person arguement. If you kill an embryo, you are also depriving it of any future experiences.

Here is Don Marquis’ future like ours argument. It is a bit lengthy, but worth the read. You will be happy to know that it addresses all of the issues you have with euthanasia.

http://uwstudentfpweb.uwyo.edu/n/narvik/teaching/PHIL1000S/Marquis%20Why%20Abortion%20is%20Immoral.pdf

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:
Legally, i don’t think they can prosecute the kid. Abortion isn’t legally murder, as long as the baby is killed before it cries. At the point of the assault, the baby had yet to cry. the most they legally should be able to hit him with is Assault & Battery.[/quote]

Before it cries? So if a child is born mute you can abort it at 7 years or even later?

Seriously as long as the head has not left to womans body, it is abortable. (Not sure thats a real word though.)

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
No, I will only accept an argument that answers the question. Is it a human life or not? This is not a hard question, it’s either yes or no. There is no kinda, sorta, blah blah blah. It is either a human life or it isn’t. To answer the question with shit like “who will take care of the babies” or “do you want a bunch of kids born into misery?” is simply an avoidance technique. A way to dodge the truth. If you (or anybody else) cannot answer the question directly, then you very well know the damn truth and to fucking stubborn to admit it, period.

There is no answer. There’s no set definition. Is it when a baby is born/comes out of the womb? When it passes a certain stage of development? When sensory organs and brain reaches a point that it can feel? These are all unsettled issues. Very tied up in moral and legal judgments. The argument will go on forever. But you are wrong to say that this is the sole issue. Whether a woman should be able to take a life inside her even if you accept that it has become a human being at this point is also a big dispute. And it will continue to be. Legally, human life does not begin until the baby has left the womb completely. I’m not sure I agree with this, but I believe that is how it is defined. So, if a man punches a woman late in pregnancy and she loses the baby, it is considered illegal abortion and not homicide. [/quote]

There is an answer, of course. The little fetus either is or is not a human being. Stages of development be damned. We still go through different stages as adults. I don’t think anybody would argue that we are more or less human depending on what stage in life we are in.
This is the central question whether or not the fetus is a person. Because if the fetus is a person and you think killing a person is wrong, then logically you cannot condone the killing of a person for any reason save for a threat to your own life, or in this case, the mothers.

[quote]orion wrote:

No, I will only accept an argument that answers the question. Is it a human life or not? This is not a hard question, it’s either yes or no. There is no kinda, sorta, blah blah blah. It is either a human life or it isn’t. To answer the question with shit like “who will take care of the babies” or “do you want a bunch of kids born into misery?” is simply an avoidance technique. A way to dodge the truth. If you (or anybody else) cannot answer the question directly, then you very well know the damn truth and to fucking stubborn to admit it, period.

Biologically it at least has the potential to become human life.

I do not really care if you call a fertilized egg human life or not because

a) your definitions are up to you and

b) there is nothing that necessarily follows from it.

[/quote]

Nice try on side stepping. The sperm and the egg, have potential. The fertilized egg is the realized potential. Definitions are not arbitrary, there is one right definition and the rest are wrong ones.

[quote]orion wrote:
tedro wrote:
orion wrote:
Biologically it at least has the potential to become human life.

I do not really care if you call a fertilized egg human life or not because

a) your definitions are up to you and

b) there is nothing that necessarily follows from it.

It really feels like I am talking to a wall. The definition of life is not up for debate, it begins at conception. The definition of a person can be debated, but either way it does not contribute much to the abortion argument.

Answer my question, and I will show you what follows from it.

So let us call it human life then.

Like an appendix or tonsils.

[/quote]

An entire human life cannot be likened to a body part. That’s like saying the ‘Smart’ car is like the fender off of a '62 Chevy coup.

[quote]IvanDmitritch wrote:
This stuff about Christian doctrine being the sole reason for a “pro-life” position is crap. Christians, like everyone else in this debate, have simply taken a metaphysical position as to when life begins. Since I think we all agree that a right to privacy does not trump another’s right to life, that’s what the debate centers on. The “pro-life” crowd choose conception. Those who are “pro-choice” choose birth. In the former, there is a qualitative difference before and after; the latter, a difference of location, food intake, waste expulsion and respiration. Sounds like we should just start offing people in intensive care by that logic.

On the topic of this kid, no way can he be charged with murder. The only difference between what he did and what a woman does at an abortion clinic is he carried out an abortion without the mother’s consent. Consent can not be a mitigating factor for murder unless it comes from the person who’s life is being taken. That presents a problem for a group who deny the “personhood” of a fetus. Property damage, battery and a lawsuit for emotional distress. That’s it.[/quote]

As far as the first paragraph goes, here is a quote from the Bible which may be why “the ‘pro-life’ crowd choose conception”:

http://bible.cc/isaiah/49-1.htm

I agree with the rest of what you wrote 100%

This is the same as the Peterson case. He was convicted of killing his wife and his unborn child. I thought the unborn child was “a part of the mother’s body.”

If he cut off her arm, would he be charged with murdering the arm?

[quote]tedro wrote:
orion wrote:
No the burden is on you that a specific sort of human life is a legal person.

You have yet to do that.

Your “simplest definition” is quite a stretch coming from any classic definition.

Once again, I do not accept your frame.

Whatever seems to be “obvious” to you is not to me nor does it have to be for a reasonably reasonable person.

The constitution already says that we are all created equal, endowed by our Creator with our basic human rights. When are we created? At the time life begins. When does life begin? Conception. Therefore, at the moment of conception, an embryo is granted its very basic right to life.

Answer my question.[/quote]

I think I already answered that.

Human life: Yes, if it pleases you.

Human person, no.

Plus, your constitution may have recognized equality and natural rights and yet they had no problem denying them to women and black people and yet you are trying to tell me they included fetuses?

Even female and black fetuses?

What are you T-Nations activist judge?

[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:

No, I will only accept an argument that answers the question. Is it a human life or not? This is not a hard question, it’s either yes or no. There is no kinda, sorta, blah blah blah. It is either a human life or it isn’t. To answer the question with shit like “who will take care of the babies” or “do you want a bunch of kids born into misery?” is simply an avoidance technique. A way to dodge the truth. If you (or anybody else) cannot answer the question directly, then you very well know the damn truth and to fucking stubborn to admit it, period.

Biologically it at least has the potential to become human life.

I do not really care if you call a fertilized egg human life or not because

a) your definitions are up to you and

b) there is nothing that necessarily follows from it.

Nice try on side stepping. The sperm and the egg, have potential. The fertilized egg is the realized potential. Definitions are not arbitrary, there is one right definition and the rest are wrong ones.

[/quote]

This is nonsense because most fertilized eggs are naturally aborted and even most kids won`t make it past 5 if not for some highly unnatural intervention.

So, a fertilized egg realizes a rather arbitrary “potential”.