“America has no king but Jesus!”
~Attorney General John Ashcroft
–the nation’s chief law enforcement officer.
Lumpy:
Here is an link to part of the Chalcedon Foundation’s web site. I suggest you read the whole thing (http://www.chalcedon.edu/credo.php). It is far too long to post here. But the part that addresses the subject of your concern is found in "Misconception 2: Political Dominion". You still may not agree with them (I don’t agree with them entirely), but hopefully you’ll see they are not coming to get you anytime soon.
Vroom:
Who, exactly, is forcing their religion on you?
[quote]Lumpy wrote:
“America has no king but Jesus!”
~Attorney General John Ashcroft
–the nation’s chief law enforcement officer.[/quote]
This could be read in a few different ways. I see it as humility: in other words, John Ashcroft does not see HIMSELF as the king of America, whereas leftist regimes view the state as the ultimate authority.
“We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans …”
[President Bill Clinton, ‘USA Today’ March 11, 1993: Page 2A]
Lumpy wrote:
“The sky is falling the sky is falling”
buddy, no one in america with any power is trying to install a fundamentalist regime in the united states, to compare the bush administration to OBL is not only ridicilious, but it is an insult to every single member of the bush administration and staff, which no doubt includes many god fearing christians, along with some jews, atheists and i am sure almost every other prominent religion or lack thereof in the world. This is possibly one of the silliest things i have seen you post.
[quote]Roy Batty wrote:
RJ, first I want to address the idea you put forth about the country being founded on judeo-christian law. That is actually historically incorrect. Before the constitution it certainly was. Puritans were the uptight occupiers of this land. But the founders were all pretty strong secularists. I will go more into this if you like, but I just wanted to start with that point. [/quote]
You’re probably right - but their is no denying that the founding father’s brand of secularism is hardly the same thing as our modern version. They knew the importance of religous freedom, and they tried to make sure that the gov’t never infringed on those rights.
That is not what we have today, when a highschool bible study had to sue to gain the right to meet during school like any other club. Is it radical to want the right to assemble? According to people like Lumpy it is.
But does that make those 58% radical? According to Lumpy it does.
I was under the impression that we had freedom of expression in this country - not just the minority. According to Lumpy, the 58% should just sit down and shut up because they are radical.
I agree 100%. However - No one has said anything about State sponsored worship in the public schools - this is strictly forbidden by the constitution. The interpretations of the fearful spin a momentary silence at the beginning of the day into state sponsored indoctrination.
I guess that really depends on what you consider a strong religous environment. I grew up the exact same way you did and developed a lot of the disdain for religion that is expressed on this site. My relationship with my God may be construed as a crutch by most on here - but it is not a religion in the sense you have suggested. I feel I owe my kids the honesty of my mistakes, the totality of my love, and the last breath of my protection. Along with it comes some pretty tough love. Does that make me a radical? According to Lumpy - since I don’t sip on soy latte’s and let the public schools raise my children - I must be a radical.
My problem with those of Lumpy’s ilk is that that they summarily dismiss anything coming from the christian right as being radical. So they love God. So they are vociferous about it. So they have an agenda. Is that all your scared of?
Roy:
Please cite one instance where President Bush said that “God works through him.”
Also, cite an instance where you know that President Bush was influenced by the religious right.
It’s been stated so many times from the left that you actually believe it. Not a good thing…
What you have done is sterotyped the President because of his religious beliefs. It’s simple bigotry! No different than stating that because someone is of African American decent he will act in a certain way. That’s wrong thinking!
A little toleration for someone of opposing belif is what is needed from the left. The same way you tolerate other groups which you have stated that you do not agree with (who happen to be on the left).
I think Christians, whatever position that they hold are entitled to the same tolerance offered up to other groups.
Zeb,
We got to figure out which God is speaking through people.
Apparently, Bush went in to Iraq under God’s command to lead a 21st century Crusade.
But uber-evangelical Pat Robertson claimed God told him Iraq was mistake and he told Bush so.
Bandgeek, did I suggest someone was forcing something on me?
Perhaps you should read what I said before deciding what it is that I am saying… 
At one time the “conservative” position was that the world was flat.
I have a thought.
How about running the gov’t by astrology?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Religion should be a private thing, not thrust upon others who may not have the same beliefs.
…However, why should he impose his religious views on those that are not Christian?
…I should choose to accept a religion, not have it forced upon me.[/quote]
Thrust, imposed, forced…
“Bandgeek, did I suggest someone was forcing something on me?”
Sounds like it Vroom. Either:
A. you/the left is concerned about religion being imposed upon you (or perhaps like accusations of the draft being re-instated, it is just…anyone know the term FUD? A convenient scare tactic)
OR
B. You realize that A is not going to happen and just object to Bush being allowed to be religious…because… beats me but religion clearly pisses off many of the left (dont’ think this one applies to you Vroom).
Or
C. you have not explained yourself enough–are there options aside from A and B?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Roy:
Please cite one instance where President Bush said that “God works through him.”
Also, cite an instance where you know that President Bush was influenced by the religious right. [/quote]
From the USA Today: “Bush believes he was called by God to lead the nation at this time, says Commerce Secretary Don Evans, a close friend who talks with Bush every day.”
He also reportedly told the Amish that “God speaks through me.”
From some close to Bush: “I think President Bush is God?s man at this hour,” a top White House aide told a religious publication not long ago. Ralph Reed, the former director of the Christian Coalition who now chairs the G.O.P. in Georgia, says his fellow evangelicals believe God selected the President because “He knew George Bush had the ability to lead in this compelling way.”
ZEB, you can also check out this article: Bush says God chose him to lead his nation | World news | The Guardian
It’s called “Bush says God Chose him to Lead this Nation.” In this article, you’ll find this quote: “Bush said to James Robinson: ‘I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can’t explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen… I know it won’t be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.’”
Let us not forget this little gem:
Sept. 16, in a rare press conference, Bush said, “This is a new kind of – a new kind of evil. And we understand. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while.”
You can also consider this, ZEB, from the article I’ve quoted before, “Without a doubt”:
[quote]on Feb. 1, 2002, Jim Wallis of the Sojourners stood in the Roosevelt Room for the introduction of Jim Towey as head of the president’s faith-based and community initiative. John DiIulio, the original head, had left the job feeling that the initiative was not about ‘‘compassionate conservatism,’’ as originally promised, but rather a political giveaway to the Christian right, a way to consolidate and energize that part of the base.
Moments after the ceremony, Bush saw Wallis. He bounded over and grabbed the cheeks of his face, one in each hand, and squeezed. ‘‘Jim, how ya doin’, how ya doin’!‘’ he exclaimed. Wallis was taken aback. Bush excitedly said that his massage therapist had given him Wallis’s book, ‘‘Faith Works.’’ His joy at seeing Wallis, as Wallis and others remember it, was palpable – a president, wrestling with faith and its role at a time of peril, seeing that rare bird: an independent counselor. Wallis recalls telling Bush he was doing fine, ‘’‘but in the State of the Union address a few days before, you said that unless we devote all our energies, our focus, our resources on this war on terrorism, we’re going to lose.’ I said, ‘Mr. President, if we don’t devote our energy, our focus and our time on also overcoming global poverty and desperation, we will lose not only the war on poverty, but we’ll lose the war on terrorism.’‘’
Bush replied that that was why America needed the leadership of Wallis and other members of the clergy.
‘‘No, Mr. President,’’ Wallis says he told Bush, ‘‘We need your leadership on this question, and all of us will then commit to support you. Unless we drain the swamp of injustice in which the mosquitoes of terrorism breed, we’ll never defeat the threat of terrorism.’’
Bush looked quizzically at the minister, Wallis recalls. They never spoke again after that.
‘‘When I was first with Bush in Austin, what I saw was a self-help Methodist, very open, seeking,’’ Wallis says now. ‘‘What I started to see at this point was the man that would emerge over the next year – a messianic American Calvinist. He doesn’t want to hear from anyone who doubts him.’’ [/quote]
Bush believes abortion is wrong and that belief is rooted in religion, not reason.
Bush is opposed to stem-cell research because it is in line with a certain sort of Christian beliefs. He maintains this belief at the expense of tremendous potential progress in health and science in general.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Zeb,
We got to figure out which God is speaking through people.
Apparently, Bush went in to Iraq under God’s command to lead a 21st century Crusade.
But uber-evangelical Pat Robertson claimed God told him Iraq was mistake and he told Bush so.
[/quote]
Excellent post.
Berner, Bandgeek:
If I’m a student in a classroom who is athiest, then I don’t want to waste time on prayer. Those who wish to pray can, maybe, come to class a minute early to get in a quick “what’s up” to the G-O-D.
If I’m of another religion, I don’t want to have to try to concentrate on my own prayer, while listening to others chant their Christian beliefs.
Prayer should be private and personal.
Pray when you wake up.
Pray when you sit down at your desk every morning.
Pray when you get in the car to go out to lunch.
Pray when you get home from work.
Pray before each set of a workout.
Pray before you drink your Surge.
Pray when you go to sleep.
Just don’t pray to me or waste my time while you pray…and, for God’s sake, don’t use prayer to guide your decisions in running the country. It would be far more entertaining if one were to use a magic 8 ball.
“bush believes abortion is wrong” - This makes him a lapdag for the religous extremists? Many people believe that abortion is wrong and mainly it is because of thier faith and thier strict interpretation of the part of biblical law that states “thou shalt not kill” but lemme guess that one isn’t a law that we should be following because it comes from religion.
Come on here, lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. If bush was that extreme with regards to religion, then why the hell did he execute more people on death row than any other govenor? Because He has a strong opinion of right and wrong and although his ideals lie with the teachings of the bible, he will certainly sway from those teachings if he thinks he needs to.
The bigger concern is why JFK wanted to allow partial birth abortions to continue. Can we all agree that this practice was not something that should be allowed? If you want an abortion there is plent of time to decide that before 3 months or however long it is.
Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins
Berner,
It’s hardly reasonable to pull sentences out of different paragraphs to concoct a meaning from them.
Here is the paragraph in question:
Admittedly, I could have switched the last statement to say “One should choose to accept a religion, not have it forced upon them”. However, I merely empathized with the concept that solutions need to be found that don’t force christianity on those that don’t practice it.
If you would prefer to attack me for thinking I feel that things are being forced upon me, rather than thinking abou the statement I have made, and determining whether it has merit or not, then that is your loss. You’ve given up the opportunity to see how someone else thinks on this issue… in a post that presented it apolitically.
Truly sad.
YOu hear the word Crusade being lobbed about by the Liberal all of the time. Let’s really look at it for what it is.
The original Crusades were made to take back the Holy Land which were taken over by the Muslims. The intent was to occupy and hold the Holy Land. It wasn’t a quest for additional lands it was to return the ones they used to have.
Well the Chrisitans ceded control. The the Israeli’s took it back. I think they were the original owners, weren’t they?
Now the Muslims want Palestine back. Israel out and the rest of us out of the middle east…then they want us to convert to Islam and submit to Allah. Read it…it’s all in the Koran and the Hadith’s. If you are going to push that agenda on the rest of the world you had better be prepared for it to resist and to pay the consequences.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
The bigger concern is why JFK wanted to allow partial birth abortions to continue. [/quote]
I reject the moniker that has been applied and is widely used. “Partial birth” implies that the fetus is in between being born and not being born. If the fetus is still inside the mother’s womb – IT’S NOT FREAKING BORN YET! End of story.
That said, I understand what the point of the discussion is, but it angers me that people attempt to make that point by applying a title that helps their argument by implying a certain meaning that is false.
[quote]
Can we all agree that this practice was not something that should be allowed? If you want an abortion there is plent of time to decide that before 3 months or however long it is.
Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins[/quote]
I agree that the decision could be made in a shorter period of time, but I’m not sure that it necessarily has to be. Also, there are circumstances unique to each situation which make the decision – and its timing – unfair to judge.
I don’t think abortion laws should exist. I’d prefer for babies not to be born than to be born into a life of poverty, abuse, etc. This is a tough pill to swallow for many, but I think the value of life corresponds directly with one’s experience, and experience doesn’t begin until the baby is born.
I will also, say, however, that the philosophical debate regarding abortion is a very, very difficult one – one I’m still very unsure about. I do know, however, that I reject the simple arguments of the right.
We have a President who prays? Oh my…what is this world coming to?
It sort of makes me pine away for the days when Presidents received oral sex from 21 year old interns. Ahh the good old days :).