Theocracy Watch

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

So when you invent this POD, abortion will not be okay anymore? This still does not take into account the all powerful choice of the mother. What if she doesn’t want it to live? You still haven’t thought out your statements to their logical conclusions.

A patient on the surgery table in the middle of a procedure has put his life COMPLETELY in the hands of that physician, i.e. if the doctor walks off halfway through then the patient will die. Does that then mean that it is okay for the doctor to kill that patient because the patient is dependent on him?

Don’t try to say that this is not a good enough analogy for you. Two lives,complete dependence,inability of one life to put forth an opinion…that close enough for you?

202

Whew, you boys have alot to talk about. I never knew you all could do that…:wink:

Ok, as a female and a pagan this “ideal” is pretty scary. So I am guessing both of these rights are up for grabs?

  1. What happens if I am raped? Then what is your ideal response to abortion? What if the baby is ectopic? Then what? I do not have a right to my choice of what I do to my body in these situations especially? No, I do not agree with third trimester abortions. To me it should not be an option but please don’t say that my rights should now be revoked to have a safe abortion if I so choose in the first trimester or even the second if it is ectopic.

  2. If it is decided that church and state aren’t separate can my daughter call the quarters (btw calling the quarters is calling the four directions and recognizing the elements of nature) and worship the Goddess in school? Just wondering. Will all faiths be recognized? Will everyone then get to worship if they want to as they want to - atheists included - ok so you don’t worship but you know what I mean…:wink: I went and observed Ramadan at the local Mosque. Not something I believe in but wanted to understand. I don’t feel many Christians realize that the Torah, the Bible and the Koran are all recognized in the Muslim faith. I have observed Quaker services or Meetings as they call them. I grew up Catholic. I am now a practicing Pagan. I certainly don’t worship a devil and don’t believe in a devil. That is actually a Christian term and view. “And it harm none so mote it be” is our version of “Do Unto Others”. There are many other faiths that say the same exact thing. I’ve read Buddhist text. Gnostic texts. Taoist texts. I am pretty eclectic in my spiritual views because damn it is all so interesting. As my one friend says, “God is too intelligent to have just one exclusive religion.”

The problem is Fundamentalism and the imposition of those views - no matter what faith it says it is involved with. This is the main problem. Fundamentalism is based on fear. I feel that if there is any true ‘sin’ out there it is fear. Fear has been handed down to all, generation after generation, and I feel we all really need to search a little deeper and take responsibility for our personal fear. The beauty of religion is taken out of context and twisted into what someone would like you to believe because they need some kind of control over something. Maybe what all of these guys need to do is, instead of projecting their fears of lack of wealth and uncertainty about where they are going after they pass on onto others, they should stop for a moment and take a deep look at these fears, whether they are legitimate or imposed on them, and resolve them. That is the only way we can move forward spiritually. Then will they truly understand the religion that they have chosen. We’re all trying to get to the same place no matter what we believe or don’t believe. Good luck in your journey…Namaste from a T-Wiccan…:wink:

203

The problem with abortion is the view of what it stands for. One side says murder, and the other says it is just tissue.

I will talk about both sides from a very high overview (I don’t have time to get too involved).

Pro life

If abortion is murder than every one would agree that is wrong. You brought up the question “what if I was raped?”

I agree that would be horrible; however you being wronged would not give you the right to commit murder. Who are you to decide if the Baby should live or die. It is tragic how it happened, but murder is just as wrong as you being raped.

It is tough to justify murder, even in self defense situations it is hard to understand that a human life is no longer in existance because you thought it was unfit to live. That is the issue that the right has taken.

Pro choice

The baby is nothing more than matter. It has no soul, and it is not living being. If that is truly all it is, then you are right who are we to question what you do with you own body?

We have to establish what the baby is before we could ever determine if there should even be a choice.

This is an issue that is based in a lot of moral, and ethical views. The room for gray thinking is huge, but the room for black and white facts is very limited.

It is so tough to deal with this because I really feel bad for the women that do get raped, and become pregnant. If it is matter then this is an open and shut deal. If it is murder then this is so much more complex than we understand.

204

A ton of great debate going on here too boys and girls! :wink:

Vroom - “However, forcing people to suffer the consequences of all their actions, when they could reasonably avoid those consequences, that raises a different set of problems.”

A I don’t view murder as reasonable, Second if a 13 year old girl is stupid enough to put her life in danger over having a baby, then yes she does deserve the consequinces and niether her nor her offspring will be able to further contaminate the gene pool. Come on, Good people die all the time in accidents, if a stupid person want’s to do stupid things that could end in thier death we should not do stupid things to keep them alive. We may go through a very tough transistion phase, but eventually the stories of all these girls killing and maiming themselves would spread through the media (or it should) and maybe teenage girls would start to learn the reality of thier decisions (teenage guys too)

Also about being raped, I agree it is terrible, but like another poster said, two wrongs don’t make a right, It is still half of your flesh and blood. It is still your baby. If you really don’t want it put it up for adoption.

I am also a very firm believer of people being rendered physically uncapable of having children when they decide that A) they don’t ever want any, or B) they have enough children.

I never said this would be a sunny walk in the park, but then again, why does everything have to be a sunny walk in the park? Is lifting a sunny walk in the park? do we get injured lifting? do we get sore? do we puke? do our muscles hurt and our bodies ache? Of course? then why do we do it? because the benefit… the end result, it is worth the pain and suffering. Society can endure pain and suffering too as long as the vision, and the end result are good and achievable. I think abortions can be done away with in all but emergency operations, I think this would in the end, make our society stronger, better, more enlightened, more aware of the importance of human life and the importance of our individual actions.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

205

Lots to catch up on.

to Veg:
Some of your views are downright scary. You obviously don’t know too many 13 year old kids. Sometimes they make stupid mistakes, but you can’t make a claim that they deserve to die so they don’t contaminate the gene pool. Just wait till you have a daughter and she screws up. That is right out of the 1930’s and '40’s with the Nazi’s “super race” talk. Doesn’t seem consistent with other posts of yours that I have read, so I assume you are just being sarcastic.

To all:
I have 3 children and in my ideal conditions, am personally very much “pro-life”. My problem with the legal issues is this… Who is the criminal? In most societies where conservative fundamentalist religion dominates (like the Taliban), women generally pay the price with harsh laws regarding anything related to sex. Veg mentioned responsibility, but who is then responsible? What about the father? What about the doctor?

I agree, BTW, that responsibility needs to be taken, but some things need to be relaxed as well, like the laws preventing RU486 (the morning after pill). If we are going to reduce the number of abortions, we need to give people viable options instead of treating pregnant women like criminals. The problem again with fundamentalists is that they want to prevent birth control as well, and basically force people to not have sex unless they are attempting to procreate. They even look down on people getting vasectomies (which I got last May, thank you very much!).So that leads me to believe that the real problem the Church has a beef with is sex itself. That is not ever going to change. I won’t EVER personally recognize the authority of any religion to tell me what I can and can’t do in the bedroom.

206

[quote]Suzannekemp1 wrote:
Whew, you boys have alot to talk about. I never knew you all could do that…:wink:

Ok, as a female and a pagan this “ideal” is pretty scary. So I am guessing both of these rights are up for grabs?

  1. What happens if I am raped? Then what is your ideal response to abortion?

I’m at work so I’ll have to take this one at a time…

When asked what would I do if my daughter got raped the reply was…I would kill the SOB that did it, not my grandchild! to me that puts it into perspective

207

Veg, you totally ignored what I was talking about, as usual…

208

Roy, I admit I was getting a little extreme with some statements, But I do think people should learn from mistakes, and easily fixing a big problem for someone doesn’t do that, Plus I still think it is murder so I don’t care if they are 13 or 14 or 16 or 28. If your 13 year old stabbed a pregnant woman in the stomach and killed her baby, your kid should get locked away for a very very long time. why is it any better if they do it to themselves?

Vroom - I am sorry if I dodged what you were talking about, you speak in such generalizations and wishy washy both sides of the fence language I have a hard time trying to figure out where you stand. Reminds me of john kerry a little.

'if I may summarise what I thought you said… when you hold people responsible for thier own actions possible bad things can occur. However if you make bad things go away for people it is generally better as long as we feel good about it. ’

Something to that effect? if not then you agree with me. So, since I know you don’t agree with me then please Clearly state what you were trying to say.

Roy, back to you, Hitler wanted to actively kill people who he thought were inferior, I say if someone cant survive on thier own than perhaps that was the way it was meant to be. Or more specifically if some dumb fuck cant exist in this estrogen filled society that we have created, all soft and cushy for them than they are indeed really weak and we should not hurt our own species by bailing them out. Shit if half of these arguments were heard by real tough people 200 years ago you guys would be laughed out of town. People back then made such great progress because the weak ones died. Same as in the animal kingdom.

Again I am not saying I want anyone to die. And if someone makes a mistake then yes they can be helped and should be helped. If a girl gets herslef pregnant, she can get help by support from her family and friends, and an adoption agency or a responsible male who will help her raise the child. Why is this such a bad thing to you guys?

Oh lets see it would be too much of a burden to help raise the child?

sorry, this pisses me off how some of you are ok with murder. Flat Out Murder.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

209

Veg, I give up Mr Compassion. When you learn to read and feel I’ll try again maybe.

[… edited to add the word “up” …]

210

Just to clear some things up:

When some fumdamentalists say they are opposed to birth control they usually don’t mean every kind of birth control.
They have actually taken their premises, life begins at fertilization and murder is wrong, and taken them to their conclusion.

If anything is purposefully done to abort the pregnancy after the fertilization has taken place then it is murder. This would INCLUDE such birth control methods as RU486, who’s method of action is to prevent the already fertilized egg from being implanted on the uterus and obviously abortion at any time. This would also EXCLUDE things like condoms and “the pill” which PREVENT the fertilization by various means.

There are also some people who believe that PREVENTION of pregnancy by any means is wrong i.e. condoms,pills,anything

211

I see someone finally resorted to the old “Your just like Hitler” argument.
I love that one.

212

Veg,
I don’t really know if Hitler was a social Darwinist or not. You obviously are. Not that there is anything wrong with that. We are all entitled to our opinions, but I sure as hell don’t want to live in your world. I have to admit though, you sound a LOT like me about 10 years ago, which is why I am not too critical of your point of view.

You still avoided answering my questions about who is the criminal. And although you find Vroom to be vague, his question about when the fetus ceases to become an egg and starts to become a human is still hanging out there. Are you okay with the morning after pill?

Since none of you in here know me I don’t mind sharing a sort of personal experience with you. When my wife was 17 she was brutally raped. At the time she was a virgin… The most she had ever done to that point was kiss a boy. Needless to say, as luck would somehow have it, she got pregnant. She carried the child to term and gave it up for adoption through a private firm that found her a really good family that could not have children. It was a real blessing to them. When she first told me about that it reinforced to me why I was in love with her. She had incredible strength, and I would not have blamed her for getting an abortion.

But not everyone is like her. She is very stubborn! Also, fortunately, she is a beautiful arian white girl who was raped by a fellow arian white guy so she had a beautiful blue-eyed child (just like the three that we have together), so she was able to pick and choose his future parents, and she picked a wealthy family from San Fran. How many wealthy, loving families out there are looking for a malnourished crack baby with mental retardation? The only real difference between yours and my perspectives, Veg, is that I also used to think that in cases like that abortions should be mandatory, followed by permanently preventing the mother from ever having any other children. I am less cynicle now.

When someone makes the choice to carry a child to term, that is admirable. Of course though, if they were raped by an escaped convict who had a low IQ and a double “Y” chromosome, are you still going to want to see what kind of child you produce? You say its not the child’s fault, but intelligence and that kind of neanderthalic behavior is genetic. To this day I wonder what that first child is like. Any woman would be within her rights to not be forced for her body to have to carry something that horrible that reminded her of a violent act on her body. Again, you are criminalizing the woman, even when she is the victim. If my little girl is ever raped and becomes pregnant, besides hunting down and slowly torturing the rapist bastard and feeding him his own testicles, I would strongly encourage her to abort the little abomination, because I would not want to be kin in ANY way to the rapist.

Sorry to go off on that tangeant so long, but it stirred some memories for me.

213

Roy, Sorry to not answer all the questions, the posts are long and I sometimes forget all the points made when replying.

Yes I view a woman having an abortion to be a murderer. You say you don’t know if the baby might be a reterd or a bad person, does that mean we should kill retards and bad people? No. Not in my view anyways.

You may think by me previous post that I don’t put a high value on human life. That is where you misunderstand me, I think all Human life is extremely important, I just feel that the individuals experiences and thier own free will should decide their fate, not somone elses. Obviously this cannot be avoided 100% if somone is murdered thier free will was taken away. likewise if a fetus is aborted thier free will is taken away. We cannot judge a creature based on the actions of it’s parents, rapists or not. i’ll submit that at least 95% of rapists learned that behavior through the society we have created. Getting people to stop thinking and acting like that is a whole nother topic but I believe we can almost totally rid our society of crime with the proper outlook and culture changes.

I adressed when I think the human life begins in another thread but i will quickly restate my position here. Human life begins when the first cell begins the process of replication, When a cell begins to act out the DNA and grow itself, this is the sign of advanced life. The cell clump to the fully formed fetus is still a stage of human existance, everyone has gone through those stages and to say that those early stages are not part of human life is to deny your own existance.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

214

[quote]rainjack wrote:

I don’t share birth control secrets with my daughter. I just spend time with her.

[/quote]

Rainjack, you’re awesome.