HH is right after all. Seems like the world turned on poor Wolfy.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
The Calif thinks so.
Well, if I get to be the Caliph, I’m on board then.
A few Imams might have heart attacks, though.
[/quote]
Rock the Kasbah!
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).
We just a peek behind the scenes when we read Zaps outburst.
Also snipeouts comments were quite revealing.
That whole freedom and democracy crap is just a facade.
When America’s interests are at stake, democracy and sovereignity are quickly cast aside. Because the bad guys do the same thing.
Well, if that’s true, what’s the difference between the US and the bad guys then?[/quote]
You get to vote, courtesy of quite a few dead Americans buried in your ‘backyard’. That’s the difference.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
You get to vote, courtesy of quite a few dead Americans buried in your ‘backyard’. That’s the difference. [/quote]
Ooh! So, now you’re sacrificing your lives to give others the right to vote? How altruistic!
Gimme a break!
The only reason your troops budge an inch is to protect your economic interests and give you control over strategic areas.
Explain to us why Washington was the first to congratulate Carmona when he used force to overthrow the DEMOCRATICALLY elected president in 2002. Explain to us why the reaction of the “free press” was to hail the coup.
Explain Mossadeq’s toppling. Explain the refusal to acknowledge Hamas as legitimate Palestinian government.
You only acknowledge democracy when the winner is on your side.
[quote]lixy wrote:
… Explain the refusal to acknowledge Hamas as legitimate Palestinian government.
…[/quote]
Explain Hamas’ refusal to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
… Explain the refusal to acknowledge Hamas as legitimate Palestinian government.
…
Explain Hamas’ refusal to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.[/quote]
Classic Zap! Picking on the one contreversial issue and disregarding all the other points.
Well, how about Israel’s refusal of Palestine to exist?
The point is that the US refused to acknowledge the result of the ballots and is actively trying to have Hamas removed by fostering a civil war. In case you didn’t hear, the US and Israel are actively arming, financing and training Fatah.
“many Middle East observers say the U.S. and Israel have both directly helped Fatah in recent months as part of an effort to topple the elected Hamas leadership. The U.S. is spending $86 million to help arm and train the Palestinian presidential guard which is loyal to Fatah leader, Mahmoud Abbas. This has helped pay for shipments of rifles and bullets. In January President Bush’s Deputy National Security Advisor Elliot Abrams called for a “hard coup” in the Occupied Territories to overthrow Hamas. Last week a Jordanian newspaper obtained a secret 16-page U.S. document that outlined an action plan for undermining and replacing the Palestinian national-unity government.”
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/17/1350250
Also, in case you were unaware, Israel deliberately allowed Hamas to gain power back in the 80’s and 90’s to weaken the secular PLO. Blew right in their faces if you ask me.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).
You can not replace Allende with Pinochet and then blow the freedom and democracy horn again. I’m afraid you’ll have to decide.[/quote]
Allende was a bad man.
Pinochet was a man that did what was necessary after the Chilenian parliament begged him to do something.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
… Explain the refusal to acknowledge Hamas as legitimate Palestinian government.
…
Explain Hamas’ refusal to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.
Classic Zap! Picking on the one contreversial issue and disregarding all the other points.
Well, how about Israel’s refusal of Palestine to exist?
[/quote]
Huh? They just refuse to accept a Palestine that wants to wipe Israel off the map. As soon as the Palestinian leaders renounce this desire and stop firing rockets into Israel things will change.
Of course the US is working against Hamas. Hamas is a sworn enemy.
[quote]
“many Middle East observers say the U.S. and Israel have both directly helped Fatah in recent months as part of an effort to topple the elected Hamas leadership. The U.S. is spending $86 million to help arm and train the Palestinian presidential guard which is loyal to Fatah leader, Mahmoud Abbas. This has helped pay for shipments of rifles and bullets. In January President Bush’s Deputy National Security Advisor Elliot Abrams called for a “hard coup” in the Occupied Territories to overthrow Hamas. Last week a Jordanian newspaper obtained a secret 16-page U.S. document that outlined an action plan for undermining and replacing the Palestinian national-unity government.”
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/17/1350250
Also, in case you were unaware, Israel deliberately allowed Hamas to gain power back in the 80’s and 90’s to weaken the secular PLO. Blew right in their faces if you ask me.[/quote]
What do you mean “allowed to gain power”? Please define this.
[quote]orion wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).
You can not replace Allende with Pinochet and then blow the freedom and democracy horn again. I’m afraid you’ll have to decide.
Allende was a bad man.
Pinochet was a man that did what was necessary after the Chilenian parliament begged him to do something.
[/quote]
Allende was democratically elected. He was overthrown and killed by a brutal dictator.
You can’t overthrow a democratically elected leader because you don’t agree wihth him, and still claim to want to bring democracy to the world.
You can’t pressure the Palestines to have elections and then turn your back on them because they didn’t elect the guys you wanted.
With democracy comes respect for other peoples opinions.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
…
What do you mean “allowed to gain power”? Please define this.[/quote]
From Wikipedia:
"According to the U.S. State Dept,[13] Hamas is funded by Iran (led by a Shiite Islamic regime), Palestinian expatriates, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. The party is known to support families of suicide bombers after their deaths. Some believe the financial support includes a monthly allowance.[51]
However, various sources, among them United Press International,[52] Le Canard encha?n?, Bill Baar, G?rard Chaliand[53] and L’Humanit?[54] have highlighted that Hamas’ early growth ? before its official founding and the creation of the military branch ? had been supported by the Mossad as a “counterbalance to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)”.
Furthermore, the French investigative newspaper Le Canard encha?n? stated that Shin Bet had also supported Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO and Fatah, in an attempt to give “a religious slant to the conflict, in order to make the West believe that the conflict was between Jews and Muslims”, thus supporting the controversial thesis of a “clash of civilizations”.[55]"
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Huh? They just refuse to accept a Palestine that wants to wipe Israel off the map. As soon as the Palestinian leaders renounce this desire and stop firing rockets into Israel things will change. [/quote]
Yeah, right! We all know where it got Arafat.
A piece of advice; Don’t try chicken-eggs arguments on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as you’ll always end up losing them.
Exactly. I just wanted to make sure you knew that the “spreading democracy” card only has value when used inside the US. The rest of the world that’s been watching and learning don’t buy it for one second.
If any other country on Earth was arming rebels to try and topple an elected government, you’ll be shouting terrorism on roof tops. Yet, when you do it, there’s always silence from the American media.
It’s a controversial issue and that’s why I purposely used ambiguous wording. What’s for sure is that people in within the Israeli establishment have denounced the tactic.
Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, “Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)”.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
You get to vote, courtesy of quite a few dead Americans buried in your ‘backyard’. That’s the difference.
Ooh! So, now you’re sacrificing your lives to give others the right to vote? How altruistic!
Gimme a break!
The only reason your troops budge an inch is to protect your economic interests and give you control over strategic areas.
Explain to us why Washington was the first to congratulate Carmona when he used force to overthrow the DEMOCRATICALLY elected president in 2002. Explain to us why the reaction of the “free press” was to hail the coup.
Explain Mossadeq’s toppling. Explain the refusal to acknowledge Hamas as legitimate Palestinian government.
You only acknowledge democracy when the winner is on your side.[/quote]
Well of course, what’s wrong with that? I like it when we win. The American style domcracy is the best and we happily encourage other countries to follow our lead.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).[/quote]
The bigger problem is getting Americans to understand how their own government works. No not in the fairyland textbook style but in reality.
There is a massive difference between what the public thinks is going on and how the reality plays out on the world stage. Corporate, military and government propaganda rule the major news outlets and filter the information so you see what they want you to see. Then the audience bases all of their arguements and feelings on half-truths. This is the major reason there is such a gulf of opinions between America and most of the world.
What tribal chieftans are blowing up oil tankers? I do know that Cheveron were involved in murdering people of the Nigerian Delta.
Also you might want to alert the Venezualians that they keep voting in a dictator who wants to enslave them. In fact they do so in landslide victories so you’d better hurry up!
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).
The bigger problem is getting Americans to understand how their own government works. No not in the fairyland textbook style but in reality.
There is a massive difference between what the public thinks is going on and how the reality plays out on the world stage. Corporate, military and government propaganda rule the major news outlets and filter the information so you see what they want you to see. Then the audience bases all of their arguements and feelings on half-truths. This is the major reason there is such a gulf of opinions between America and most of the world.
What tribal chieftans are blowing up oil tankers? I do know that Cheveron were involved in murdering people of the Nigerian Delta.
Also you might want to alert the Venezualians that they keep voting in a dictator who wants to enslave them. In fact they do so in landslide victories so you’d better hurry up![/quote]
What happened in the 1920’s and 1930’s when Britain could no longer police the globe? International investments were confiscated, 3rd world countries repudiated their debts, and we had a Great Depression.
Why wouldn’t Venezuelans vote for Chavez? He promises to loot the oil companies and give them the money. Being like most people, short-term thinkers, they think that they can get away with it. Now, what happens when someone thinks of building a factory or some other sort of investment in Venezuela?
Would YOU invest your money there? Nope. The Venezuelans will suffer just like the Mexicans — lots of oil money and no jobs. Uhhh…yeah…good luck with the long term plan there, guys…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:
…
You only acknowledge democracy when the winner is on your side.
Well of course, what’s wrong with that? I like it when we win. The American style domcracy is the best and we happily encourage other countries to follow our lead.
[/quote]
There’s a difference between “I like to win” and “I cheat when I loose”.
In a democracy, you win some, you loose some. When you can’t accept loss, you need to grow up.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
orion wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).
You can not replace Allende with Pinochet and then blow the freedom and democracy horn again. I’m afraid you’ll have to decide.
Allende was a bad man.
Pinochet was a man that did what was necessary after the Chilenian parliament begged him to do something.
Allende was democratically elected. He was overthrown and killed by a brutal dictator.
You can’t overthrow a democratically elected leader because you don’t agree wihth him, and still claim to want to bring democracy to the world.
You can’t pressure the Palestines to have elections and then turn your back on them because they didn’t elect the guys you wanted.
With democracy comes respect for other peoples opinions.[/quote]
He was elected and in part because he promised not to do a lot of things he started to do immediately after having been elected.
After having ruined Chile`s economy and after ruining foreign relations the parliament urged the Chilenian military to intervene which it did.
Oh, I make no bones about it. When democracy has elected a group that parades children around in suicide vests-teaching them an old Islamic based mythology that Jews are the descendants of Apes and pigs-I don’t really give a damn that an election was held.
[quote]orion wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
orion wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).
You can not replace Allende with Pinochet and then blow the freedom and democracy horn again. I’m afraid you’ll have to decide.
Allende was a bad man.
Pinochet was a man that did what was necessary after the Chilenian parliament begged him to do something.
Allende was democratically elected. He was overthrown and killed by a brutal dictator.
You can’t overthrow a democratically elected leader because you don’t agree wihth him, and still claim to want to bring democracy to the world.
You can’t pressure the Palestines to have elections and then turn your back on them because they didn’t elect the guys you wanted.
With democracy comes respect for other peoples opinions.
He was elected and in part because he promised not to do a lot of things he started to do immediately after having been elected.
After having ruined Chile`s economy and after ruining foreign relations the parliament urged the Chilenian military to intervene which it did.
[/quote]
He was democratically elected. In any democracy, the parliament has the power to impeach a president, withing eggin the military on to plan a coup.
Perhaps certain elements in the Chilean parlianent weren’t quite certain they could defeat their opponent with democracy. They should be hanged for treason.
And being from Austria, you should probably reread the recent history of your country. You can’t get sloppy with democracy.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Oh, I make no bones about it. When democracy has elected a group that parades children around in suicide vests-teaching them an old Islamic based mythology that Jews are the descendants of Apes and pigs-I don’t really give a damn that an election was held.
[/quote]
Aren’t we all descendants of apes and pigs?
Or were wercreated by God on a the 7th day?
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, I make no bones about it. When democracy has elected a group that parades children around in suicide vests-teaching them an old Islamic based mythology that Jews are the descendants of Apes and pigs-I don’t really give a damn that an election was held.
Aren’t we all descendants of apes and pigs?
Or were wercreated by God on a the 7th day?[/quote]
Is this a serious question?