[quote]snipeout wrote:
I don’t take offense. I wouldn’t expect any foreigner or secular progressive (you or any one else) to understand why our government has done what it has done. […]
I am aware of everything the US has done. You people view things different than alot of Americans do. [/quote]
Too many Americans share my views for you to dismiss them in this manner.
I perfectly know the danger that the Soviets represented. However, your claim that the US did it to protect other countries is extremely naive. The US only acts when its interests are at stake.
I’m not crazy. I never said the US had a monopoly on violence, interventionism or evil. Anyone who claims that is probably crazy.
Yes, the Soviets were BAD. No question about that. But you claimed in your previous post that the US was somehow “freeing” others and “spreading democracy”. I pointed out to the falsehood, naivety and one-sidedness of that statement and you nonetheless manage to lecture me on black/white/shades of gray. Please read my posts more carefully and reply based on what’s in them and NOT whatever your imagination tells you about my beliefs. I’d appreciate it very much.
Note that your accusations of him being on the Soviet payroll are still considered allegations in scholarly circle. The US involvement in his murder are rock solid facts.
Yeah and with Russias’ great track record for human rights and free society they should be comparing us to Nazi Germany… How long has it been since they gassed a theater full of their own people to conquer a few Chechen rebels? Funny an ex-KGB agent comparing the US to Nazis.
Putin is an evil man.[/quote]
Yup, but he would have been a damned useful ally.
Yet another foreign policy blunder by the Bush administration. Russia can get away with more than the U.S. can and they border most of the M.E. They also have oil and are a huge player in OPEC. We should have sent Putin several dozen high priced hookers, Cuban cigars, fine American beer (well maybe some microbrews any way), free grain, etc. With Putin in our pocket this whole war on Isalmo-Facism, terror or what ever you want to call it would be looking totally different. The terrorists may snub their nose at the U.S., but they still fear Russia. Plus, we’d be paying $.80 for gas right now.
But, we put ideology in the way of strategic alliance.
Yeah and with Russias’ great track record for human rights and free society they should be comparing us to Nazi Germany… How long has it been since they gassed a theater full of their own people to conquer a few Chechen rebels? Funny an ex-KGB agent comparing the US to Nazis.
Putin is an evil man.
Yup, but he would have been a damned useful ally.
Yet another foreign policy blunder by the Bush administration. Russia can get away with more than the U.S. can and they border most of the M.E. They also have oil and are a huge player in OPEC. We should have sent Putin several dozen high priced hookers, Cuban cigars, fine American beer (well maybe some microbrews any way), free grain, etc. With Putin in our pocket this whole war on Isalmo-Facism, terror or what ever you want to call it would be looking totally different. The terrorists may snub their nose at the U.S., but they still fear Russia. Plus, we’d be paying $.80 for gas right now.
But, we put ideology in the way of strategic alliance.
[/quote]
He never would have been an ally. He is a rival and he always intended to be.
He is like Lucifer, better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
lixy wrote:
snipeout wrote:
We funded cuban and various other latin american rebels in an attempt to overthrow despots.
Allende was a democratically elected leader and you overthrew him to install despotic Pinochet. The list of the popular elected regimes you overthrew is very long.
Don’t take this as an offense, but you are lacking basic historical knowledge. There are plenty of uncontreversial cases which have been extensively documented in declassified documents and even presented before the International Court of Justice.
Allende was a crook who stole from the world. He “nationalized” industry and defaulted on loans. Over 60% of the voters in Chile voted against him.
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).
Yeah and with Russias’ great track record for human rights and free society they should be comparing us to Nazi Germany… How long has it been since they gassed a theater full of their own people to conquer a few Chechen rebels? Funny an ex-KGB agent comparing the US to Nazis.
Putin is an evil man.
Yup, but he would have been a damned useful ally.
Yet another foreign policy blunder by the Bush administration. Russia can get away with more than the U.S. can and they border most of the M.E. They also have oil and are a huge player in OPEC. We should have sent Putin several dozen high priced hookers, Cuban cigars, fine American beer (well maybe some microbrews any way), free grain, etc. With Putin in our pocket this whole war on Isalmo-Facism, terror or what ever you want to call it would be looking totally different. The terrorists may snub their nose at the U.S., but they still fear Russia. Plus, we’d be paying $.80 for gas right now.
But, we put ideology in the way of strategic alliance.
He never would have been an ally. He is a rival and he always intended to be.
He is like Lucifer, better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.[/quote]
I don’t know, I sensed he could be turned. Prior to 9/11 the US did seem to be fostering that relationship a bit. I guess we’ll never know for sure. Things are as the are.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).[/quote]
Last I checked this was happening with U.S. leadership being around…
p.s. Mugabe is a bastard that deserves to die a horrible horrible death.
[quote]Ren wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).
Last I checked this was happening with U.S. leadership being around…
p.s. Mugabe is a bastard that deserves to die a horrible horrible death.[/quote]
Yes, we do need the world community to ‘have our backs’. This is not the 1950’s, when the USA had little debt problems.
Yes, we do need the world community to ‘have our backs’. This is not the 1950’s, when the USA had little debt problems.
[/quote]
And the way to make this happen is diplomacy and tact. Something that in my opinion the current administration has shown little of. We need to remember that our goals might not align with the countries we consider allies. And if they don’t, these countries are still with us, cos friends argue.
Showing greater recognition to the needs, problems, and desires of our allies and their constituents would go a long way in improving international relations.
The problem lies when some friendly countries can’t see the veil in front of their eyes. Like my home country, South Africa, which refuses to recognize the human rights violations and heinous crimes committed by Mugabe against his people. In those cases some solid stiff arm diplomacy is needed, preferably with a few good friends peering over our shoulder.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution
Replace “America” with “Caliphate” and you end up with Ben-Laden’s ideology in a nutshell. [/quote]
A Caliphate is a free and just society? Why do I have the feeling that my being a libertarian atheist in a Caliphate is a much riskier proposition than in any Western nation?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).[/quote]
We just a peek behind the scenes when we read Zaps outburst.
Also snipeouts comments were quite revealing.
That whole freedom and democracy crap is just a facade.
When America’s interests are at stake, democracy and sovereignity are quickly cast aside. Because the bad guys do the same thing.
Well, if that’s true, what’s the difference between the US and the bad guys then?
[quote]pookie wrote:
lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution
Replace “America” with “Caliphate” and you end up with Ben-Laden’s ideology in a nutshell.
A Caliphate is a free and just society? Why do I have the feeling that my being a libertarian atheist in a Caliphate is a much riskier proposition than in any Western nation?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
A VERY big problem is foreigners understanding of how the world works. They assume that the world would go merrily along w/o U.S. leadership, the oil would flow, the commerce would continue, international investments would be safe, and so on.
This is a completely false view. Tribal chieftains around the world would be thrilled to blow up the oil tankers, burn down the factories and refineries, and murder foreigners with a joyful chuckles. Using ‘in the name of the PEOPLE’, they would not hesitate to enslave their people — look at Chavez in Venezuela or Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Look at the monsters who run the Islamic whackjob ‘republics’.
Either follow America to a free and just society, or sink into the slavery and destitution (while shouting Allah u Akbar the whole time).[/quote]
You can not replace Allende with Pinochet and then blow the freedom and democracy horn again. I’m afraid you’ll have to decide.
The ‘muslim scum’ tag is from the new president of France, btw. I like him; he says it like it is.
[/quote]
I would not doubt that in private Sarkozy calls muslims “scum”; however, he never called muslims scum. During last years suburban riots, he suggested to “karcheriser la raquaille”. " Karcheriser" is a verb taken from a pressure washer and raquaille can be translated as scum. “Clean up the scum” if you like. Nonetheless, he was referring to the mostly immigrant young people taking part in those revolts. They were not necessarily muslim…In any case it wasn’t a muslim revolt, but a revolt of very poor kids who stand no chance of getting a job or having a decent life in France.