The Wisdom of Ayn Rand

three little things :

-strictly speaking, your agricultural scientist doesn’t produce anything by himself and himself alone. “the most resistant and productive crops the world had ever known” are the work of… workers.

and even if he was…

-in our real world, he would not be the one making billions with his brilliant ideas.

and even if he was…

-the good he does doesn’t stop him to do the good Tirib ask him to do.

btw, the “virtue of selfishness” is not exactly a radical and subversive proposition, it’s a very old and very tired philosophical topos. If i had to choose, i would prefer Bentham’s version. which date back to 1787.

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It is almost impossible, even if you had a graduate degree in point missing, to have missed mine by a larger multiple of light years than you did.

Burn your Rand books. Do it today before it’s too late.[/quote]

Then change the scenario any way you like. Should I volunteer my time to a soup kitchen, rather than my agricultural pursuit?

The thing people always miss it that while I truly enjoy her works, I recognize the faults in her philosophy. What I cannot ever get past is that whenever she is attacked, it is never about what she actually said. Virtually all attacks are of the strawman variety. This, in itself, seems suspicious to me. It indicates that there is something about her philosophy that scares the living shit out of some people.[/quote]

Alright lets keep it sane up in here. The reason there have been so many straw man arguments as noted by your observation is because nearly every post by every poster is a wall of text that is causing major mind fucks.

Every ‘proper’ debate needs a moderator to keep shit straight. Being the intuitive individual I am, I volunteer to be the moderator here.

Okay let’s start now - I’ll be as cordial as possible:

JEATON, please summarise coherently and concisely, preferably in bullet point form, the ideas of Ayn Rand that you disagree or think contradict each other.

Then please list two examples of straw man arguments you perceive to have been presented in this thread.

Finish your post with a general comment or statement you think is appropriate to steer this discussion forward. You are the OP and have the privilege to regain some sense of civility in this discussion (if that is at all possible in PWI).

[quote]kamui wrote:
three little things :

-strictly speaking, your agricultural scientist doesn’t produce anything by himself and himself alone. “the most resistant and productive crops the world had ever known” are the work of… workers.

and even if he was…

-in our real world, he would not be the one making billions with his brilliant ideas.

and even if he was…

-the good he does doesn’t stop him to do the good Tirib ask him to do.

btw, the “virtue of selfishness” is not exactly a radical and subversive proposition, it’s a very old and very tired philosophical topos. If i had to choose, i would prefer Bentham’s version. which date back to 1787.

[/quote]

Did you read anything before making this completely irrelevant post?

Your first point is a masterpiece of idiocy.

Your second point is meaningless.

And the third…you just did not get it did you.

oh i know, it was just a little fable, not a socio-economical essay.
the characters are symbolic. the story is not meant to be a realistic one, etc.

But that’s the problem : you can’t, and Rand can’t, simplify and reduce the complexity of the real world to “make a point”.

you said

[quote]
I take a deep breath, repressing the urge to bitch slap him, and remind him that my work and efforts, my productive ability, has saved the lives of literally hundreds of millions of people. In my efforts to give the very best of my true ability I have benefited the world more than he could ever imagine.[/quote]

then you said

but, in this story, strictly speaking, your scientist character does NOT produce more than your evil tirib.
the two characters, as far as we can tell, produce only ideas. agricultural ones or charitable and religious ones, but ideas in both case.

none of you actually produce anything in this story.
both of you distribute money, which stimulate consumption and the productive work of other. but that’s all.

maybe you are the one who “don’t get it” here.

ok, maybe i didn’t get that your “agricultural scientist” is actually a very successful crop worker and that you were just telling us that “winning investment is economically better than charity”
as if both were mutually exclusive…

[quote]kamui wrote:
your scientist character does NOT produce more than your evil tirib.
the two characters, as far as we can tell, produce only ideas. agricultural ones or charitable and religious ones, but ideas in both case.

none of you actually produce anything in this story.
both of you distribute money, which stimulate consumption and the productive work of other. but that’s all.

[/quote]

Are you fucking stupid?

probably.

so, enlighten me, explain what’s so stupid in this quote.

Gittnitdone wrote: …

OK, I will play along as my time permits.

Lets start with the assumption that philosophy is the attempt to develop a systematic approach to dealing with the fundamental problems of life and to set standards and goals by which to conduct ourselves. As such, one’s philosophy must be rational and congruent. What is my purpose, what does it all mean, and how should I conduct myself?

In the interest of time, I will agree to the Wiki definition of Rands philosophy of Objectivism which is: Objectivism holds that reality exists independent of consciousness, that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive and deductive logic, that the proper moral purpose of one’s life is the pursuit of one’s own happiness or rational self-interest, that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights, embodied in laissez faire capitalism, and that the role of art in human life is to transform man’s widest metaphysical ideas, by selective reproduction of reality, into a physical form?a work of art?that he can comprehend and to which he can respond emotionally.

Critics are quick to interpret this as meaning that it is all about materialism, greed, hedonism, with a healthy dose of Machiavellian ethics thrown in as well. This is all they do. They call on these four easily assailable strawmen and go on a moral crusade as though this is what she actually taught when in fact it is virtually the polar opposite of what she taught.

The most popular method on this board is to bring up the topic of altruism by using any other definition BUT the one she uses to define it. They love to conflate it with charity, as she is openly indifferent as to whether charity was a major virtue and definitely did not consider it a moral duty. “There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them. I regard charity as a marginal issue.”

The argument goes something along the lines of “Rand believes altruism is evil and everyone knows that altruism is simply be charitable and helping others, you know, common human decency.” Then everyone who has never read one of her books thinks “well what a despicable cunt she must have been to believe such as this.” Except that this is not what she said and this is nowhere near the definition she clearly stated for altruism which is as follows: (forgive the cut and paste but this is such a central issue that it is necessary)

"What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.

Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice?which means; self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction?which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

Do not hide behind such superficialalities as whether you should or should not give a dime to a beggar. That is not the issue. The issue is whether you do or do not have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. The issue is whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem will answer: ?No.? Altruism says: ?Yes.?

Call me insane, but I believe the difference between these two definitions is very material to the judgement of the philosophy.

That’s all the time I have for the night…

[quote]kamui wrote:
probably.

so, enlighten me, explain what’s so stupid in this quote. [/quote]

“…your scientist character does NOT produce more than your evil tirib.
the two characters, as far as we can tell, produce only ideas. agricultural ones or charitable and religious ones, but ideas in both case.”

One produces the technology and tools to feed hundreds of millions of people and the other asks for money (ideas?) and the first does not produce more than the second?

“he produce technology and tools”
really ?
how ?
i’m so stupid you will have to describe the process.

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible.
[/quote]

Can you please briefly elaborate what you mean when you say ‘kindness/goodwill/respect are consequences and not primaries.’

[quote]kamui wrote:
three little things :

-strictly speaking, your agricultural scientist doesn’t produce anything by himself and himself alone. “the most resistant and productive crops the world had ever known” are the work of… workers.

and even if he was…

-in our real world, he would not be the one making billions with his brilliant ideas.

and even if he was…

-the good he does doesn’t stop him to do the good Tirib ask him to do.

btw, the “virtue of selfishness” is not exactly a radical and subversive proposition, it’s a very old and very tired philosophical topos. If i had to choose, i would prefer Bentham’s version. which date back to 1787.

[/quote]

Bentham?

Talk about inane ramblings.

What do you prefer?

His OCD micromanagement of society or his utilitarianism which, by the way, rejected redistribution because it would, over time slow down, if not halt the growth of overall utility?

[quote]kamui wrote:
“he produce technology and tools”
really ?
how ?
i’m so stupid you will have to describe the process.

[/quote]

He produces the know how how to combine work and capital in infinitely more productive ways?

That he needs to buy production goods and hire workers is all well and good, however they get whatever the market bears, the very fact that he makes infinitely more is due to the fact that his contribution is that much more valuable to other people.

JEATON is trying to show me than his agricultural scientist “produces technology and tools” (when i say he “produces” only the ideas of such technology and tools, and, admittedly, distributes the money to do it).

you’re not helping him here.

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Do you have an opinion on her atheism?[/quote]

I would like to know this as well.

A little light reading:

As a life-long atheist Rand rejected organized religion and specifically Christianity, which she decreed “the best kindergarten of communism possible.” More recent Objectivists have argued that religion is incompatible with American ideals, and the Christian right poses a threat to individual rights. Objectivists have argued against faith-based initiatives, displaying religious symbols in government facilities, and the teaching of “intelligent design” in public schools.

Discuss.[/quote]

Sounds like a religious hating liberal. Hmmm…

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Personally, I think it’s a bad sign when a book like that doesn’t have any noticeable impact on a very impressionable, politically-astute 15 year old.[/quote]

I say it is because you were beat regularly and know your place. :wink:

[quote]optheta wrote:
The only good thing that came about Ayn Rand was Bioshock.[/quote]

Damn…inb4 me.

Although, she did suggest people follow Natural Law. However, I am not sure if she understood it…

[quote]kamui wrote:
JEATON is trying to show me than his agricultural scientist “produces technology and tools” (when i say he “produces” only the ideas of such technology and tools, and, admittedly, distributes the money to do it).

you’re not helping him here. [/quote]

The idea is the most important part, not to mention that capital goods he aquires are nothing if not idea based themselves.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Do you have an opinion on her atheism?[/quote]

I would like to know this as well.

A little light reading:

As a life-long atheist Rand rejected organized religion and specifically Christianity, which she decreed “the best kindergarten of communism possible.” More recent Objectivists have argued that religion is incompatible with American ideals, and the Christian right poses a threat to individual rights. Objectivists have argued against faith-based initiatives, displaying religious symbols in government facilities, and the teaching of “intelligent design” in public schools.

Discuss.[/quote]

Sounds like a religious hating liberal. Hmmm…[/quote]

Sounds like a bullshit hating rationalist, whatever the affiliation.

why ?

[quote]JEATON wrote:<<< What if I were an agricultural scientist, the best the world had seen, with a driving passion to develop the most resistant and productive crops the world had ever known. Now, because the world population is growing in leaps and bounds, my services are are in great demand. I make billion$. And by the way, I demand a premium for my efforts. >>>[/quote]I missed the part about where you told me if you were an actually redeemed new creature in Christ Jesus or not, which was THE point. [quote]JEATON wrote:<<< I tell Tirib to go jump up his own ass. Get the fuck out of my office and never step foot on my property again. >>>[/quote]And with this kind of unbridled tongue the apostle James tells me to have my doubts. (James 3)

Tirib being in your office would never happen. I would not seek nor would I accept (to quote LBJ) 10 cents or one trillion dollars from ANY source other than a fellow disciple of Christ for a bunch of reasons. However, this is where you really missed it. Tirib is not asking for money. Tirib is giving HIS OWN money away. To hand picked destinations determined by a committee of godly brethren (and sistren =] ) who also would rather not open their eyes tomorrow morning if it not be for the advancement and glory of the alone true and living God and His Christ. In fact no position of responsibility in my company would be filled by anybody not having this credible testimony.

There are dozens of particulars I can instantly think of under all kinds of varied and diverse conditions and circumstances. The one thing all of this would have in common for sure would be it’s utter repugnance in the eyes of Ayn Rand and the sick world she hails from. The world that James also said to be friends with was to make one an enemy of God. Pick your side.