The War on Drugs

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

So, on the one hand, the addict–distinct from the drug user–by definition cannot make responsible choices, and on the other hand, the drug user cannot be abandoned by Society as “having made his own choice”–someone pays.
Ain’t no absolute winners in this discussion.[/quote]

Well said, on a number of levels, Doc - and I concur with a lot of it. After all, my “scenario” of absolute liberty/absolute responsibility is a hypothetical, presented as Devil’s advocacy to highlight the problems and, indeed, absurdities of any “perfect fix”.

Suddenly we see a world of libertarian drug-users having to face uncomfortable choices when other non-drug users get to exercise absolute freedom as well - and suddenly the concept of spreading risk across a “society” (whether publicly or privately) takes on a new, sobering importance.

Society will always have to absorb the costs of the bad choices of some of its members in the Real World, we can’t escape it, nor should we, if we want to live in a civilized society. The “absorption” should be limited - I am not championing Universal Health Care - but there will always be some element of it.

That said, if society is going to dole out some benefits and help underwrite the risks if individual drug use, society reserves the right to issue some conditions of its own, just as any insurance pool would. Those conditions include, at its most base level, disapproval of the activities that continue to be a drain on society with no added benefit - which is precisely what drug use amounts to.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Sloth wrote:

…freedom for employers…

Glad you raised this, I did not - all employers should retain the right to refuse to hire anyone who does drugs, and the right to can any drug-users.

Alcohol and Nicotine are drugs.

No skin off my nose.

Employers can’t deny a job because someone smokes or indulges in the occasional drink.

I do believe they can deny you a job for smoking or being over weight

At any rate, alcohol is far worse than something like marijuana.[/quote]

Totally agree

Did any one catch this, I recorded it and will watch it soon

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Did any one catch this, I recorded it and will watch it soon

http://www.cnbc.com/id/28284116[/quote]

yeah I seen it, pretty much another propaganda piece. The reporter should have made the statement that the violence surrounding pot is due to it’s prohibition not it’s use.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I think Cockney blue said it well; every body?s problems come down to life style. Why do you designate illegal drug users as some one that should be out of the realm of charity?

What would you say to making all drugs prescript able from a Doctor. Then could you live with drug users being part of society?

Because “charity” need not be wasted on someone undertaking that extreme of a risk compared to other ones. “Charity”, however you define it, is a limited amount of resources - and every dollar you give to someone who tried a hard drug is a dollar taken away from someone who didn’t take such an extreme risk or is suffering “bad luck”.

Drug users are not victims - they are seeking a hedonistic pleasure, and doing so with knowledge of potential addiction, health risks, etc. They are making an individual choice because it is worth it to them - but if it goes sour, it isn’t because they were “unlucky” or a “victim of circumstances.”

They are not the kind of folks charity operates to help.

Hilarious, by the way - the Lions roaring for the legalization of drug use in the name of the Individual suddenly turn into Lambs bleating about the injustice of not being coddled and nursed to health by their Brethren when their Individual choices have unwanted consequences.
[/quote]

I would argue that they are exactly the people that true charity is there to help. Charity is about giving without any thought of the benefit back to you. The people most in need of Charity are those that are too stupid or too sick to help themselves crawl out of the situation they are in.

You are not talking about Charity you are talking about an investment. That is something different.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I think Cockney blue said it well; every body?s problems come down to life style. Why do you designate illegal drug users as some one that should be out of the realm of charity?

What would you say to making all drugs prescript able from a Doctor. Then could you live with drug users being part of society?

Because “charity” need not be wasted on someone undertaking that extreme of a risk compared to other ones. “Charity”, however you define it, is a limited amount of resources - and every dollar you give to someone who tried a hard drug is a dollar taken away from someone who didn’t take such an extreme risk or is suffering “bad luck”.

Drug users are not victims - they are seeking a hedonistic pleasure, and doing so with knowledge of potential addiction, health risks, etc. They are making an individual choice because it is worth it to them - but if it goes sour, it isn’t because they were “unlucky” or a “victim of circumstances.”

They are not the kind of folks charity operates to help.

Hilarious, by the way - the Lions roaring for the legalization of drug use in the name of the Individual suddenly turn into Lambs bleating about the injustice of not being coddled and nursed to health by their Brethren when their Individual choices have unwanted consequences.

My reasoning for advocating the legalization of drugs is both liberal in the fact that we do not put alcohol, cigarette, Mac Donald, Dunkin Donut, consumers in prison. Why should we put drug users in prison? And conservative in the sense that not doing so would save an enormous amount of money. All the states and the Federal Gov. are clamoring at ways to trim the budget. This is a way, it would be a boon in the sense that a new source of tax revenue and a huge saving in law enforcement and penitentiary expenditures. We already are paying the medical bills for most drug users, so where is the down side?
[/quote]

I think both sides of the political spectrum accept this, they are just scared to be the ones to suggest it because it is seen as not being a vote winner.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Sloth wrote:

…freedom for employers…

Glad you raised this, I did not - all employers should retain the right to refuse to hire anyone who does drugs, and the right to can any drug-users.

[/quote]

Would they also have the right to refuse to employ anyone who plays a sport or lifts weights? They are likely to lose productive working days due to sports related injuries.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Sloth wrote:

…freedom for employers…

Glad you raised this, I did not - all employers should retain the right to refuse to hire anyone who does drugs, and the right to can any drug-users.

Would they also have the right to refuse to employ anyone who plays a sport or lifts weights? They are likely to lose productive working days due to sports related injuries.[/quote]

I would think they could refuse to hire anyone for any reason, with in reason, but even if the reason was illegal all they would have to do is lie

pittbulll, I take it you have never worked in a situation where you had to hire and fire people…

In the UK, if a black lesbian turns up for an interview in a wheelchair, the other applicants might as well go home.

As an employer you have to be able to show that your recruitment processes are transparent and fair.

Most companies are not very good at this. If the person that is refused the job wants to take them to some sort of tribunal they are screwed unless they can produce documented processes for the recruitment, all of the notes from every stage of the recruitment process and a quantitive scoring mechanism showing why the selected candidate got the job.

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Did any one catch this, I recorded it and will watch it soon

yeah I seen it, pretty much another propaganda piece. The reporter should have made the statement that the violence surrounding pot is due to it’s prohibition not it’s use.
[/quote]

You will rarely find mainstream news sources going against the grain. They all benefit from its prohibition.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pittbulll, I take it you have never worked in a situation where you had to hire and fire people…

In the UK, if a black lesbian turns up for an interview in a wheelchair, the other applicants might as well go home.

As an employer you have to be able to show that your recruitment processes are transparent and fair.

Most companies are not very good at this. If the person that is refused the job wants to take them to some sort of tribunal they are screwed unless they can produce documented processes for the recruitment, all of the notes from every stage of the recruitment process and a quantitive scoring mechanism showing why the selected candidate got the job.[/quote]

America is not like that, Especially in Arizona you can fire any one for any reason . with in reason.

Cool, I am moving my operation to Arizona. The labour laws here in Mexico are actually tighter than the ones in the UK.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Cool, I am moving my operation to Arizona. The labour laws here in Mexico are actually tighter than the ones in the UK.[/quote]

Arizona has a very good business environment. What do you do?

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Cool, I am moving my operation to Arizona. The labour laws here in Mexico are actually tighter than the ones in the UK.[/quote]

You wouldn’t like it there.

People have guns.

:stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Cool, I am moving my operation to Arizona. The labour laws here in Mexico are actually tighter than the ones in the UK.

You wouldn’t like it there.

People have guns.

:P[/quote]

5 here

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Did any one catch this, I recorded it and will watch it soon

yeah I seen it, pretty much another propaganda piece. The reporter should have made the statement that the violence surrounding pot is due to it’s prohibition not it’s use.
[/quote]

I watched it last night, I totally agree. They need to elect a new sheriff. Especially if what he says is true and 60% of the people are tied to marijuana production. Elect a Sheriff that does not want to cut off his nose to spite his face

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Cool, I am moving my operation to Arizona. The labour laws here in Mexico are actually tighter than the ones in the UK.

Arizona has a very good business environment. What do you do?
[/quote]

Business process outsourcing, basically we take US jobs and offshore them to places with a lower cost base. :wink:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Cool, I am moving my operation to Arizona. The labour laws here in Mexico are actually tighter than the ones in the UK.

Arizona has a very good business environment. What do you do?

Business process outsourcing, basically we take US jobs and offshore them to places with a lower cost base. ;-)[/quote]

Sweet:0

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Cool, I am moving my operation to Arizona. The labour laws here in Mexico are actually tighter than the ones in the UK.

Arizona has a very good business environment. What do you do?

Business process outsourcing, basically we take US jobs and offshore them to places with a lower cost base. :wink:

Sweet:0[/quote]

The irony is that I am currently working for the Mexican division and we are constantly working to compete against work being moved from here to even cheaper locations. That is one of the potential problems with offshoring, there is always somewhere cheaper. And what happens to the area that you have made dependent on your jobs and incomes when the work moves on to a cheaper location.

If it is done correctly you have a growth path and as each location matures you increase the complexity of the type of work that it does. If it is done incorrectly you fuck up the local economy.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Cool, I am moving my operation to Arizona. The labour laws here in Mexico are actually tighter than the ones in the UK.

Arizona has a very good business environment. What do you do?

Business process outsourcing, basically we take US jobs and offshore them to places with a lower cost base. :wink:

Sweet:0

The irony is that I am currently working for the Mexican division and we are constantly working to compete against work being moved from here to even cheaper locations. That is one of the potential problems with offshoring, there is always somewhere cheaper. And what happens to the area that you have made dependent on your jobs and incomes when the work moves on to a cheaper location.

If it is done correctly you have a growth path and as each location matures you increase the complexity of the type of work that it does. If it is done incorrectly you fuck up the local economy.

[/quote]

I bet even if it is done correctly it still fucks up their economy. I personally am more protective of the jobs that drive an econmy. If you move all the jobs from Puerto Panasco Mexico to Da Nang Viet Nam. Puerto Panasco is going to be hurting.