[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Pookie my friend, I think you are a decent fella, but had we simply ignored the utterly useless UN in the first place and taken out Hussein in 92 none of this would be happening.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree. Although it had nothing to do with the UN. Here, I’ll let Dick Cheney explain to you the problem of a power vacuum in Iraq: Cheney on Invading Iraq - 9/14/1992 - YouTube
Oh yes it did and Cheney is full of shite there. We should have never ever gone into an armed conflict under UN command. I have Schwarzkopf on tape still somewhere saying that he was waiting for the order to take him out, they knew which bunker he was in and Bush said that the UN guidelines forbade him from doing so. Phil Gramm campaigned on that very issue promising to never allow our troops to go into battle under UN command and be hamstrung like that.
Further, what the hell is different about the situation now than it was then as far the power vacuum and pissing off other Arab states? Except that war was popular and we had a larger coalition and could have pulled it off with much less bad international press despite what Cheney says. It could have been done when we had less than 200 US casualties and Canada had, I believe, none. Of course there would have been more during the process that followed, but we’re doing that now anyway under much less favorable circumstances.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Just like in this country where everybody is looking for some impersonal governing body above themselves for all the answers, the socialist countries of the world, not content with even their own socialist state, want yet another body of supreme global bureaucrats that oversee the entire world.
I do not.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I’m not sure where that’s from, since I don’t either. There’s a big difference between a global government and a body that tries to foster mutual cooperation and negotiated resolutions of international conflicts.[/quote]
Let’s not play semantics. An obligatory body like you describe is a government and if it’s not obligatory it has no real authority and I vote us out. The UN is undeniably anti US and if I had my way it would be disbanded and the building used to store old copies of the congressional record, but it probably wouldn’t be big enough.
I care about mutual cooperation and negotiated resolution of conflicts only insofar as it furthers our national security and interests. We’ll decide that for ourselves until somebody gets a bigger gun which BTW is not just a nuclear arsenal.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Blix is a tool and you are beyond naive if you actually believe that Hussein did not play him and his powder puff inspectors to the hilt buying himself time to hide those weapons programs and that they would not have swung right back into action once they “passed” those idiotic inspections. That’s not even to mention that OUR CIA report demonstrated conclusively that Hussein was diverting vast sums of money from the oil for food program to his own ends.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why then even support inspections in the first place? Why not simply come out and explain why they were useless, instead of insisting on them as a condition that Saddam had to comply with?
Also, isn’t it a bit odd that you agreed with my military post about the lack of “fog or war” for the American army, but are somehow unable to imagine that technology being put to use for sanction-compliance surveillance?
If you believe that, you have to believe that Saddam was one of the greatest genius ever, able to mystify the most advanced military on the planet using crappy Soviet hand-me down tech; or that your government and military is staffed with the most slack-jawed idiots ever born who can be played for fools by some tin pot dictator.[/quote]
I didn’t support inspections. I supported the UN ph***king off and getting the hell outta my country never having say in one more policy decision involving the United States ever again.
My agreement with you had more to do with you saying “you want all the unfair you can get in real war” than your assessment of our surveillance capabilities, but you were right about that too. However, Hussein had been concealing his WMD operations from the world for quite a while by that time and was not an idiot or the tin pot dictator you make him out to be. Even our advanced tech is not foolproof and it indicates no grave incompetence on our part that we didn’t catch him in the act. Our enemies are not necessarily idiots.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Here’s the kicker. Most of the UN countries with pull there are not our friends and are hell bent on reducing our power and influence in the world.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Their motives are quite similar to your own. You also wish to increase your power and influence in the world while keeping that of your rivals to a minimum.[/quote]
EUREKA!!! That is correct. Welcome to planet Earth.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
I am hell bent on seeing that never happens for the primary and very selfish reason that it puts me in an advantageous position for which I am not ashamed.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just as long as you accept to be (either you or your distant grand kids) on the receiving end if the US ever find itself relegated to a has-been power.[/quote]
That’s inevitable eventually. Rome had it’s time and so will we. That doesn’t mean you surrender in the meantime while you’re still in a position to prevent it.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
That is the way of the world and to deny that is to deny the whole of human history.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Instead of eternally repeating history, it’d be nice to learn from it and use that knowledge to find better ways of resolving conflicts.[/quote]
Tell that to the communists who have persisted in their expansionist campaigns in a quest to forcibly export their tyrannical ways to the rest of the world. Even if we were practicing the same tactics we would at least be exporting freedom.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Secondarily, my country has been a force for more good and has spent more of it’s own blood and treasure on helping everybody else than every other country in history combined. Check it out.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I’ve never said anything to the contrary. I’ve even argued that very point in some threads where the “US = bad” crowd were, as usual, showing their complete lack of perspective.
On the other hand, simply because a country does a lot of good worldwide, and has a generous population; that doesn’t mean that it gets a free pass on what it does wrong. No country is perfect; and most situations don’t have an easy, correct solution. Criticism and dissent from one’s government is not treason; it’s one of the things that makes America - and other democratic countries - better than rogue nations ruled by dictators.[/quote]
I didn’t know and thank you for that.
Of course no country is perfect and ours is no different, but who else gives other nations views more hearing than we do? WHO? Who else would’ve respected France’s cowardly decision to not even let us fly through their airspace when it would’ve saved us tons of time and money after we saved their national asses twice in one century? Most countries would’ve said, that’s great, shoot us down if you dare, we are flying through your airspace whether you like it or not. Just as one example.
Have you not heard me dissenting with my government 5000 times since I’ve let myself get hung up in this forum?
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
On top of all the outrageous taxes we pay, Americans, and in particular self described conservative Americans, are the most voluntarily charitable people on the face of the Earth. I am sick and tired up to here with hearing how we somehow are screwing the rest of the Earth with our evil imperialism.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So according to you, the US is currently doing nothing wrong? Not a single thing could be done better? With hindsight, does even a single decision appear to have been made too hastily, or for the wrong reasons?[/quote]
The one to let the UN have any say in our national affairs comes to mind. I have a feeling your inching toward Israel here, so I will bite. You may be shocked to learn that I believe Zionism is in fact racism as some have said. I also believe that Israel plays the holocaust card to the uttermost in it’s relationship with us enabling them to appear blameless in the conflict with the Palestinians. In short I believe BOTH sides have plenty of unjust blood on their hands. Huge other topic.
However they are useful to us as a strategic ally in that region so as much as it bothers me sometimes we need to support them with very little conditions attached and I do see them as the penultimate example of how to navigate the geopolitical arena with efficient self interest. I respect that and wish we’d do a little more of it.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
We’ll decide how to deal with international affairs thanks. The UN can kiss my at the moment sweaty ass.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Go right ahead. But stop complaining when other countries don’t go along on your simple say so.[/quote]
I’m not complaining, at least not very loudly, it’d be nice to have some folks side with us more often and be on the right side of history, but if not I couldn’t care less what they think. I am decidedly not a citizen of the world. I am a proud citizen of the United States of America. Join us if you will, oppose us if you must, but for the time being we are in charge and I thank God I was born here.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Oh yeah, we just thought it might be cool if you shared some of the cost with us after having a huge chunk of your economy supported by us for like decades.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why should we share the cost of an endeavour we don’t support? It’s interesting that you argue so vehemently for the complete sovereignty of the US, but don’t extend the same rights to other sovereign nations.[/quote]
We can do it and you can’t =] Jist kiddin. I’m not trying to deny your sovereignty. I just wish you’d make the sovereign choice to have some balls a bit more often. There’s no point in denying that we have been your military welfare provider and there will never be a conflict you really support because you don’t have to. Even in Desert Storm it was blockade and escort operations. It wouldn’t even bother me too much if Canada would just admit that.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
I also know there are some Canadians who would be nodding their head up and down with everything I’ve said, I live right across the river, so I’m not inditing your whole society
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why don’t they just cross the river instead of nodding their heads?
[/quote]
They do, when they need timely and quality healthcare.