True, strength takes time and a year of newb gainz at jits trump a year of newb lifter gainz every time. I’m also a firm believer that there are different kinds of strength. My gym numbers are unimpressive, but I am what you would call “farm strong”. Farm strong is dangerous in a fight. Something happens when you “work out” 5 days a week for 12 years, even if you don’t hit the iron as often as you should.
Getting off on a tangent, I think this is part of the reason that Canadian soldiers were so effective in the world wars. Take a bunch of loggers, farmers, hunters and fishermen, many of whom were still living a pretty “frontier” lifestyle and put them up against the more urbanized population of Europe at the time and they would have been beasts. I may also be talking out my ass because I love my Country, but it kinda makes sense to me.
I grew up in Indiana and I do jits with a 47 year-old carpenter black belt who’s never lifted weights in his life. He’s “farm-strong” too. My observations aren’t the most extensive, but I’m beginning to believe that there’s three basic scenarios when it comes to strength. You can either have a big strength and/or size disparity, which is disastrous for the smaller person under almost all circumstances. You can also have a small to moderate strength or size disparity, which can be overcome by a combination of skill or gameness/willingness to be violent and endure punishment.
Then you have general strength equality, where barbell numbers cease to matter. My school’s best purple belt is a 23 year-old tank of a man who is probably around 220 and 5’9 or so. He’s a bit chubby, but he’s young and agile and in the Army and strong - REAL STRONG. If you measured it with barbells, I could probably put him to shame, but that doesn’t really matter that much because he’s Just. Strong. Enough. “Strong Enough” is probably a bit nebulous and a moving target depending on matchup, but you get to a point where getting stronger isn’t going to be the answer for you anymore.
Now I’m rambling…
I don’t have any experience in that arena, but I’d like to think there’s some truth to this. If you’ve ever read Frank Herbert, you’ll know that the best warriors in his universe were the best warriors because they had the hardest lives in the harshest conditions imaginable.
Thanks for all the insightful replies, good conversation.
Hell yeah, a Dune quote. Shaddam IV troops were survivors from the prison planet, Salusa Secundus, a hell hole where only the best survived. They was no “not qualifying” you either lived or died. Whether its science fiction or a present day bar fight, its comes down to the mental strength to win at all costs.
As a side note: during any type of military qualification (from my experience) its the ("farm strength guys/gals ) or as Batman said, the individuals who are used to hard work, that will usually come through any test. IMHO, if you only have trained in a gym, I don’t care how long or what your numbers are, you will not have the same dynamics as someone who has worked hard out in the world.
No, you are not talking out of butt. I have personal experience in working with Canadian troops in Afghanistan and a couple of other places, and, they were top tier. Hard working, well trained, and most important in austere conditions, a great sense of humor about life. Canada produces good ones.
There’s a reason why weight classes exist in competitive combat sports. The bigger the fighter, the greater raw strength they can possess. That strength differential will give the edge to the bigger fighter. This goes for strikers or grapplers.
I really do too. I love the bjj community, but I think there’s a bit of soul-searching that needs to be done. BJJ rose to popularity because of it’s demonstrable effectiveness in no rules or limited rules competitions. Sport BJJ has all kinds of rules, which is fine. The only problem I have is when schools who claim they teach self-defense don’t, and instead teach in the bubble that is a grappling competition with various rule sets.
I don’t think most people sign up for martial arts because they want to compete in something like no-gi submission-only tournaments with 10 minute time limits or IBJJF tournaments that are scored on points.
I just didn’t want to get my ass whooped ever again, and I’d like to get a good workout too. I think that’s a much more common reason for wanting to start martial arts than any competition goals.
Sadly, a lot of people with simple training goals like mine will end up in schools that aren’t doing a very good job of prioritizing that particular training goal. Someone’s using that time to show them berimbolos instead of how to move your feet, how to make your head safe, or even putting the idea in your head that making safe and making an escape is a flawless victory in a street fight.
Incidentally, the people from this self-defense school do quite well in competition too. He’s got a few pro MMA fighters (along with being a retired one himself), quite a few amateurs or aspiring amateur MMA fighters, and a handful of guys who’ve done pro-level grappling tournaments too.
Dear God I love Dune. Hell of a book, possibly my favorite sci-fi. Slightly off topic but if you liked Frank Herbert, I would definitely recommend checking out Starship Troopers. The book, not the crappy movie. The book and world are not as in-depth as dune but the description of forging a tough infantry unit are fantastic. Then again, I may be a bit biased because the Author, Rober Heinlein, graduated my Alma Mater… haha
Way ahead of you my friend. As much as I like tits and explosions, the movie just didn’t do the book any justice at all. Where were the power-suits (or whatever they were called)?
Those suits were sick! Men had little Nukes that could isolate a city block just shooting out their wrists haha. Had potential to be a fantastic movie but instead it was pretty awful, read something about how the director of the film thought that Heinlein was a fascist and tried to portray the humans in it in as negative a light as possible.
One more side note, did you see that there is talk of (re)making a Dune movie? Denis Villeneuve, the director of Blade Runner, is planning on doing it. Hope they make it worthwhile, the book is one of my all time favorite stories.
Regarding the less lethal discussion above…in my area most departments issue TAZERs, OC and batons for every officer as less lethal tools. Many departments issue a less lethal shotgun or a 37/40mm launcher with direct impact munitions to multiple (or each) car.
Training is based around a less lethal officer with a lethal cover officer. Generally, The less lethal launcher should not be the first tool deployed by the first officer on-scene. Along along this path, de-escalation techniques are encouraged HNT/CNT in SWAT ops or CIT in patrol ops.
yes, great book. If you haven’t read the Takeshi Kovacs series by Richard K. Morgan (Altered Carbon and two others) then you are in for a real pleasure. Great combat, great martial arts, intellectual writing, and let’s not forget the sex. I have read that NetFlix has made a series, I really want to check it out the next time I am in the states.
Richard K. Morgan is an excellent writer, if you read those three, check out : THIRTEEN, a novel about certain soldiers being generically altered for aggression.
Thank you for the information, it seems the departments in your area have their shit together. I especially like the tactic of a lethal cover officer for the non lethal user.
Thought for the day (2). Below is an exert from an article on the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. I was minimally involved with training the MSG at the Baghdad Embassy, when I was assigned there. I have followed the program’s progress through some instructors I know, so, when I was reading this article, I was struck by a couple of comments that will (IMO) equally apply to the discussion on Skill vs Strength.
You’ll often hear young Marines (or older ones that have managed to avoid getting hit in the face throughout their careers) say things like “MCMAP doesn’t work,” only to find that they never made it past their tan or follow on grey belts and have limited experience in any other discipline.
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_That’s a lot like a guy spending two weeks training in Brazilian jiujitsu and then walking away dismissing the entire discipline because it hasn’t made him Royce Gracie yet. Doing it doesn’t really say much about the martial art, but it does say a lot about how naive you were as you approached the mats. Learning to fight takes time, discipline, and effort – things that come from within, rather than things that can be mandated through a syllabus.
There are certainly elements of the MCMAP syllabus I learned along the way to my black belt that I didn’t feel worked particularly well for me, but just like my training in other martial arts disciplines, I approached MCMAP with the mindset that I would find what worked, adopt it into my repertoire, and strive to better understand why other techniques didn’t seem as effective, in hopes that the broader understanding would make me a more capable fighter.
Learning to defend yourself with your hands, like learning to drive or shoot, means repetition, analysis, adjustment, and trying again. If you approach the process expecting to become Randy Couture in a matter of weeks, the problem isn’t the program … it’s you.
I was going to say the exact same thing about training for a year. If I was told I had a year to prepare for the fight of my life and I had to choose between hitting the weights or training for fighting, it would be a no-brainer.
Farm strong is a thing and it is observed at a young age. The kids who grew up on farms made excellent wrestlers right out of the gate in highschool.
I did not know that Takeshi Kovacs was a book series, but I actually did watch Altered Carbon on Netflix. Great show, don’t watch with kids around haha. I will have to check out the books, thanks for the recommendation.
