They have also been specifically targeted by an angry mobs since the first incident. Hopefully for their sakes they are not completely disarmed. Rumors I have seen on the interwebs say that they have hired armed guards. Good for them, but the vast majority of us could obviously do no such thing.
This is why I own multiples of firearms that I would use for self defense. If something is taken as evidence in a self defense shooting, and it will be taken as evidence no matter how clear cut a case of self defense is, I would not be completely unarmed if angry family, or gang members show up for retaliation.
As a sane person who believes in the law and things like due process, this should be concerning. Someone’s property was confiscated and no one knows why. Even an anti gun person should find that troubling.
I am on break from the range, but, I have to work today, so, I cannot do any research. Unless this is a sealed indictment, that warrant is subjected to public records, I wonder why no reporter has asked to see the warrant? Also, their defense attorney is allowed to see any of the prosecutors evidence before trial. However, since they have not been charged with a crime (as far, as I know) he will have to file civil documents for the return of the property.
Either there is some other criminal investigation ongoing here or this is just political persecution.
Essentially, if the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that homeowners retrieved their guns and postured menacingly with them prior to a physical threat, those lawyers would be convicted of a felony.
I am also unsure if verbal threats from a few protesters would allow those two lawyers to “menace” all of the protesters walking by, or just the specific protesters who made verbal threats. I think this is where they may get bitten: pointing their weapons at the protestors walking by not threatening them.
But the protesters were on private property; they were breaking the law. It could easily be argued that a large group of people, who forced their way onto private property, could reasonably be considered a physical threat. I mean, they weren’t selling Girl Scout cookies. Pointing your gun at someone walking on a public sidewalk is one thing while pointing a gun at someone who just tore down your gate in order to trespass is something else.
Just because an activist hack of a local prosecutor has found charges to bring doesn’t mean they will stick. You don’t need to be a lawyer to read that law and find this part, not mentioned in the article you linked.
5. Subdivisions (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), (9), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to persons who are engaged in a lawful act of defense pursuant to section 563.031.
Last time I checked, defending yourself on your private property against large numbers of unwelcome trespassers with unknown intentions is well within the law. This prosecutor is just blowing smoke for idiots who don’t understand self-defense, no way will these charges ever stick.
IDK the specifics of that communitys CC&Rs so i dont know how ownership for that street works eg. is it owned by the HOA entitiy, or is it an esmt granted to residents, or is it a shared ownership among residents, etc. If those lawyers didnt have direct ownership of that road i can see it being a problem.
I dont think anyone will argue that the lawyers were not verbally threatened by a few of the protesters. But i’m not sure if that means they are then entitled to “defend/menace” the rest of the protesters who walked past posing no realistic threat.
I would assume that the guns were seized to confirm they were actual working firearms, and not airsoft or toy guns.
I’m not sure exactly what you are arguing or why it pertains to this thread, only that you seem to latch on to whatever seems to consistently lead you to the opposite conclusions of most combat forum participants, across most topics.
From a tactical point of view, it makes little sense to assume good intentions when a mob of uninvited people come to your home.
From a tactical point of view, it makes little sense to contemplate the possibility that not all of the people who are part of this group may have bad intentions.
From a tactical point of view, these two people did the best they could with what they had. Nobody was hurt and their home was not subjected to looting, vandalism or arson.
Hopefully they seek out qualified training and qualified legal counsel.
The posts i was responding to (from the OP of this thread) were regarding the legality of seizing the firearms, so i offered some thoughts and a legal article on their legal situation. It wasnt a discussion from a tactical POV.
The legality of tactics are an important concept to discuss and learn about IMO.
As well-to-do lawyers im sure they are plugged in and will hire excellent representation.
Did any of the protestors have the right to be there? They destroyed private property, the gate, in order to get there. This is just for publicity. The idea that any time would be spent trying to find something to charge them with, when no jury would convict, combined with the fact that none of the trespassers has been charged as far as I know, is ridiculous. You don’t get a free pass to break the law just because someone in power “agrees” with your message. It’s like NYC saying that large gatherings are banned, because Covid is real and dangerous, unless it’s a BLM protest. There’s the slippery slope you say doesn’t exist.
You don’t become more educated on that subject by googling what sort of wiggle room an activist hack prosecutor might have to bring politically-motivated charges that will never stick against people who did nothing wrong. Read a Massad Ayoob book on lethal force if you’d like real information about the legality of tactics in the USA.
I’m not saying this to pick on you but hopefully get you to reflect a bit. I notice a pattern where many of your thoughts in the combat forum seem to line up the way you’d expect a stereotypical woke activist’s thoughts to. Maybe I’m being unfair, but your thoughts in this forum seem to be shaped by politics and wishful thinking. It doesn’t seem like your posts here are coming from a place of training, education or experience. Sorry if I’m mis-reading you, but that’s how I’m reading you.
Have you considered what it is you’re trying to accomplish here with your posts?
I was simply responding to and continuing the line of discussion in Idaho’s post. I never said anyone was innocent or guilty and never cast blame. Just offered insight as to why the guns were seized, a legal article about the likely charges, and possible application of the law where i am unclear in the hopes that someone could fill in the blank. If you would like to switch lanes and start addressing the topic Idaho and I were discussing that would be cool. If you want to continue focusing on me personall with the passive aggressive belittlement based on previous interactions outside this thread, then that kinda sucks.
That wasn’t passive-aggressiveness. I was being direct and offering a direct observation, communicated clearly.
Let’s keep it on topic, which I’m guilty of straying away from. Politics doesn’t belong in the combat forum. Experience, training, education and good questions do.
Here’s an idea: why don’t we move away from firearms in general for a while. Personally, as a Canadian, it’s rather alienating to constantly open this thread and see things about guns, because it’s not a reality that I live with up here. In fact, it’s accurate for many parts of the world outside of the States.
@idaho, I love your write ups and hearing about your vast amount of experience, and I’d be interested in reading about some of your tactical thoughts when firearms aren’t in the equation.
From an availability standpoint, that makes sense. You need to work with whatever tools you have access to.
From a tactical perspective (and even a lethal force law perspective), violence doesn’t really line up neatly along “guns” and “no guns”. You don’t get to pick how your attacker is armed, for one.
It is also important to note that a knife or even a baseball bat is in the exact same category of force as a gun, lethal force. For a simple example, if you’re justified in defending yourself with a knife, you’re justified in defending yourself with a gun, at least in the USA. They’re both lethal force, likely to cause death or grave bodily harm.
Your body won’t care all that much either if guns are involved or not. Your organs will eventually shut down with the application of enough deadly force, no matter the instrument. A skilled fighter or powerful, aggressive individual can permanently alter your life with his bare hands.
That’s more or less how I separate categories of violence, both on the job and when I’m out-and-about. There’s lethal force situations, which present an imminent and unavoidable danger of death or great bodily harm, and violence that doesn’t meet that threshold. Lower-level violence is usually easily avoided, but if it isn’t, training a serious martial art and/or being as fast as you can be on your feet are your best options. Carrying what weapons you can and training with them is, of course, better than being unarmed.
Verbal judo is another great skill to develop for sketchy situations that may involve less-than-lethal force being used against you. Being able to stay calm, process the situation and speak in a calm way can prevent lower-level violence from ever materializing. Having the appearance of being more trouble than it is worth can also help. So lift weights, because this is T-Nation.
Otherwise, keeping your face out of your phone, walking confidently and making eye contact with people in your vicinity can be just as helpful as being jacked and menancing-looking, when it comes to getting people to leave you alone in the first place. Don’t be a target. Be alert. Be confident. Don’t put yourself in stupid situations.
I think it is a great attribute for both lethal force situations and lower level violence. Get away from the danger, however you can. It isn’t a guarantee, but nothing is. Even if you’re getting shot at, being fast and mobile makes you that much harder to hit. There’s really no downside to foot speed in any situation.
One of my proudest moments in bouncing was when I stepped outside to watch a guy get sucker-punched in that very moment. The puncher saw me start moving towards him and, knowing exactly who I was and what was likely to happen next, bolted from me in terror. There was absolutely no way I was catching that 23 year old guy who was fresh out of the Army, but I learned how nice it feels to have someone flee from you in terror. c’est la vie.
He gave the guy a black eye, apologized to all involved and was let back into the bar after a three month ban. Good local kid, got a little carried away one night.
If you have ever, or will ever need to hop a fence at a sprint, jump over walls or barriers smoothly, jump from structure to structure, use a wall to jump off of to grab something high, or jump off something high and not break your legs upon landing, then learning a little parkour might be for you. no need to learn the tricking, but if it floats your boat, go for it.
It will help develop body control, proprioception and foot-eye/hand-eye coordination along with the confidence to fully commit to those moves in the moment.
It is surprising to me how many people have trouble hopping a simple 6’ chainlink fence, or wouldnt feel comfortable jumping to and landing on a ledge 5’ away if there was a drop in between. If you have the time, and a parkour gym nearby go and give it a try. They are pretty fun to mess around in (bring your kid if you have one), and the skills translate real well to getting the hell away from a person/thing you dont want catching you.
The reason I have been concentrating on firearms over the past couple of weeks is because of the surge of novices buying their first handgun during this current atmosphere. “Defund the Police” will make many a person wake up and realize that you are responsible for your own safety. You can walk into any local gun shop in my area and shelves are basically bare. In my small bubble, I have been told by knowledgeable instructors about a large increase in accidental discharges and two self inflicted gun shot wounds from not learning the proper mechanics of the weapon. Trying to put a little knowledge out there for first time buyers.
Your point is valid, as the Tactical Thread is for all, not just me and like minded individuals. Will temper off a bit unless someone asks a specific question.